The Fullness of the Gentiles

[zone]

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Making the first old is not merging it with the new. While it is true it waxeth away and is ready to vanish it hasn’’t yet or it would not be an eternal covenat.

Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Brother the fulness of the Gentiles has to occur before the Lord's return. Why because there is time no more at the last trump, it is finished the mystery of God is over. (Rev10:6-7)

So all the prophesies after this time mean nothing??

when do the Jews recognize the one they pierced is Christ?

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Doesn’t this occur at the last trump? Once again doesn’t that mean time is no longer and the mystery of God is finished?

By this time it is too late. Thus as I said, it would be impossible for all jews to be saved..after this time. Thus paul would be in error

The time of the gentiles is the time when gentiles controls Jerusalem the fullness of the genntiles pertains to the full number of gentiles entering the church. The subject of this thread is about the fullness entering the church not the time when the gentiles control Jerusalem. Let’s not muddy the aters by confusing the two separate issues.

The topic is what it means.

if you do not wish to discuss it,, then why respond??

 

[Elizabeth619]

The gospel is stii being spread today. Like I sadi if it meant the full blessings were poured out on the church then it would have been fulfilled when Christ rebuilt the temple in three days or at Pentecost at the latest, not sometime around 70AD as some insist. So why was Paul writing about it 20+ years as something that was still future?

The bible says the gospel has been preached to all nations.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You do realize the concept of TWO covenants, right? how one is conditional: the first and the second is ETERNAL: salvation by faith in JESUS.............................................. because that is not what plemora is referring to but the fulfillment of prophecy that is enabled by the Jews blindness which is done after the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. it not referring to blessings upon the church... don't know where you got that idea.............[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR] are you serious? you don't see how one is eternal and the other is NOT?



yes Abraham's covenant is different than the one God made with Israel through MOSES and his laws............ even during Moses' time God told them that. ..... the OT prophets knew and prophecies about Jesus. however many were BLIND to it.

Mosaic yes. Abrahamic no..

Big difference.

 

[zone]

When do the Jews recognize the one they pierced is Christ?
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

fulfilled:

John 19
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away. 32So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him. 33But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he is telling the truth—that you also may believe. 36For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” 37And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

 

[doulos]

You do realize the concept of TWO covenants, right? how one is conditional: the first and the second is ETERNAL: salvation by faith in JESUS

As I said before it has always been about faith. As for as the old covenant being a conditional covenant well let’s have a look.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Lev 26:44 - 45 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
Jer 33:24-26 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
Eze 16:60 - 63 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
So it wasn’t an everlasting covenant? Since when?

.............................................. because that is not what plemora is referring to but the fulfillment of prophecy that is enabled by the Jews blindness which is done after the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

Where does it say the blindness is lifted when the temple is destroyed? What difference would destroying a temple Christ Himself decalred desolate 40 years before it’s destruction have to do with the fullness of the Gentiles coming in? If Plemora refers to the filling of the church it isn’t full yet is it? Aren’t there people coming to the Lord daily?

The only prophecy that was fulfilled in 70AD was the destruction of a temple that Christ Himself declared desolate roughly 40 years before it’s destruction.

it not referring to blessings upon the church... don't know where you got that idea.............

I know, which is something I pointed out in the original post. Many who believe the fullness of the gentiles was fullfilled in 70AD say it took that long for the blessings to be pored out and the fatness of the church to happen. That view fails on both counts the church was filled with the blessings by Pentecost at the latest, and the church is still getting fatter (people are still coming to Christ) to this day so clearly it fails on both accounts

[/SIZE]

[/FONT][/COLOR] are you serious? you don't see how one is eternal and the other is NOT?

Read the list of verses above and then tell me if you seriously believe it was not an everlasting covenant.

yes Abraham's covenant is different than the one God made with Israel through MOSES and his laws............ even during Moses' time God told them that. ..... the OT prophets knew and prophecies about Jesus. however many were BLIND to it.

Yes they were blinded for our sakes, not for their condemnation.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[doulos]

Galatians 3

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]i[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP] who is Christ. ............................................................................ covenant made to ONE seed not all the SEEDS of descendents of Abraham.....

You conveniently left out the next verse. Let’s have a look;
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

 

[doulos]

So all the prophesies after this time mean nothing??

By this time it is too late. Thus as I said, it would be impossible for all jews to be saved..after this time. Thus paul would be in error

The topic is what it means.

if you do not wish to discuss it,, then why respond??

I have no problem discussing what the fullness of the gentiles is but you are confusing the timing of events because of your mistaken belief that millenial kingdom is an earthly kingdom and as a result place some prophecies after the last trump which directly contradicts what we are told in Rev10:6-7. Start a thread on the millenium if you feel led, and I will join in as time allows.

Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[doulos]

The bible says the gospel has been preached to all nations.

How does that prove the fullness of the gentiles has come in?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have no problem discussing what the fullness of the gentiles is but you are confusing the timing of events because of your mistaken belief that millenial kingdom is an earthly kingdom and as a result place some prophecies after the last trump which directly contradicts what we are told in Rev10:6-7. Start a thread on the millenium if you feel led, and I will join in as time allows.

Well you are mistaken. and you still have major issues, All Isreal would not have the chance to be saved if the time ends, its too late.

Also. it is not just revelation, it is much OT prophesy also. which has not been fulfilled, yet.

Rev 10:6-7

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I guess rev 19 and 21 mean nothing. when was the beast cast out, and satan bound?? Still have not seen this. no one has gone to hell yet.

 

[Ariel82]

You conveniently left out the next verse. Let’s have a look;
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

no I was trying to focus you on the fact that the ETERNAL covenant was made to Abraham and JESUS CHRIST (Abraham SEED) not his SEEDS..........you are trying to mix the two DIFFERENT covenants and the verses referring to the ETERNAL one with the TEMPORAL one that was given to Moses due to the rebellion on Herob..........do you know the difference between the BONDSWOMAN and her children and the FREE woman and her children?>>>>>>>>>>Do you know the difference between the TWO different covenants? .............from your posts it doesn't seem like you do.......however, maybe you do... there is always that hope, that its just a misunderstanding......

 

[Ariel82]

<facepalm> I don't know why I even try.....I think I need to go read my Bible and pray...................................................................

As I said before it has always been about faith. As for as the old covenant being a conditional covenant well let’s have a look.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

SEED = JESUS not all of Abraham's descendents. the promise is to and about JESUS. ...........................................................................................................................................................................

Lev 26:44 - 45 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

REMNANT saved. not UTTERLY destroyed.... APOSTLES were of ISRAEL.. .they are part of the REMNANT.......... GOD kept this promise by bring in some JEWS to faith in JESUS..........therefore this was FULFILLED.............................

Jer 33:24-26 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

JESUS was the SEED of David.... therefore, FULFILLED in JESUS....................................................................................................................................................................................

Eze 16:60 - 63 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

this is done by JESUS sacrifice and did you read "not by thy covenant"? GOD established His NEW Covenant through JESUS blood........why you don't see this I don't know...........................

So it wasn’t an everlasting covenant? Since when?

.......God give me patience...............

Where does it say the blindness is lifted when the temple is destroyed? What difference would destroying a temple Christ Himself decalred desolate 40 years before it’s destruction have to do with the fullness of the Gentiles coming in? If Plemora refers to the filling of the church it isn’t full yet is it? Aren’t there people coming to the Lord daily?

it doesn't have to do with filling the church. that is something YOU have INSERTED into the Bible. it is about the FULFILLMENT of PROPHECY concerning the BLINDNESS of the JEWS who CRUXIFIED Jesus. they would NOT have done that if they were not blind and the temple would not have been destroyed if they repented, but God kept them blind so that scripture might be FULFILLED. ...........................................................the rest are just repetition of the same errors addressed above........

 

[Abiding]

oh my, no way am i gona respond to all that
think ill just put on some tunes and sip my kefir
probiotic blueberry smoothie.

 

[GRA]

CLUE:

( "Y'all quit wasting your energy on bickering and focus on the connection between the following:" )

'fulness of the Gentiles'
'times of the Gentiles'

 

[Abiding]

there isnt one
Yes i was using my bicker voice!

 

[Abiding]

But if you can prove to me there is ill buy it.
That was my very polite voice

 

[Ariel82]

connection???? they both talk about DESTRUCTION of the cites by another Gentile nation... in the case of Ezekiel 30, it was ....Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon against Eygpt

....................................“Wail, ‘Woe to the day!’
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For the day is near,
Even the day of the Lord is near;
It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The sword shall come upon Egypt,
And great anguish shall be in Ethiopia,
When the slain fall in Egypt,
And they take away her wealth,
And her foundations are broken down....................................“I will also make a multitude of Egypt to cease
By the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]He and his people with him, the most terrible of the nations,
Shall be brought to destroy the land;
They shall draw their swords against Egypt,
And fill the land with the slain.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I will make the rivers dry,
And sell the land into the hand of the wicked;
I will make the land waste, and all that is in it,
By the hand of aliens.

I, the Lord, have spoken.”

compared to..............Luke 21 which talks about Jerusalem destroyed by the Roman armies.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[doulos]

no I was trying to focus you on the fact that the ETERNAL covenant was made to Abraham and JESUS CHRIST (Abraham SEED) not his SEEDS..........you are trying to mix the two DIFFERENT covenants and the verses referring to the ETERNAL one with the TEMPORAL one that was given to Moses due to the rebellion on Herob..........do you know the difference between the BONDSWOMAN and her children and the FREE woman and her children?>>>>>>>>>>Do you know the difference between the TWO different covenants? .............from your posts it doesn't seem like you do.......however, maybe you do... there is always that hope, that its just a misunderstanding......

The covenant with the bondswoman has no bearing on when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.. As Gal3:17 showed it did not annul the first covenant. The point that these verses is making is that it was never about adherence to the law but faith in Christ. That faith is what saved Abraham not his observance of the law. Nor does the New Covenant make the Old Covenant null and void. The term seed is used in singular fashion to show that not all of Abrahams descendants were under this covenant but only through Isaac.

So let’s have a look at what some noted theologians from the past have to say on the subject;

“The original word diathēkē signifies both a covenant and a testament. Now the promise made to Abraham was rather a testament than a covenant. When a testament has become of force by the death of the testator, it is not capable of being altered; and therefore, the promise that was given to Abraham being of the nature of a testament, it remains firm and unalterable. But, if it should be said that a grant or testament may be defeated for want of persons to claim the benefit of it (Gal_3:16), he shows that there is no danger of that in this case” Matthew Henry

“But before reaching this point, he must call attention to the fact that the promises were given, not to Abraham only, but to his descendants. Hence it follows that the covenant was not a mere temporary contract, made to last only up to the time of the law. Even a man's covenant remains uncancelled and without additions. Similarly, God's covenant-promises to Abraham remain valid; and this is made certain by the fact that the promises were given not only to Abraham but to his seed;” Vincent’s Word Studies”

“The argument is, that a law given after the solemn promise which had been made and confirmed, could not make that promise void. It would still be binding according to the original intention; and the Law must have been given for some purpose entirely different from that of the promise. No one can doubt the soundness of this argument. The promise to Abraham was of the nature of a compact. But no law given by one of the parties to a treaty or compact can disannul it, Two nations make a treaty of peace, involving solemn promises, pledges, and obligations. No law made afterward by one of the nations can disannul or change that treaty. Two men make a contract with solemn pledges and promises. No act of one of the parties can change that, or alter the conditions. So it was with the covenant between God and Abraham. God made to him solemn promists which could not be affected by a future giving of a law. God would feel himself to be under the most solemn obligation to fulfil all the promises which he had made to him.” Albert Barnes

“Four hundred and thirty years after - God made a covenant with Abraham that the Messiah should spring from his posterity. This covenant stated that justification should be obtained by faith in the Messiah. The Messiah did not come till 1911 years after the making of this covenant, and the law was given 430 years after the covenant with Abraham, therefore the law, which was given 1481 years before the promise to Abram could be fulfilled, (for so much time elapsed between the giving of the law and the advent of Christ), could not possibly annul the Abrahamic covenant.” Adam Clarke

“And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God (m) in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.” Geneva Bible Translation notes

“However, be these computations as they will, it is certain, that the law, which was so long after the confirming of the covenant to Abraham, could not make it null and void: or that it should make the promise of none effect; the particular promise of the covenant, respecting the justification of Abraham and his spiritual seed, by faith in the righteousness of Christ” John Gill

 

[doulos]

CLUE:

( "Y'all quit wasting your energy on bickering and focus on the connection between the following:" )

'fulness of the Gentiles'
'times of the Gentiles'

Times and fullness do not mean the same thing. The times of the gentiles refers to the time when Jerusalem is controlled by the gentiles, that ended in 1967. The fullness of the gentiles refers to the full number of the gentiles coming to the Lord. 2 separate issues please stick to the topic of the original post which is the fullness of the gentiles. Thanks!

 

[doulos]

<facepalm> I don't know why I even try.....I think I need to go read my Bible and pray................................................................... SEED = JESUS not all of Abraham's descendents. the promise is to and about JESUS. ........................................................................................................................................................................... REMNANT saved. not UTTERLY destroyed.... APOSTLES were of ISRAEL.. .they are part of the REMNANT.......... GOD kept this promise by bring in some JEWS to faith in JESUS..........therefore this was FULFILLED............................. JESUS was the SEED of David.... therefore, FULFILLED in JESUS.................................................................................................................................................................................... this is done by JESUS sacrifice and did you read "not by thy covenant"? GOD established His NEW Covenant through JESUS blood........why you don't see this I don't know..................................God give me patience............... it doesn't have to do with filling the church. that is something YOU have INSERTED into the Bible. it is about the FULFILLMENT of PROPHECY concerning the BLINDNESS of the JEWS who CRUXIFIED Jesus. they would NOT have done that if they were not blind and the temple would not have been destroyed if they repented, but God kept them blind so that scripture might be FULFILLED. ...........................................................the rest are just repetition of the same errors addressed above........[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

If what you are saying is true then the fullness came in with Christ. So why was Paul writing about the fullnesss of the gentiles as a future event some 20+ years after the crucifixion and resurrection?