Meshullam, what do you think of the belief of some that all people will be saved (universal salvation)?
i asked this once, sorry i didn't see your answer.
zone
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Meshullam, what do you think of the belief of some that all people will be saved (universal salvation)?
i asked this once, sorry i didn't see your answer.
zone
I apologize, I never noticed it.
Your concepts of saved, and mine, with all due respect and i don't mean this in any ignorant way, but they are probably very different, but I'll explain anyway, as long as I don't get attacked for it after.
I believe Jesus teaches us a way to peace, to compassion of God, to live without fear, for this mortal life. Many times the word 'salvation' is thrown around but really, to me, there are two kinds, maybe more.
One is being saved, or 'freed' from sinful desire and sinful cause-and-effect (malice, spite, anger, selfishness, 'I want, I want' etc) in this life, the mortal life, insofar as a person can be 'saved' from these things (not fully); by our own adherance to what Jesus teaches. To be 'freed' in a sense, from wrong-thought and ill-desire, be it; wishing bad upon someone, be it anger, be it jealousy, be it mockery, whatever such thing. These are obstructions made of human nature, that stop us seeing the truth of things, from finding the true nature of God.
And the other type of salvation, for me, is the salvation, or 'freeing' from having to pay the sacrificial penalty for sin which is death, which as John says, Jesus paid once-for-all. God says that he has accursed all man in disobedience to have mercy on all. So that none can boast above another etc come the day.
My view on 'hell' is not contemporary either. I once met an old Jewish gentleman, who taught me to see 'heaven', 'hell', and 'new-earth' like this;
When a man dies, he goes to the 'grave' or to 'death' (shoel, hades). This is the 'resting place' of the dead. The 'grave' as I say. And all men go to this 'grave' (except perhaps Enoch and such, who was 'raised up to God', but this is the exception, not the rule).
When a man goes to 'hades', he is dead, obviously.
Paul says that all rise immortal to be judged, and even contemporary views of hell must admit that for someone to 'suffer for eternity' in feiry flame, that person must be immortal to be able to do so for eternity. So it stands that all men rise immortal to be judged.
God says 'each must be rendered according to its deeds'. So the next step is to 'reveal the hidden purposes of the heart', or as Paul says, 'I will be known just as I am fully known'.
So the 'sheep' go on, in an enlightened state (state of 'elevation', which is the original hebrew meaning for our word 'heaven'), to 'Gan Eden', or 'the renewed Earth'. (Gan Eden means 'New Eden).
and the 'goats' go to 'gehinnom' (which is the word we translate as 'hell').
Each person goes to either of these places as an immortal being.
Now speculation is rife about what 'gehinnom' is. But the Jewish man taught me that Jews, even back in Jesus time, believed that the 'fire' of Gehinnom, is God's purge of sorts. The fire itself, is God's truth, God's 'essence' if you'll pardon that, which is very much eternal. But he also taught me that the 'chastisement' or 'anguish' or 'bringing low' (translated 'destroyed', 'punished' etc in the KJV) of the people who go here is not eternal, however the outcome of their bringing low is eternal.
In otherwords, they undertake changes in perspective, in their 'centre', their mind, their whole 'being', which have eternal outcome. Like being shown all truths and then never actually 'desiring' anything other than God's way from then on in.
This in part is why, the Jewish man said, that Jesus said 'I will destroy the temple and renew it in three days'. The temple is known to be the mind, the abode of our worship, and 'centre' of our beliefs.
He also pointed out this is why he 'preached in the abode of death (hades)' for three days. People got a second chance, so to speak.
So it is a broad question that you ask, and there is speculation everywhere, and different beliefs, but much of the things I believe I have questioned and usually I have found them to be sound. Words play a big part, particularly;
Hell - gehinnom
Heaven - Elevations/enlightened
Gan Eden - Renewed Earth
Belief in - be convicted of
Soul - centre, perspective
temple - mind, body
I'm sure there are others, but it is the only formulation I have which does not contradict itself and does make much sense, considering all the forgiving actions of Jesus, the fact that he is to be the judge of all men.
again, I don't profess to be right about it, but it's what I believe.
But I challenge people to make their own mind up, I wouldn't 'teach' this to anyone, per se, but I have suggested it to people looking for alternative explanations when they come across discrepancies.
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Again;
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'Moreover, sanctify Jesus in the hearts of you and always ready a reason to give to anyone who asks you for an account concerning your great hope; yet do it with gentleness and respect'.
Much of this above is why I do have such a great hope in God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'Moreover, sanctify Jesus in the hearts of you and always ready a reason to give to anyone who asks you for an account concerning your great hope; yet do it with gentleness and respect'.
Much of this above is why I do have such a great hope in God.[/FONT]
J
Jennyyyyy
Guest
J
jimmydiggs
Guest
fair enough.
this would be the birth from above by the Spirit of God?
regeneration as some call it?
since the Bible teaches without it no one has faith. and without faith it is impossible to please God.
that all our righteousness without the new birth is as filthy rags.
certainly unregenerate people (most people) can live 'relatively' moral lives (from man's perspective).
but i understand you to be referring to one portion or version of 'salvation' - being saved from the old nature (children of wrath).
okay. but allmen will die in this mortal body.
so you mean salvation in the eternal sense, correct?
not dying?
"God says that he has accursed all man in disobedience to have mercy on all. So that none can boast above another etc come the day."
is the above a confirmation that you believe all men will eventually enter the eternal Glory of God?
none will suffer eternal separation from Him?
was the old Jewish gentleman a Christian?
was he teaching you what Jesus taught, and was he enabled by the Spirit of God (new birth) to teach you what Jesus taught - with understanding?
because Judaism teaches a form of reincarnation.
alright. when anyone dies their flesh body goes to the grave. we all know that.
i was wondering about eternal separation from God for those whose sins were not blotted out by the Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ, imputed to them by Grace through faith.
i know the Jewish man taught you this...and/or that this is your belief.
but all men's bodies go to the grave.
are you saying their soul "sleeps" until the resurrection?
or that the grave is where their soul 'rests' (consciously) until the resurrection of the body?
when a man's body is laid in the grave, it is clearly dead. i agree.
are we talking about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?
okay. the resurrection. into immortal bodies.
some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame....i believe the bible teaches this.
doesn't it?
Emmanuel's perfect life and bitter sufferings had to have a very good and critically important reason for being ordained, yes?
so something about what happens to us concerning God and eternity is extremely serious.
actually, Jesus said those who receive His free gift by faith are not judged.
there are multiple Books.
one is the Book of Life - for those whose sins are blotted out - who have been raised already to everlasting life, and then there are other Books...out of which the rest of the 'dead' are judged - each according to his works.
um...the Holy Spirit, the preaching of the Word reveals the hidden purposes of the heart (God already knows). the Word and the Law & Gospel is the two-edged sword which is intended to pierce, cut wound and heal....according to the hidden things of the heart.
the heart is deciet and wicked beyond cure.
that's why no one will enter the Kingdom of God without being born from above - the new birth, which happens in this life - through the gift of faith...wrought in us by the preaching of the gift of the Gospel, as we hear the bad news of our fate was children of wrath who have offended God and are condemned....and/but/though then hear the Good News of the gift of our salvation from God's wrath, wroguht for us through the Work of Jesus Christ on our behalf.
the heart is circumcised by The Spirit, who is God, who dwells in the one who was called and changed and is set apart and sealed. and is groomed to conform to the image of Jesus Christ. and who will be delivered Home to God without spot or wrinkle, for this is God's Will....for all who believe.
those who do not believe are condemned already.
alright. but when Paul said 'I will be known just as I am fully known', he wasn't referring to a day when he would be judged according to his works. Paul made it plain we are saved by Grace through faith and the good works God desires us to walk in we will do. because we are new creatures, who do what they were created to do. some 10, some 30, some 100.
when Paul said 'I will be known just as I am fully known' - the context was partial understanding, partial knowledge, partial abilities - he was using an illustration of trying to understand ones real self (or rather life eternal) by looking into a brushed piece of metal used as a mirror which reflects back a distorted view of Paul. the context was not trying to plumb the depths of mysteries or secret counsels of God which He has reserved only for Himself, but rather to obey and act in peace and faith according to what we have been given.....and to remember that:
1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him..."
okay...fair enough
so basically your beliefs are those of mystical Judaism:
EDEN, GARDEN OF
The Rabbis make a distinction between Gan and Eden. Samuel bar Naḥman says that Adam dwelt only in the Gan. As to Eden—"No mortal eye ever witnesseth, O God, beside thee" (Isa. lxiv. 4, Hebr.; Ber. 34b).
Earthly and Heavenly Gan Eden.
The boundary line between the natural and supernatural Gan Eden is hardly perceptible in Talmudic literature. In fact, "Gan Eden and heaven were created by one Word [of God], and the chambers of the Gan Eden are constructed as those of heaven, and as heaven is lined with rows of stars, so Gan Eden is lined with rows of the righteous, who shine like the stars" (Aggadat Shir ha-Shirim, pp. 13, 55). The leviathan disturbs the waters of the seas, and would have destroyed the life of all human beings by the bad breath of his mouth, but for the fact that he occasionally puts his head through the opening of Gan Eden, the spicy odor issuing from which acts as an antiseptic to his bad smell (B.B.75a). Ḥiyya bar Ḥanina says that God had prepared for Adam ten canopies of various precious stones in Gan Eden, and quotes Ezek. xxviii. 13 (B. B. 75a). This, according to the Midrash, relates to the celestial Gan Eden. The Zohar claims for everything on earth a prototype above (Yitro 82a). Naḥmanides also says that the narrative of Eden in Genesis has a double meaning, that besides the earthly Gan Eden and the four rivers there are their prototypes in heaven (Commentary to Gen. iv. 13)
EDEN, GARDEN OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com < click
that's fine.
to each their own...i'm just trying to find out what you believe, and from whence came your beliefs.
the New earth is not a renewed earth, it is actually a brand new, fresh earth.
not Eden restored.
it is a new creation.
and it is real and physical, not merely an 'enlightened state'.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
okay.
did the Jewish man tell you the reincarnation they teach in mystical Judaism is for jews only?
this variation says the soul must keep choosing to come back to be more and more perfected.
if you are a gentile, you won't be purged for purity.
you'll boil in hot excrement in hell.
according to some versions.
other versions say, and i don't know what the old Jewish gentleman who taught you actually believed, that all israel (jewry as a collective) IS GOD incarnate. but that certain things have to happen before God is made whole, on earth.
one of those things is called Tikkun Olam - the divine sparks within the jews enable them to repair the world - since it's in such terrible condition due to the children of israel losing most of their divinity at the golden calf incident...and those sparks which were scattered as a result (and landed on and in gentiles) must be recovered before all will be well.
does that make sense? no?
in any case.....
God is a consuming fire.
God's Word has the power to save men's souls, for all scripture is God breathed.
the Gospel is the power of salvation to all who believe.
this is for today...this day...this life.
today is the day of salvation.
because without Holiness, no one will see God.
and it's not our personal holiness (apart from Christ) that will stand in His Presence.
it is the Righteousness of Christ which is our covering, and is the only Righteousness God is pleased with.
He gives it to us...as a gift. just like he gave Adam bloody animals skins to cover his sin and nakedness.
but the Second Adam is not like the First Adam
He was made to be sin though he knew none. for us.
that we may be made the Righteousness of God.
we are not justified by anything we have done.
you know that right?
it's not how "good" we are that saves us.
oh....well there's nothing like this recorded in the Bible, but i understand some people believe this.
reincarnation of varying kinds.
oh....clearly the old Jewish man didn't understand then.
the Temple Jesus spoke of was HIS body.
which they did do - they killed Him and 3 days later he rose from the grave.
it was prophesied to happen. He was raised in His body to prove God had accepted His sacrifice for sin.
and we who are buried with Him are also raised with Him in His Resurrection - this is the First Resurrection.
the new birth.
this is when the new heart/mind is received - it's a gift...from God.
he creates it. He does the Work.
i don't know what religion this is.....
um....He proclaimed His victory to the spirits in chains.
it doesn't say He preached the Gospel to anyone.
it doesn't say anywhere anyone "got a second chance".
so all men will ultimately enter eternal Glory with God?
k...thank you
right.
thanks very much. i hope it's okay to have taken the opportunity to express what i believe, as well.
zone
fair enough.
this would be the birth from above by the Spirit of God?
regeneration as some call it?
since the Bible teaches without it no one has faith. and without faith it is impossible to please God.
that all our righteousness without the new birth is as filthy rags.
certainly unregenerate people (most people) can live 'relatively' moral lives (from man's perspective).
but i understand you to be referring to one portion or version of 'salvation' - being saved from the old nature (children of wrath).
okay. but allmen will die in this mortal body.
so you mean salvation in the eternal sense, correct?
not dying?
"God says that he has accursed all man in disobedience to have mercy on all. So that none can boast above another etc come the day."
is the above a confirmation that you believe all men will eventually enter the eternal Glory of God?
none will suffer eternal separation from Him?
was the old Jewish gentleman a Christian?
was he teaching you what Jesus taught, and was he enabled by the Spirit of God (new birth) to teach you what Jesus taught - with understanding?
because Judaism teaches a form of reincarnation.
alright. when anyone dies their flesh body goes to the grave. we all know that.
i was wondering about eternal separation from God for those whose sins were not blotted out by the Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ, imputed to them by Grace through faith.
i know the Jewish man taught you this...and/or that this is your belief.
but all men's bodies go to the grave.
are you saying their soul "sleeps" until the resurrection?
or that the grave is where their soul 'rests' (consciously) until the resurrection of the body?
when a man's body is laid in the grave, it is clearly dead. i agree.
are we talking about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?
okay. the resurrection. into immortal bodies.
some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame....i believe the bible teaches this.
doesn't it?
Emmanuel's perfect life and bitter sufferings had to have a very good and critically important reason for being ordained, yes?
so something about what happens to us concerning God and eternity is extremely serious.
actually, Jesus said those who receive His free gift by faith are not judged.
there are multiple Books.
one is the Book of Life - for those whose sins are blotted out - who have been raised already to everlasting life, and then there are other Books...out of which the rest of the 'dead' are judged - each according to his works.
um...the Holy Spirit, the preaching of the Word reveals the hidden purposes of the heart (God already knows). the Word and the Law & Gospel is the two-edged sword which is intended to pierce, cut wound and heal....according to the hidden things of the heart.
the heart is deciet and wicked beyond cure.
that's why no one will enter the Kingdom of God without being born from above - the new birth, which happens in this life - through the gift of faith...wrought in us by the preaching of the gift of the Gospel, as we hear the bad news of our fate was children of wrath who have offended God and are condemned....and/but/though then hear the Good News of the gift of our salvation from God's wrath, wroguht for us through the Work of Jesus Christ on our behalf.
the heart is circumcised by The Spirit, who is God, who dwells in the one who was called and changed and is set apart and sealed. and is groomed to conform to the image of Jesus Christ. and who will be delivered Home to God without spot or wrinkle, for this is God's Will....for all who believe.
those who do not believe are condemned already.
alright. but when Paul said 'I will be known just as I am fully known', he wasn't referring to a day when he would be judged according to his works. Paul made it plain we are saved by Grace through faith and the good works God desires us to walk in we will do. because we are new creatures, who do what they were created to do. some 10, some 30, some 100.
when Paul said 'I will be known just as I am fully known' - the context was partial understanding, partial knowledge, partial abilities - he was using an illustration of trying to understand ones real self (or rather life eternal) by looking into a brushed piece of metal used as a mirror which reflects back a distorted view of Paul. the context was not trying to plumb the depths of mysteries or secret counsels of God which He has reserved only for Himself, but rather to obey and act in peace and faith according to what we have been given.....and to remember that:
1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him..."
okay...fair enough
so basically your beliefs are those of mystical Judaism:
EDEN, GARDEN OF
The Rabbis make a distinction between Gan and Eden. Samuel bar Naḥman says that Adam dwelt only in the Gan. As to Eden—"No mortal eye ever witnesseth, O God, beside thee" (Isa. lxiv. 4, Hebr.; Ber. 34b).
Earthly and Heavenly Gan Eden.
The boundary line between the natural and supernatural Gan Eden is hardly perceptible in Talmudic literature. In fact, "Gan Eden and heaven were created by one Word [of God], and the chambers of the Gan Eden are constructed as those of heaven, and as heaven is lined with rows of stars, so Gan Eden is lined with rows of the righteous, who shine like the stars" (Aggadat Shir ha-Shirim, pp. 13, 55). The leviathan disturbs the waters of the seas, and would have destroyed the life of all human beings by the bad breath of his mouth, but for the fact that he occasionally puts his head through the opening of Gan Eden, the spicy odor issuing from which acts as an antiseptic to his bad smell (B.B.75a). Ḥiyya bar Ḥanina says that God had prepared for Adam ten canopies of various precious stones in Gan Eden, and quotes Ezek. xxviii. 13 (B. B. 75a). This, according to the Midrash, relates to the celestial Gan Eden. The Zohar claims for everything on earth a prototype above (Yitro 82a). Naḥmanides also says that the narrative of Eden in Genesis has a double meaning, that besides the earthly Gan Eden and the four rivers there are their prototypes in heaven (Commentary to Gen. iv. 13)
EDEN, GARDEN OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com < click
that's fine.
to each their own...i'm just trying to find out what you believe, and from whence came your beliefs.
the New earth is not a renewed earth, it is actually a brand new, fresh earth.
not Eden restored.
it is a new creation.
and it is real and physical, not merely an 'enlightened state'.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
okay.
did the Jewish man tell you the reincarnation they teach in mystical Judaism is for jews only?
this variation says the soul must keep choosing to come back to be more and more perfected.
if you are a gentile, you won't be purged for purity.
you'll boil in hot excrement in hell.
according to some versions.
other versions say, and i don't know what the old Jewish gentleman who taught you actually believed, that all israel (jewry as a collective) IS GOD incarnate. but that certain things have to happen before God is made whole, on earth.
one of those things is called Tikkun Olam - the divine sparks within the jews enable them to repair the world - since it's in such terrible condition due to the children of israel losing most of their divinity at the golden calf incident...and those sparks which were scattered as a result (and landed on and in gentiles) must be recovered before all will be well.
does that make sense? no?
in any case.....
God is a consuming fire.
God's Word has the power to save men's souls, for all scripture is God breathed.
the Gospel is the power of salvation to all who believe.
this is for today...this day...this life.
today is the day of salvation.
because without Holiness, no one will see God.
and it's not our personal holiness (apart from Christ) that will stand in His Presence.
it is the Righteousness of Christ which is our covering, and is the only Righteousness God is pleased with.
He gives it to us...as a gift. just like he gave Adam bloody animals skins to cover his sin and nakedness.
but the Second Adam is not like the First Adam
He was made to be sin though he knew none. for us.
that we may be made the Righteousness of God.
we are not justified by anything we have done.
you know that right?
it's not how "good" we are that saves us.
oh....well there's nothing like this recorded in the Bible, but i understand some people believe this.
reincarnation of varying kinds.
oh....clearly the old Jewish man didn't understand then.
the Temple Jesus spoke of was HIS body.
which they did do - they killed Him and 3 days later he rose from the grave.
it was prophesied to happen. He was raised in His body to prove God had accepted His sacrifice for sin.
and we who are buried with Him are also raised with Him in His Resurrection - this is the First Resurrection.
the new birth.
this is when the new heart/mind is received - it's a gift...from God.
he creates it. He does the Work.
i don't know what religion this is.....
um....He proclaimed His victory to the spirits in chains.
it doesn't say He preached the Gospel to anyone.
it doesn't say anywhere anyone "got a second chance".
so all men will ultimately enter eternal Glory with God?
k...thank you
right.
thanks very much. i hope it's okay to have taken the opportunity to express what i believe, as well.
zone
Thanks for that.
I think you sort of misunderstood what I meant by 'Gan Eden' and 'Heaven'.
Heaven is the enlightened state of mind (to me) in which the renewed, cleansed, and righteous enter into the physical place 'Gan Eden' (the new/renewed Eden).
Also;
1 Peter 3:18-19
ὅτι καὶ Χριστὸς ἅπαξ περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπέθανεν, δίκαιος ὑπὲρ ἀδίκων, ἵνα ὑμᾶς προσαγάγῃ τῷ θεῷ θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκὶ ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι· ἐν ᾧ καὶ τοῖς ἐν φυλακῇ πνεύμασιν πορευθεὶς ἐκήρυξεν,
Literally and basically translated as;
Because indeed Christ once for sins suffered, righteous for unrighteous, that us he bring to God; having been put to death indeed in human nature, yet having been made alive however in spirit. In which (death of human nature, life of spirit) also to the imprisoned spirits, having gone, he preached.
In modern English;
Because indeed, Christ suffered once for sins; justness for unjustness, that having been put to death in the carnal, and made alive in the Spirit of Holiness, he bring us near to God. In this state he went to the imprisoned spirits and preached.
Also;
1 Corinthians 3:16
Οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ναὸς θεοῦ ἐστε καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν ὑμῖν οἰκεῖ;
Not know you that temple of God you are? and the spirit of God, in you dwells?
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and the spirit of God takes it's abode within you?
Thanks again
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And the word 'aionion' just as a sidenote;
'The eternal fire'. Aion means 'age' - an age, of ageless quality.
Matthew 25:41
τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων· πορεύεσθε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ κατηραμένοι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ.
Then he will say also to those on the left; go from me, those who are in curse, into the fire which is ageless, which has been prepared for the 'diabolo', (which means 'that which destroys, slanders, or accuses') and the delegates of it.
'The eternal fire'. Aion means 'age' - an age, of ageless quality.
Matthew 25:41
τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων· πορεύεσθε ἀπ’ ἐμοῦ κατηραμένοι εἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ.
Then he will say also to those on the left; go from me, those who are in curse, into the fire which is ageless, which has been prepared for the 'diabolo', (which means 'that which destroys, slanders, or accuses') and the delegates of it.
So in turn, really, I believe Jesus mainly taught a way to get under 'the rule of God'. To be subservient A method of becoming 'enlightened' in your heart, being 'saved' from carnal nature and desire insofar as we can in life. I mean, that's what I truly thing.
Because well, really, what happens after death happens after death and it's not like we have much control over that. But this mortal life's purpose, which we have massive ability to focus on right-thinking, should be to come to the peace of God and share it with others.
There's a sying;
If I worship for fear of hell; give me hell. If I worship for a pace in paradise, close to me its gates. But if I worship just to see your form, then I know you won't begrudge me the True Beauty.
Because well, really, what happens after death happens after death and it's not like we have much control over that. But this mortal life's purpose, which we have massive ability to focus on right-thinking, should be to come to the peace of God and share it with others.
There's a sying;
If I worship for fear of hell; give me hell. If I worship for a pace in paradise, close to me its gates. But if I worship just to see your form, then I know you won't begrudge me the True Beauty.
I wish there was a section on here for unorthodox translations and ideas; that would be quite cool. Cause people always have insights that they are maybe afraid to share but the tone matters more than the content I think. The scientific factual literal approach works for some people and not for others.
But there's very little actually concerning the afterlife in the bible anyway so it can be difficult for some people.
To me we are all on a journey towards God whether we know it or not, because everybody needs that step towards him.
But there's very little actually concerning the afterlife in the bible anyway so it can be difficult for some people.
To me we are all on a journey towards God whether we know it or not, because everybody needs that step towards him.
J
jimmydiggs
Guest
Muslims want to conquer, by force or by birth. Europe is a target right now. What's so bad about acknowleging that, Zone?
do you read greek?
In that state He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison
to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water
so are you saying Jesus went to those imprisoned spirits (whose bodies perished in the flood) and preached the Good News to them and they got a second chance?
just to be clear. thanks.
I don't know for sure, but here;
Ekeryxin from 'kerusso';
proclaim
authoritatively persuade
announce
Not far from euggelizo, and anggelo, which is something similar to our word 'gospel', which means sharing the complete message of the good news, from eungelion.
He shared a total, infallible truth of good proportions. Victoriously, with vigor.
Doesn't sound like damning, personally.
no, i think i understood what you meant...maybe not though
could we go to scripture and say that this is what the renewed mind is actually a result of; doing; will do ?
does this match what you meant?
Romans 12
1I appeal to you therefore, brothers,a by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Ephesians 4
17Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20But that is not the way you learned Christ!— 21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22to put off your old self,e which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
so, it says not all men's minds are being renewed.
only those who are in Christ, new creatures.
only those in Christ have a new self - would you agree with this?
i suppose that was what i was asking to begin with - about the universal salvation of all men.
kind of....do you believe all men are being renewed - in this life or will be in another time and place....a purgatory or hades or some place where they are purified?
because i don't see that in scripture.
where is it?
scripture says it is The Gospel which is the power unto salvation to all who believe.
not how 'good' people are.
doesn't it?
Also;
1 Corinthians 3:16
Οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ναὸς θεοῦ ἐστε καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν ὑμῖν οἰκεῖ;
Not know you that temple of God you are? and the spirit of God, in you dwells?
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and the spirit of God takes it's abode within you?
Thanks again
right...but this is referring only to those who have been born from above.
those who were called, heard, believed and obeyed this:
Acts 2
38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
so i just really wondered if the above applies to anyone (receiving the Spirit) who is not called, hears, believes and obeys.
i don't see any universal salvation for all mankind in scripture.
maybe i'm missing it.
yup. thanks again to you as well
also - are you familiar with Dallas Willard at all?
okay...n.p.:
so you believe Jesus preached the Good News to (and saved):
"those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built".
since we are just speculating......they must have all been saved, because who would be in a dark prison for a thousand years, see Jesus Christ, hear they could be free....and refuse?
so this must be universal salvation for all pre-flood sinners....okay.
that's fine. i know many believe that.
thanks....carrying on then....
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okay...n.p.:
so you believe Jesus preached the Good News to (and saved):
"those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built".
since we are just speculating......they must have all been saved, because who would be in a dark prison for a thousand years, see Jesus Christ, hear they could be free....and refuse?
so this must be universal salvation for all pre-flood sinners....okay.
that's fine. i know many believe that.
thanks....carrying on then....
Well, that's not exactly what I said but you have a point.
There's also the question of 'are they even awake in death' or did they just arise when Jesus got there to hear him speak?
Shoel is really, 'the resting place' of the dead. Their abode.
So they obviously haven't been judged yet as judgement day hasn't come yet.
So I mean, it's plausible either way.
Then there's the question of the literal merits of the biblical flood versus a parable type moral and philosophical lesson concerning state of mind.
there's a lot of speculation. But personally, yea I think the word leans towards preaching good news rather than damning, and as a literal happening.
I'm still doing a lot of research and trying to find out what's what, but yea.
there's a lot of speculation. But personally, yea I think the word leans towards preaching good news rather than damning, and as a literal happening.
I'm still doing a lot of research and trying to find out what's what, but yea.
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Islam is a false religion, and there are elements within it which have either been radicalized, or are nutjobs.
i acknowledge that.
what i do not do is look at close-ups of angry mobs with twisted faces and fists raised; reruns of arabs burning american flags; read western 'think-tank' assessments of the situation; believe everything i see on television.
what i also do not do is believe for one moment Sharia Law or anything remotely like that would be allowed to usurp Western (formerly Christian nations') Law, particularly in the former Constitutional Republic of the Formerly United States of America unless it was part of a broader agenda.
but we can talk about it.
one thing that comes to mind concerning the Media and it's role in the Game:
a famous shot of raging muslims rampaging and firing rifles into the air and burning flags we were told was taking place LIVE in one of the Arab Spring dominoes was actually old footage from an uprising in Egypt a decade prior....someone got smart and saw the flags in the background. that story and the links were pulled quickly.
i'll get the details on it.
another thing that comes to mind concerning the stoking of all this Clash of Civilzations stuff is - and i saw this with my own eyes, saved it, viewed it many times, and actually posted it HERE at CC years ago. it's since been pulled and can not be found anywhere.
so you'd have to take my word for it (though i will look again, i haven`t been able to locate it even with expert help).
during the events of 9-11, as we were shown endless loops of footage of various things, one segment we were shown, a still from which made the cover of Time or one of those (i'll have another look if i get time today).....
the IMAGE:
supposedly an old snaggletoothed Arab (Palestinian) woman raising her arms CHEERING that America was struck on 9-11.
the headline said something to the effect:
ARABS CHEER AS AMERICA MOURNS
(again, i'll try to round up the details later...its been awhile and i do kinda get tired of doing this)
.................
IN REALITY:
what the "TV crew" who filmed the cheering bloodthirsty Arabs on 9-11 DID NOT KNOW was that they themselves were being filmed by a citizen from behind.
the "TV crew" who documented that awful ARAB HATRED of us for our Freedoms, was a small group of Chabad Lubavitchers with a basket of bottled water and candy....they were handing it out to grateful Palestinians who's kids were thrilled....those people hadn't even HEARD OF THE 9-11 EVENTS YET.
what the bloodthirsty old arab hag was actually doing was raising her hands in gratitude and giving thanks for the water and the candy.
she was later the poster-girl for how much Islam hates us and how awful arabs are.
~
i don't like Islam, diggs.
i don't want Islamic Law, i don't want people forced into any religion or beliefs they do not freely choose.
what i wonder is.....how is this being PERMITTED in the Western Nations who have the power to stop it at their borders, if not once it manifests itself in society?
ANSWER; it's part of the game.
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