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What makes you think that John 19 is the fulfillment of Zechariah 12, just because of verse 37? I do not see the inhabitants of Jerusalem mourning as one that mourneth for his only son or any great mourning in Jerusalem. That mourning has never taken place. You can't find it in the New Testament church or in any church history, it just does not exist. The chief priests and the people had delivered him up to the Gentiles to be crucified in Matthew 27 and Mark 15. There is no record that the inhabitants of Jerusalem being at the cross or when they laid him in the tomb had come under any great mourning. In Zechariah 12:9 who were the nations that were coming against Jerusalem that the Lord promised to come against and destroy to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem? When has that taken place?
You use Luke 23:27,28 and the mourning of the daughters of Jerusalem but Jesus had not made it to the cross yet nor had he been pierced and why have you left off verses 29 and 30 that point to a time and great day of God's wrath in Revelation 6:16,17? You use Zechariah 12:10 and reference it to Pentecost in Acts 2 and to John 19 when it specifically mentions nations coming against Jerusalem and how God will seek to destroy those nations and defend Jerusalem by pouring out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplication and this is the time and day when they shall see the one whom they have pierced and shall mourn with a great mourning in verse 10. 'In that day' is referenced (7) times in Zechariah 12. Acts 2 and John 19 are not the fulfillment of Zechariah 12 as I see it. What about Revelation 1:7, could this be related to the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10, which has a future reference that takes place when the Lord cometh with the clouds when all shall see him, even those which pierced him? Is not this perhaps the hope of what Paul is referring to in Romans 11 concerning Israel? There is so much more to Zechariah 12 then what you have made mention of.
You use Luke 23:27,28 and the mourning of the daughters of Jerusalem but Jesus had not made it to the cross yet nor had he been pierced and why have you left off verses 29 and 30 that point to a time and great day of God's wrath in Revelation 6:16,17? You use Zechariah 12:10 and reference it to Pentecost in Acts 2 and to John 19 when it specifically mentions nations coming against Jerusalem and how God will seek to destroy those nations and defend Jerusalem by pouring out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplication and this is the time and day when they shall see the one whom they have pierced and shall mourn with a great mourning in verse 10. 'In that day' is referenced (7) times in Zechariah 12. Acts 2 and John 19 are not the fulfillment of Zechariah 12 as I see it. What about Revelation 1:7, could this be related to the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10, which has a future reference that takes place when the Lord cometh with the clouds when all shall see him, even those which pierced him? Is not this perhaps the hope of what Paul is referring to in Romans 11 concerning Israel? There is so much more to Zechariah 12 then what you have made mention of.
A
grr everything i typed was just deleted.... oh well.............................
Acts 2 fulfills this scripture better: [SUP]36 [/SUP]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
happened when Jesus cast out demons, and eventually when the temple was destroyed.... the others just confuse folks...living waters flow from Jesus and His disciples... most won't argue about that.... ....going to highlight the relevant text...... ~
....gottA GO will read rest later.....
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
happened when Jesus cast out demons, and eventually when the temple was destroyed.... the others just confuse folks...living waters flow from Jesus and His disciples... most won't argue about that.... ....going to highlight the relevant text...... ~
....gottA GO will read rest later.....
E
so acts 2 shows this?
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
who was gathered together against jerusalem in acts 2?
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
when were the horses smitten and made blind? when did their riders go mad? and when did the govornors of Judah claim in their heart the god of isreal (jesus himself) is their strength in acts 2?
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people roundabout, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Where in acts 2 was jerusalem re-inhabited again? and all th eland around her? I did not know it was not inhabited before Peter made that great speach. more importantly. when did the governors of judah wipe out her enemies in acts 2?
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
When did God SAVE judah? in acts 2?
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
When did God defend the inhabitants of jeruslam and the house of David made as God in acts 2? they were destroyed not but a few years later!
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
and when did God destroy all the nations which came against jerusalem in acts 2?
I could go on, but I think you see the picture. None of the stuff has happened yet.. NONE
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
who was gathered together against jerusalem in acts 2?
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
when were the horses smitten and made blind? when did their riders go mad? and when did the govornors of Judah claim in their heart the god of isreal (jesus himself) is their strength in acts 2?
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people roundabout, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Where in acts 2 was jerusalem re-inhabited again? and all th eland around her? I did not know it was not inhabited before Peter made that great speach. more importantly. when did the governors of judah wipe out her enemies in acts 2?
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
When did God SAVE judah? in acts 2?
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
When did God defend the inhabitants of jeruslam and the house of David made as God in acts 2? they were destroyed not but a few years later!
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
and when did God destroy all the nations which came against jerusalem in acts 2?
I could go on, but I think you see the picture. None of the stuff has happened yet.. NONE
A
I could explain it to you EG, but I have to take my daughter to preschool right now....here's a hint: its talking about the HEAVENLY Jerusalem and how JESUS was the burdensome stone. and anyone who spread His gospel WERE cut down... that is just verse 3... but if you wanted to you would see the picture....
E
heavenly jerusalem?
ok.. thanks..
No. I can't see it not because I don't want to, but because it is not there.
God will not cause Their land to be repopulated (there will be no repopulation in heavenly jerusalem, it has never been populated before)
God will not use them to destroy anyone in heaven
God will not punish anyone in the new jerusalem, or cause their horses to go blind so they can be defeated
i can go on and on and on again!!!
You say if I wanted I could see it? I could say the same to you. If you would look and honestly think with an open mind, you would see it is IMPOSSIBLE for this to be heavenly jerusalem. the things DO NOT FIT
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Those who are born again of the HEAVENLY Jerusalem, who take part in the NEW covenant and not the earthly Jerusalem are persecuted and cut to pieces by those who are of the Earthly bondswoman.. you know the scriptures(downloading and printing pictures to take to school so i'll answer while I wait) ....
mmm horse... rider... smite with blindness.. wonder if the Jews of that time were BLINDED? hmm.....
you need to identify WHO the horses, riders, and governors are first before we discuss this further....
ever hear about God make His followers LIGHT among the people? OF God establishing a Heavenly kingdom?
again with the false assumptions....
tents = bodies, people were resurrected from their graves and walked among the people in Jerusalem shortly after Jesus rose from the dead. its in the Gospel. even before Jesus gave His the disciples the Holy Spirit in Acts 2.
as i just said it happened BEFORE acts 2
again those who have citizenship in the Heavenly Jerusalem not the Earthly one....
questions based on your false assumptions........ yes all nations who come against God are destroyed...it says God will SEEK to destroy, its still happening God is still destroying His enemies because they are still trying to come against the Heavenly Jerusalem and the spread of the Gospel........ever read the part about the WAR that broke out in Heaven...wait you still believe that's in the future don't you? still think Satan is in Heaven?
mmm horse... rider... smite with blindness.. wonder if the Jews of that time were BLINDED? hmm.....
you need to identify WHO the horses, riders, and governors are first before we discuss this further....
ever hear about God make His followers LIGHT among the people? OF God establishing a Heavenly kingdom?
again with the false assumptions....
tents = bodies, people were resurrected from their graves and walked among the people in Jerusalem shortly after Jesus rose from the dead. its in the Gospel. even before Jesus gave His the disciples the Holy Spirit in Acts 2.
as i just said it happened BEFORE acts 2
again those who have citizenship in the Heavenly Jerusalem not the Earthly one....
questions based on your false assumptions........ yes all nations who come against God are destroyed...it says God will SEEK to destroy, its still happening God is still destroying His enemies because they are still trying to come against the Heavenly Jerusalem and the spread of the Gospel........ever read the part about the WAR that broke out in Heaven...wait you still believe that's in the future don't you? still think Satan is in Heaven?
E
lol.. I love ya sis, but this is like saying 2 + 1 = 4. It does not fit.
The prophet said - The people will be gathered against jerusalem, and God will cut them to pieces. And you say it is the new covenant and new jerusalem which does this.. really?? No one is gathered against jerusalem in your theory..
The Christ is NOT Jerusalem, Was never PROMISED Jerusalem. and is not SYMBOLISED by jerusalem. it does not fit. You can't force a square block into a round hole. it will not fit.
And again. it does not fit. The people who are blinded are those who come AGAINST the jews.. And you want to make it fulfilled by saying it is the JEWS themselves? trying to force something in order to make a prophesy some how magically come true is not the way it was supposed to be done. God never intended us to do this, this is the way the world does it.
and who are the riders, and governors?
the passage makes it clear.
The governors: governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
The riders are those who come against Judah. As the passage says, God will protect the inhabitants of Judah,, who are they? see the governors.
what does this have to do with a land which was not inhabited being inhabited again? come on sis, if you want me to be serious, at least say things which go with the passage at hand.
False assumptions?
let read again.
on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
key words..
1. Inhabited AGAIN2
2. . Right hand and left hand of jerusalem (surounding land ie israel)
3. In her own place AGAIN
New jerusalem is a city which will not be surrounded by anything
New jerusalem can not be inhabited again, it has never been inhabited before
New jerusalem has not yet been astablished, so it can not be in her own place again.
it is not false assumptions, it is literally interpreting what God said, reviewing the evidence, and seeing it (your belief) does not fit the passage.
It does? where?
tents have many meanings
The dwelling place of armies, where they rest
The dwelling place of those who are outcast from their home, refugees.
God said he will save them, from Judah..
and you want me to think it meant a few people who ressurected from the dead?? Have you studied warfare before? The people the prophet spoke to would have understood exactly what he meant, They NEVER would have thought it would be a few people rising from the dead.
I can't be serious with thoughts like this.. they DO NOT FIT.
So God is going to defend us in heaven? who are the armies God has to defend us from? They have been cast in hell long before we even arrive to the new jerusalem. But if you think God needs to defend us from an army which does not exist.. ok.....
No. Questions based on the passage of scripture.
again..8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
lol.. Back and forth.
it happens in the future (new jerusalem) it happend in the past (a few people were ressurected, acts etc etc)
can you make up your mind?
this is not talking about a heavenly battle, this is talking about whathappens here on earth. God will destroys the nations. In dan 2 he did it as a rock. In dan 7 he did it, In rev he did it, In matt 24 he claims he will do it at his return.
not to mention the MANY OTHER prophesies which show him doing it (dry bones, jacobs trouble)
forgive me if I take God at his word. and do not try to symbolise it to make it appear to come true, because it did not literally happen when I thought it should.. This is a trick th eroman church had to do for years. Not buying into it.
The prophet said - The people will be gathered against jerusalem, and God will cut them to pieces. And you say it is the new covenant and new jerusalem which does this.. really?? No one is gathered against jerusalem in your theory..
The Christ is NOT Jerusalem, Was never PROMISED Jerusalem. and is not SYMBOLISED by jerusalem. it does not fit. You can't force a square block into a round hole. it will not fit.
And again. it does not fit. The people who are blinded are those who come AGAINST the jews.. And you want to make it fulfilled by saying it is the JEWS themselves? trying to force something in order to make a prophesy some how magically come true is not the way it was supposed to be done. God never intended us to do this, this is the way the world does it.
and who are the riders, and governors?
the passage makes it clear.
The governors: governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
The riders are those who come against Judah. As the passage says, God will protect the inhabitants of Judah,, who are they? see the governors.
what does this have to do with a land which was not inhabited being inhabited again? come on sis, if you want me to be serious, at least say things which go with the passage at hand.
False assumptions?
let read again.
on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
key words..
1. Inhabited AGAIN2
2. . Right hand and left hand of jerusalem (surounding land ie israel)
3. In her own place AGAIN
New jerusalem is a city which will not be surrounded by anything
New jerusalem can not be inhabited again, it has never been inhabited before
New jerusalem has not yet been astablished, so it can not be in her own place again.
it is not false assumptions, it is literally interpreting what God said, reviewing the evidence, and seeing it (your belief) does not fit the passage.
It does? where?
tents have many meanings
The dwelling place of armies, where they rest
The dwelling place of those who are outcast from their home, refugees.
God said he will save them, from Judah..
and you want me to think it meant a few people who ressurected from the dead?? Have you studied warfare before? The people the prophet spoke to would have understood exactly what he meant, They NEVER would have thought it would be a few people rising from the dead.
I can't be serious with thoughts like this.. they DO NOT FIT.
So God is going to defend us in heaven? who are the armies God has to defend us from? They have been cast in hell long before we even arrive to the new jerusalem. But if you think God needs to defend us from an army which does not exist.. ok.....
No. Questions based on the passage of scripture.
again..8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
lol.. Back and forth.
it happens in the future (new jerusalem) it happend in the past (a few people were ressurected, acts etc etc)
can you make up your mind?
this is not talking about a heavenly battle, this is talking about whathappens here on earth. God will destroys the nations. In dan 2 he did it as a rock. In dan 7 he did it, In rev he did it, In matt 24 he claims he will do it at his return.
not to mention the MANY OTHER prophesies which show him doing it (dry bones, jacobs trouble)
forgive me if I take God at his word. and do not try to symbolise it to make it appear to come true, because it did not literally happen when I thought it should.. This is a trick th eroman church had to do for years. Not buying into it.
E
Why is jerusalem mourning?
1. Their fathers crucified Christ
2. They and their fathers spent a few thousand years rejecting him, And turning people away from Christ because they were trying to do it their own way. They lived in sin against God, and worshiped their idols and not the God of their fathers
3. God was gracious to them, even though they did the above two things. God kept his promise to them anyway (like he will for us) (lev lev 26 and other OT passages which show this)
why else would they be mourning? They finally REPENTED. And God proves he keeps his promises
they did not mourn in Christs time, THEY REJOICED AND HAD A PARTY! THEY KILLED WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS THE FALSE MESSIAH. and they have been doing it ever since
do me a favor and first point and answer your illogical statements. as I just showed.
1. Their fathers crucified Christ
2. They and their fathers spent a few thousand years rejecting him, And turning people away from Christ because they were trying to do it their own way. They lived in sin against God, and worshiped their idols and not the God of their fathers
3. God was gracious to them, even though they did the above two things. God kept his promise to them anyway (like he will for us) (lev lev 26 and other OT passages which show this)
why else would they be mourning? They finally REPENTED. And God proves he keeps his promises
they did not mourn in Christs time, THEY REJOICED AND HAD A PARTY! THEY KILLED WHAT THEY THOUGHT WAS THE FALSE MESSIAH. and they have been doing it ever since
do me a favor and first point and answer your illogical statements. as I just showed.
A
no you misunderstand what I have stated. I say that people gather against those who belong to the Heavenly Jerusalem by means of the New covenant......everyone gathers against Jerusalem because they will not repent and turn from their sins......
again you misrepresent what I have said. the stones of the Heavenly Jerusalem are made up of LIVING stones: people who have been born again....sorry if you do not recognize that fact......
it is those jews who have been blinded and who go against God's people, much like Saul did before meeting Jesus....no forcing, it there and pretty clear if you for once let go of your preconceived beliefs and read the text itself.....
the governors are the Apostles of Christ and His other disciples because Jesus entrusted them with His divine government to carry out His orders to spread the gospel, since Jesus is a descendent of Judah, He can be referred to in that manner.......... the riders and their horses, refer to the demonic powers who rode the Pharisees and other people in power, who were blinded to the truth......
Eden... it promises that we will inhabit it again.............
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new jerusalem is the reestablishment of Eden than it makes since because WHERE was the garden of Eden located?
yeah I can say the same for your beliefs, but that is because I see the assumptions you make about the passage....
of course they wouldn't understand. they didn't have JESUS and had a VEIL over their reading of scriptures............where does it say TENT refers to BODIES or where are people given NEW Bodies after Jesus rose and spoke to people in Jerusalem? .....well I will give you both scriptures........ if that one is unclear to you here is another use of the word TENT to refer to our human bodies at present time: 2 peter 1 Jesus told Peter how he would die and refers to his body as his TENT.
now for when people ROSE from their grave.......you know the whole DRY BONES living again part.......Matthew 27
............... um.....i'm just going to pray for you about this one... only God can show you the truth about the New Jerusalem.......
the new Jerusalem exist since Jesus went up to Heaven and established it. its not the future, its your misunderstanding of my beliefs that makes you think I'm going back and forth. ........................ not talking about a heavenly battle, but a SPIRITUAL one that happens on Earth and in Heaven........
yes there are and He has done it, but some people just don't see it......
trick? perhaps there is a reason the writers of scriptures call it a mystery, I thought it was pretty obvious but I guess not.
again you misrepresent what I have said. the stones of the Heavenly Jerusalem are made up of LIVING stones: people who have been born again....sorry if you do not recognize that fact......
it is those jews who have been blinded and who go against God's people, much like Saul did before meeting Jesus....no forcing, it there and pretty clear if you for once let go of your preconceived beliefs and read the text itself.....
the governors are the Apostles of Christ and His other disciples because Jesus entrusted them with His divine government to carry out His orders to spread the gospel, since Jesus is a descendent of Judah, He can be referred to in that manner.......... the riders and their horses, refer to the demonic powers who rode the Pharisees and other people in power, who were blinded to the truth......
Eden... it promises that we will inhabit it again.............
[/FONT]
new jerusalem is the reestablishment of Eden than it makes since because WHERE was the garden of Eden located?
yeah I can say the same for your beliefs, but that is because I see the assumptions you make about the passage....
of course they wouldn't understand. they didn't have JESUS and had a VEIL over their reading of scriptures............where does it say TENT refers to BODIES or where are people given NEW Bodies after Jesus rose and spoke to people in Jerusalem? .....well I will give you both scriptures........ if that one is unclear to you here is another use of the word TENT to refer to our human bodies at present time: 2 peter 1 Jesus told Peter how he would die and refers to his body as his TENT.
now for when people ROSE from their grave.......you know the whole DRY BONES living again part.......Matthew 27
............... um.....i'm just going to pray for you about this one... only God can show you the truth about the New Jerusalem.......
the new Jerusalem exist since Jesus went up to Heaven and established it. its not the future, its your misunderstanding of my beliefs that makes you think I'm going back and forth. ........................ not talking about a heavenly battle, but a SPIRITUAL one that happens on Earth and in Heaven........
yes there are and He has done it, but some people just don't see it......
trick? perhaps there is a reason the writers of scriptures call it a mystery, I thought it was pretty obvious but I guess not.
A
where do you get this statement from? "God said he will save them, from Judah.." ...............................................................................especially in reference to this verse "The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. "
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A
Anyway i still love you EG even though I don't agree with you. How about we come to an agreement? I will pray that God will open your eyes and you pray that God open mine and we will come back when one or the other of us. sees something differently from those verses than what we see now? Gotta get some things done. leaving town this weekend to visit the in laws. ttyl 
uh...members from all 12 tribes returned to rebuild the wall and the temple.
then Jesus came.
He was crucified.
the Gospels say the scripture from Zechariah was fulfilled: they will look upon him whom they pierced - they did; and it shows women mourning and weeping.
okay...First Advent.
i wonder why Christians dont know Jesus came already.
then Jesus came.
He was crucified.
the Gospels say the scripture from Zechariah was fulfilled: they will look upon him whom they pierced - they did; and it shows women mourning and weeping.
okay...First Advent.
i wonder why Christians dont know Jesus came already.
where does it say every person in Jerusalem would mourn.
it doesnt.
Zechariah 12
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
what you are unable to grasp is that two things are being said about the coming PROMISE -
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications
Acts 2 Pentecost - and all other mentions of Jesus bringing and being GRACE AND TRUTH
and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn
they did. they who pierced him were right there when it happened. remember.
and only some wept and mourned. the others mocked and laughed.
and hurried off to get ready for Passover cuz they were so holy.
but i know you guys just have a real real hard time just reading what it says.
you dont know there were no verse breaks or any of that. it was one long narrative.
if it read this way, you might say...oh...okay....i might accept that (because in your mind the chronological order would make sense to you. - Crucifixion first - then Pentecost:
and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:
just showed it to ya. but you refuse it.
sorry.
hahahaha....oh. the Bible actually says the Romans soldiers, the Pharisees and Pilate and every person in the region would be crying......
meh
it doesnt.
Zechariah 12
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
what you are unable to grasp is that two things are being said about the coming PROMISE -
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications
Acts 2 Pentecost - and all other mentions of Jesus bringing and being GRACE AND TRUTH
and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn
they did. they who pierced him were right there when it happened. remember.
and only some wept and mourned. the others mocked and laughed.
and hurried off to get ready for Passover cuz they were so holy.
but i know you guys just have a real real hard time just reading what it says.
you dont know there were no verse breaks or any of that. it was one long narrative.
if it read this way, you might say...oh...okay....i might accept that (because in your mind the chronological order would make sense to you. - Crucifixion first - then Pentecost:
and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:
just showed it to ya. but you refuse it.
sorry.
hahahaha....oh. the Bible actually says the Romans soldiers, the Pharisees and Pilate and every person in the region would be crying......
meh
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no...i posted first Peter's vision of the unclean animals...the gentiles...and Cornelius.
then Acts 10...when the Spirit was poured out on the gentiles for all (including the jews) to see.
it mighta been in another thread Ariel...sorry
anyways....here it is in full
z
Acts 10
Peter’s Vision
9The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hourb to pray. 10And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
17Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon’s house, stood at the gate 18and called out to ask whether Simon who was called Peter was lodging there. 19And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” 21And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?” 22And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say.” 23So he invited them in to be his guests.
The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 24And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 27And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”
30And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour,c and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing 31and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’ 33So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”
Gentiles Hear the Good News
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
then Acts 10...when the Spirit was poured out on the gentiles for all (including the jews) to see.
it mighta been in another thread Ariel...sorry
anyways....here it is in full
z
Acts 10
Peter’s Vision
9The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hourb to pray. 10And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
17Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon’s house, stood at the gate 18and called out to ask whether Simon who was called Peter was lodging there. 19And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.” 21And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?” 22And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say.” 23So he invited them in to be his guests.
The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 24And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 27And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”
30And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour,c and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing 31and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’ 33So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”
Gentiles Hear the Good News
34So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
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No I understand completely. I am just stating it does not fit the text! I am not at war with them, neither is heavenly jerusalem. it is not even around yet. They are at war between satan and God trying to get their souls.. Not me..
I do not see a salvic nature of the prophesy,, I see a literal thing happening on earth. that is where we differ.
And again, it says ON THAT DAY. what day? not 2000 years of days. THAT ONE DAY.. it does not fit. I can not find it in my soul to try to make it fit.. when there is nothing that says otherwise.
lol.. The stones represent the temple. Not the city, not the surrounding area. it STILL does NOT FIT!
No, According to all prophesy, it is the gentiles who go against the jews (actually Israel). Prophesy must be taken as a whole, not in part. Judah is a nation. Which is not even part of ALL Israel. The governments of judah did not do this. and until the 3rd century, there were no governors of any church.. again, does not fit.
Sister. can we get off these kind of arguments? they do not help your case, and do nothing to help in the discussion. The same can be said about both ways, IF YOU would let go of your preconceived notions, YOU could see it.
I have no preconceived notions. i want to find the truth, if I am wrong, I want to know about it. That why I left scofieldism in the first place. Because I set aside my preconceived notions and opened my eyes.
and yes you are forcing it, whether you can see it or not does not change things.
lol. ok. makes a greak mystery story and fiction read. But does not fit. Try putting yourselves in the shoes of those who read the origional prophesy when it was given, and the one who made the prophesy. There is NO WAY they would have held to any interpretation like this.
hermeneutics includes putting yourselves in the shoes of those who wrote, and the origional audience.. to see how THEY WOULD have interpreted it.
eden is NOT jerusalem. never was, never will be.
lol.. So just because of this one verse written well over 1000 years after the origional prophesy, we should use it to represent what was written back then?? lol, nice try. Hermenuetics does not work this way, this is what people do when they true to force their belief on a passage, You know like the catholics try to force literal flesh and blood in the eucharist?? it does not work.
Um yeah I do..
the dry bones represent the two kingdoms of the nation of Isreal. They were dead (as they have been for well over 2000 years now) and they were given life.
they were united as one nation again.
they repented, and confessed their sins
they lived in their land, in peace (one king) not under slavery to a gentile king.
They obeyed Gods commands. They did not worship their idols anymore.
nothing fits about these people who rose from the dead. They did not live in peace, still lived under gentile king..
I know the truth about the new jerusalem.
it will be given to us. It will not have a sun, as Christ will be the son, will have no darkness. No evil. its enemies will be destroyed before it is created, It will have a heavenly temple. with 24 markers representing the apostles and prophets.
Nothing in this prophesy has a thing to do about new jerusalem. New jerusalem will not be attacked. it will not be in a place that was ever inhabited before. nothing fits..
Maybe you need to learn about it?
One can not see what is not there..
Nice try, but I can't fit this symbolic belief into a literal prophesy. if you feel ok with it. thats fine.. But I can not do it..
as I have said over and over, People symbolise prophesy only when it does not fit their belief. That is why we have so many belief systems today. If we would all just take it literally. we would ALL believe the same..
the mystery was that Christ would come twice.. First as suffering servant, second as king.
there is no mystery in your interpretation.. just symbolism which makes God say things which will not happen,