Daniel is out of chronological order.

[1still_waters]

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57042-connecting-dots-2.html#post903399 < click post #30

Yikes. That is concerning.

 

[zone]

If so, can you please provide the direct link to that direct post? It'll be on the right side with a # to the left of it. Simply click the #, then copy and paste in the url to it.

I'll try, brother. First off, nobody from Adam on down is saved without the shed blood of Jesus, nobody. If God the Father had not seen the death of His Son when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge, Creation would have ended right then, in a thunderclap. But if knowledge of that fact is required, then we are not going to see very many Old Testament saints in heaven.
a
Now let me give you a hypothetical scenario: While Jesus was on earth, there were Jews spread beyond the known world, in South Africa, China, Russia, England and elsewhere. They were reading "Oh how love I thy law, it is my meditation day and night" and praying to the G-d of their fathers. Those Jews didn't know that Jesus was even on the planet so they worshiped JHVH as best they knew how from Torah and the Writings. They were saved by the covenant G-d made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I don't think any Bible- believing conservative theologian on earth would disagree with that.

But unknown to those diaspora Jews, the Lord Jesus went to the Cross for them, is resurrected and now sits at the right hand of Authority on high. Separated by thousands of miles from Jerusalem, they knew nothing about it.

Now here’s the question: Would those diaspora Jews who couldn't get their doctrine updated, instantly become lost the moment they came into the Christian era? If we say yes, then salvation depends on having the correct doctrinal knowledge, rather than on having a right heart towards God. If we say no, which I believe to be the correct biblical position, then Jews could be saved after the Cross without knowing Jesus as their Messiah. Point being, if a Jew could be saved for one millisecond into the Christian era without a knowledge of Jesus, then a Jew in that same spiritual condition could be saved 2000 years later. Since it is a scriptural given that God blinded the Jews to the Gospel, then like it or not, that condition does exist

So a better question would be, WHY did God blind them, rather than did it happen, because Romans 11:8 says so, but not so as those Jews would be lost, Romans 11:11.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57042-connecting-dots-3.html < click # 43

 

[zone]

Yikes. That is concerning.

it gets worse.
he's been doing it all over the forum since he got here, and 2 or 3 years ago when he was here.
i'll keep posting.

you decide.

its heresy.

the exact opposite of what scriptures says.

he says Christians should be shoulder to shoulder with our brothers (unbelieving jews/Pharisees) - that means stand with unbelieving Israel who are SAVED ANYWAYS, because they appear to possibly study Torah....against the BEAST Islam.

 

[cfultz3]

that's okay, I understand the question. The new wineskins are of course the Gentile believers, the old wineskins are of course the Jewish people. From here on, I trust the Scripture for the answer:

"No man putteth a piece of undressed cloth upon an old garment; for that which should fill it up taketh from the garment, and a worse rent is made. Neither do men put new wine into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins, and both are preserved."

It is possible that Jesus is only speaking of the Gentile church in the phrase "both are preserved," but since Jesus in the whole passage is talking about both the Jewish people and the Gentile church, IMHO, it is probable that the phrase "both are preserved" is about both peoples Jesus was talking about.

preserved =

G4933
συντηρέω
suntēreō
Thayer Definition:
1) to preserve (a thing from perishing or being lost)
2) to keep within one’s self, keep in mind (a thing, lest it be forgotten)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4862 and G5083
Citing in TDNT: 8:151, 1174

 

[1still_waters]

Therapon. Can you clarify for me please?
I'm asking about this post link--->http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57042-connecting-dots-2.html#post903399

It says...

Are you suggesting that Jews of the Christian era are not elect , i.e. saved, unless they become freinds of the gospel? That's not what that verse says in Greek or in English. Look art the tense of the verb, "they are (present tense) enemies of the Gospel, but elect.The the next verse clinches it . . .

Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance," in Greek, ametamelatos, which means irrevocable.

So if the Jews were ever called of God, they still are, even if they do not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. How so? Well look ar Romans 11:8 . . .

"According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear" (the Gospel). And Romans 4:15 is the mechanism by which they can still be saved . . .

"for where no law is, there is no transgression."

So if God sends His chosen people to hell after He sovereignly blinded them to the Gospel, then God is unjust!

Are you saying that if a Jew rejects Jesus, they are still granted eternal life with the Father and Son and Holy Spirit?

 

[Ariel82]

that's okay, I understand the question. The new wineskins are of course the Gentile believers, the old wineskins are of course the Jewish people. From here on, I trust the Scripture for the answer:

"No man putteth a piece of undressed cloth upon an old garment; for that which should fill it up taketh from the garment, and a worse rent is made. Neither do men put new wine into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins, and both are preserved."

It is possible that Jesus is only speaking of the Gentile church in the phrase "both are preserved," but since Jesus in the whole passage is talking about both the Jewish people and the Gentile church, IMHO, it is probable that the phrase "both are preserved" is about both peoples Jesus was talking about.

Thanks 4 ur answer i must disagree...the new wineskin is to be born again not justbgentiles but jews who accepted Jesus as well

 

[Therapon]

Therapon. Can you clarify for me please?
I'm asking about this post link--->http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57042-connecting-dots-2.html#post903399

Are you saying that if a Jew rejects Jesus, they are still granted eternal life with the Father and Son and Holy Spirit?

If a Jew, quickened by the Holy Spirit that Yeshua is his Messiah, rejects that basic truth, then he is just as lost as any Gentile who does so, in fact, that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[mark54]

[h=3]Jesus Questioned About Fasting[/h][SUP]33 [/SUP]They said to him, “John’s disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking.”
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Can you make the friends of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? [SUP]35 [/SUP]But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; in those days they will fast.”
[SUP]36 [/SUP]He told them this parable: “No one tears a piece out of a new garment to patch an old one. Otherwise, they will have torn the new garment, and the patch from the new will not match the old. [SUP]37 [/SUP]And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the skins; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. [SUP]38 [/SUP]No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. [SUP]39 [/SUP]And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for they say, ‘The old is better
Luke5:33-39

I have always taken the above to mean that most wanted to cling to the old covenant rather than the Gospel Christ came to bring(new covenant)

 

[Therapon]

Thanks 4 ur answer i must disagree...the new wineskin is to be born again not justbgentiles but jews who accepted Jesus as well

I figured you would disagree, and that's OK <smile> but it can now be proven that the Jewish people of the Christian era are one of the Two Witness of Rev 11, so we have to ask, would one of the Two Witnesses to God be lost?.

 

[Ariel82]

Disagree that they r one of two witnesses

 

[1still_waters]

If a Jew, quickened by the Holy Spirit that Yeshua is his Messiah, rejects that basic truth, then he is just as lost as any Gentile who does so, in fact, that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Just to clarify. I don't want any wiggle room here.
Cuz you could say that technically they are lost, but are still going to eternity with God despite it.

So let's even eliminate the potential wiggle room

If a Jew rejects Jesus, will they spend eternity without God?

 

[Ariel82]

If a Jew, quick by the Holy Spirit that Yeshua is his Messiah, rejects that basic truth, then he is just as lost as any Gentile who does so, in fact, that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

So are all jews who have not accepted jesus as messiah lost or do u believe some jews who do not accept jesus but have oldwine saved?

 

[zone]

Just to clarify. I don't want any wiggle room here.
Cuz you could say that technically they are lost, but are still going to eternity with God despite it.

So let's even eliminate the potential wiggle room

If a Jew rejects Jesus, will they spend eternity without God?

you have to ask if they reject THE SPECIFIC PERSON IN SCRIPTURE JESUS OF NAZARETH are they still saved! - he wiggles out by saying they still believe in A messiah....some kind of messiah.

but just because they reject Jesus of Nazareth, God doesn't mind.

 

[zone]

I figured you would disagree, and that's OK <smile> but it can now be proven that the Jewish people of the Christian era are one of the Two Witness of Rev 11, so we have to ask, would one of the Two Witnesses to God be lost?.

prove it to 1Still.

just because YOU insert your interpretation into the body of biblical text proves NOTHING.
unbelieving JEWS are NOT One of the Two Witnesses.

 

[zone]

So are all jews who have not accepted jesus as messiah lost or do u believe some jews who do not accept jesus but have oldwine saved?

yes, he's said it, and i have posted it in the last dozen posts - in his own words.

 

[zone]

If a Jew, quickened by the Holy Spirit that Yeshua is his Messiah, rejects that basic truth, then he is just as lost as any Gentile who does so, in fact, that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

what about Old Testamenty Old Wineskin Jews of today who DO NOT ACCEPT Jesus of Nazareth - they are STILL SAVED...because they are preserved in blindness; and/or they believe in some sort of future redeemer.

YES OR NO

 

[1still_waters]

If a Jew, quickened by the Holy Spirit that Yeshua is his Messiah, rejects that basic truth, then he is just as lost as any Gentile who does so, in fact, that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Please answer each.

1.Can a Jew be quickened by the Spirit even if they reject Jesus as Messiah?

2.Are unbelieving Jews saved?

3. Are Jews who are quickened by the spirit, but who still rejects Jesus, saved?

 

[cfultz3]

Zone you are not in charge, why all the orders?

 

[zone]

that's okay, I understand the question. The new wineskins are of course the Gentile believers, the old wineskins are of course the Jewish people. From here on, I trust the Scripture for the answer:

"No man putteth a piece of undressed cloth upon an old garment; for that which should fill it up taketh from the garment, and a worse rent is made. Neither do men put new wine into old wine-skins: else the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins perish: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins, and both are preserved."

It is possible that Jesus is only speaking of the Gentile church in the phrase "both are preserved," but since Jesus in the whole passage is talking about both the Jewish people and the Gentile church, IMHO, it is probable that the phrase "both are preserved" is about both peoples Jesus was talking about.

??? huh?
you based EVERYTHING on this.
and you have thousands, maybe more you teach this to.

what GENTILE CHURCH?

there's ONE church - believing jew and believing gentile.
the unbelievers are CUT OFF....not preserved.

you have done this kind of fancy-footwork with EVERYTHING you have touched in the Holy Scriptures.

changed it ALL.

and you have reams of writing and videos and seminars RANTING against all who have ever taught and believed otherwise.
railing against the church for KNOWING the Pharisees were cut off.
you have called us all every name in the book for holding to what The Bible says!

you said YOU got new revelation that God was giving NEW DOCTRINAL UPDATES....that He was revealing NEW DOCTRINE and NEW SOTERIOLGY for the jews.

 

[doulos]

Joh 3:3 - 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Let’s start with the basic premise that the words of Christ from the gospel of John are true and that regardless of whether one is New or Old Testament saint they must be born again if they are to enter the kingdom of God. If this were not the case then why would Christ have expected Nicodemus to understand the concept of being born again before the crucifixion and resurrection? The belief that Old Testament saints must know Christ just as you and I do is further confirmed by;

1Co 10:1- 4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Scripture makes it clear that from Adam until the Lord returns the only way one can enter the kingdom of God is to come to know Christ and be born again. As 1Co10:1-4 shows even Old Testament saints like Abraham and Moses drink from the same Rock you and I drink from and that Rock is Christ. Abraham and Moses did not know His name was Jesus they only knew Him as the Messiah. The only difference between an Old Testament saint and a New Testament is not how they are born again but by the method God used to reveal Himself to the two different groups. He revealed Himself to the Old Testament saint through the Old Testament, He reveals Himself to the New Testament saints through the New Testament, end result both are born again by the same method coming to know Christ through the Scriptures.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

So who are the enemies of the gospel that are elect? And how can they be elect if they are enemies of the Gospel?

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Is it possible that enemies of the gospel that are elect are born again Jews that have been given the spirit of slumber until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in? Sure it’s possible and here is how.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression

Romans4:15 makes it clear that where there is no law there is no transgression. So the Jews who have been given the spirit of slumber are not in transgression for not observing what God has sovereignly blinded them to. So with that being the case how can they be born again? They are born again by coming to know Christ the same way Abraham and Moses were. They come to know Christ and are born again through the same Scriptures the Old Testament saints did, the Old Testament. Just like Abraham and Moses they don’t know Jesus’ name, they only know He is the Messiah and that He is coming.

So why would God do this? God made an everlasting covenant with the Jews and He must keep it or He would be a liar. We all know God is not a liar! For God to be true to His word that the covenant is everlasting God would have to keep a remnant under that covenant..

Does this mean that all Jews can ignore the New Testament? Of course not, remember it was blindness in part, not all of Israel. This can only apply to those that have been given a spirit of slumber until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. All others are allowed to see the First Advent of Christ and the Gospel so all others must come to know Christ and be born again as a result.