When does God say that two are married?

[Markum1972]

I mean no disrespect by saying this, but the answers I want are scripture; not...

*What you were taught in church.
*What you were taught by mom and dad.
*What the laws of men dictate.

I want scripture only on what is holy and acceptable to God. Any of the above will only lead to debate and strife; things we are told to refrain from.

I am posting this as an opportunity for us to come and reason together; that we may come in one accord, and in agreement, within the love of God on this matter.

 

[Jullianna]

Mark 10: Jesus replied. [SUP]6 [/SUP]“But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ [SUP]7 [/SUP]‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,[SUP]8 [/SUP]and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

For me, marriage is when a believing man and woman, recognizing the holiness of marriage, commit themselves to one another in His presence for life in every way and become one in the eyes of God. Anything less is just a piece of paper.

 

[CatHerder]

[SUP]For me, marriage is when two believers, recognizing the holiness of marriage...

I don't think marriage has to be between two believers only. Jesus recognized the five marriages of the Samaritan woman. In this same passage, he also distinguished between married and shacking up:

16 [/SUP]He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]“I have no husband,” she replied.
Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. [SUP]18 [/SUP]The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

 

[Markum1972]

I don't think marriage has to be between two believers only. Jesus recognized the five marriages of the Samaritan woman. In this same passage, he also distinguished between married and shacking up[/SIZE]:

16 [/SUP]He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]“I have no husband,” she replied.
Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. [SUP]18 [/SUP]The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

What you posted is from John 4. There is no great detail of this woman and her relationship to the man that Jesus said "she now has". I knew of a woman that lived with a man that cared for her. There was no evidence that they ever "became one flesh" or "knew each other". If Jesus was recognizing that the man was not her husband, then I would have to say that their relationship was similar to this.

I know of another man that is the same kind of situation. He lives with a woman and cares for her. She is in her mid 30s and a virgin even now. I see him as the man that she now has but is not her husband.

I think you are right to say that marriage is not only for believers. It is for any that cling and become one flesh. However, unbelief is why the world (unbelievers) is so full of fornication. They do not understand how God created things to be and therefore do not remain committed. It is also written that we (believers) are not to yoke ourselves to unbelievers. So I think that Jullianna was speaking as to what is holy and acceptable to God for a believer; not for the world (please correct me if I am mistaken).

 

[Jullianna]

I don't think marriage has to be between two believers only. Jesus recognized the five marriages of the Samaritan woman. In this same passage, he also distinguished between married and shacking up[/SIZE]:

16 [/SUP]He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“I have no husband,” she replied.
Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. [SUP]18 [/SUP]The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

In life we can settle for what may not "have to be" or we can seek God's perfect will for us. This passage is a perfect example of the damage that can come from settling for less.

 

[Jullianna]

So I think that Jullianna was speaking as to what is holy and acceptable to God for a believer; not for the world (please correct me if I am mistaken).

Thank you. I was indeed speaking to marriage as I see it: a model of our relationship with Christ - a holy thing.

The reason I specifically mentioned believers is the scripture that talks about allowing an unbelieving spouse to leave the marriage if they want to go. It has always made me wonder if they were ever truly married in the eyes of God. Just something that rattles around in my brain..

You are absolutely right about the way the world views marriage. They want to drag it down to man's level and redefine it until it no longer has meaning.

 

[Markum1972]

Thank you. I was indeed speaking to marriage as I see it: a model of our relationship with Christ - a holy thing.

The reason I specifically mentioned believers is the scripture that talks about allowing an unbelieving spouse to leave the marriage if they want to go. It has always made me wonder if they were ever truly married in the eyes of God. Just something that rattles around in my brain..

You are absolutely right about the way the world views marriage. They want to drag it down to man's level and redefine it until it no longer has meaning.

Well, hopefully this helps to clear things up a bit for you as it has for me. Remember that it also says earlier in that same chapter that if the unbelieving is pleased to remain with the believer, not to leave them.

1 Corinthians 7
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

I agree also about the world's view. It is like scripture says "every man doing that which is right in his own eyes"; even wanting to make marriage a union for man with man and woman with woman. Scripture says that this is unseemly workings and not natural affection. Yet it seems that none even consider where marriage first began. Instead of seeing that they are trying to steal away and change something that was not created for their purpose, they demand that they have a right for it to be changed. It would be like me saying, "Well, I don't think that it is right that wheels are only made round... they should be able to be square too." Umm... that kind of defeats the purpose. lol As it is written, they are given over to a reprobate mind, blinded to the truth.
Father forgive them. They do not know what they are doing.

 

[Jullianna]

That's exactly it for me. Marriage belongs to the One Who created it. It is not ours to mess with. I learned as a tiny girl how dangerously wrong it can be to mess with things that didn't belong to me.

 

[iTOREtheSKY]

Thank you. I was indeed speaking to marriage as I see it: a model of our relationship with Christ - a holy thing.

The reason I specifically mentioned believers is the scripture that talks about allowing an unbelieving spouse to leave the marriage if they want to go. It has always made me wonder if they were ever truly married in the eyes of God. Just something that rattles around in my brain..

You are absolutely right about the way the world views marriage. They want to drag it down to man's level and redefine it until it no longer has meaning.

Yanno I have quietly pondered this as well Jullianna. When I was married to an unbeliever,somewhere in the back of my head..maybe it was the Holy Spirit...thinking,"Did this really take...is this official?" In my heart I was committed 100% to her & to us...yanno what...gosh,I need to see if I have a copy of this laying around,I know I have our dvd still & I may have to break it out,to hear again what our wedding vows were to each other. I remember the minister,dunno what she was...I think we had her read some poem thing...and I'm pretty sure we said the til death do you part stuff,but to be honest I don't remember the word God anywhere in our vows.Wow...I think I blocked that out,I think I remember at the time even saying like my own secret prayer in my head or vow to God that day. Ugh..what a can of worms you've all opened.LOL but thank you! Very interesting. I will really feel like an ultimate failure now,if God really wasn't there at all...nah he must have been a little...his Spirit never leaves us. ONE MORE TIME BOYS & GIRLS...DO NOT MARRY AN UNBELIEVER..EVER...NEVER...-PATOOIE! lol

 

[Markum1972]

That's exactly it for me. Marriage belongs to the One Who created it. It is not ours to mess with. I learned as a tiny girl how dangerously wrong it can be to mess with things that didn't belong to me.

I was once captive to the world system. It had me so discouraged that I had no honor for marriage. I was basing my view on what I was seeing in the world. As I have grown to walk in the light of the truth, God has reconciled me to Himself and shown me the truth about the true beauty of a godly marriage.

I see many others that hold very negative views towards marriage. It makes me sad and I am moved with compassion towards them. I hope that they seek God on it and let Him show them the truth.

 

[Markum1972]

Yanno I have quietly pondered this as well Jullianna. When I was married to an unbeliever,somewhere in the back of my head..maybe it was the Holy Spirit...thinking,"Did this really take...is this official?" In my heart I was committed 100% to her & to us...yanno what...gosh,I need to see if I have a copy of this laying around,I know I have our dvd still & I may have to break it out,to hear again what our wedding vows were to each other. I remember the minister,dunno what she was...I think we had her read some poem thing...and I'm pretty sure we said the til death do you part stuff,but to be honest I don't remember the word God anywhere in our vows.Wow...I think I blocked that out,I think I remember at the time even saying like my own secret prayer in my head or vow to God that day. Ugh..what a can of worms you've all opened.LOL but thank you! Very interesting. I will really feel like an ultimate failure now,if God really wasn't there at all...nah he must have been a little...his Spirit never leaves us. ONE MORE TIME BOYS & GIRLS...DO NOT MARRY AN UNBELIEVER..EVER...NEVER...-PATOOIE! lol

You are not a failure. "In my heart I was committed 100% to her & to us". I take it by this that she left you despite you being faithful. You have done no wrong in letting her go. Take a good look at the scriptures that we posted here.

Your testimony is of great importance. You have witnessed the hardship of being unequally yoked to an unbeliever. Others need to hear your voice on this matter that they would be encouraged to be patient and not make the same compromises that many of us have.

 

[iTOREtheSKY]

I was once captive to the world system. It had me so discouraged that I had no honor for marriage. I was basing my view on what I was seeing in the world. As I have grown to walk in the light of the truth, God has reconciled me to Himself and shown me the truth about the true beauty of a godly marriage.

I see many others that hold very negative views towards marriage. It makes me sad and I am moved with compassion towards them. I hope that they seek God on it and let Him show them the truth.

Yanno Markum...I can't believe I am saying this,but for the 1st time in over a year I feel 100% confident & open to the idea of getting married again some day if that is what the Lord would want me to do. I don't want to be one of those anti-marriage people. Just because I made the choice to marry an unbeliever & be unequally yolked for nearly 10 yrs,why should I make others feel bad for wanting to take the plunge? I do believe you can be unequally yolked with believers as well,but in a different way than if you were with a non believer. Everything as always needs to be on God's time table..not ours.

 

[iTOREtheSKY]

You are not a failure. "In my heart I was committed 100% to her & to us". I take it by this that she left you despite you being faithful. You have done no wrong in letting her go. Take a good look at the scriptures that we posted here.

Your testimony is of great importance. You have witnessed the hardship of being unequally yoked to an unbeliever. Others need to hear your voice on this matter that they would be encouraged to be patient and not make the same compromises that many of us have.

Thanks! lol (the joys of posting a response while someone else is too & saying almost the same thing)

 

[AAAPlus]

What you posted is from John 4. There is no great detail of this woman and her relationship to the man that Jesus said "she now has". I knew of a woman that lived with a man that cared for her. There was no evidence that they ever "became one flesh" or "knew each other". If Jesus was recognizing that the man was not her husband, then I would have to say that their relationship was similar to this.

I know of another man that is the same kind of situation. He lives with a woman and cares for her. She is in her mid 30s and a virgin even now. I see him as the man that she now has but is not her husband.

I feel like you're implying that if two people have sex, they are automatically married.

 

[Markum1972]

Thanks! lol (the joys of posting a response while someone else is too & saying almost the same thing)

Wow... what an awesome encouragement and testimony of God's love and restoration that you have. We know that God does not want our hearts to become hardened and for our love to grow cold. We know that God sent Jesus to heal the broken-hearted and that He has also sent us to do the same thing by His Spirit.
I know that God has great things prepared for you. You have been a great encouragement to me and I know that you will be for many others.

 

[Markum1972]

I feel like you're implying that if two people have sex, they are automatically married.

I am not "implying" anything. I recommend reading all of the posts. If you have scripture that would shed more light on this, please feel free to post it. Please also refer back to the first post and the topic of this thread.

 

[MidniteWelder]

I feel like you're implying that if two people have sex, they are automatically married.

Bingo
What is the definition of marriage= the joining of two things
How do two people become one flesh= through sex by biblical definition

Don't be misled by the world into thinking one can partake of the rights only reserved for marriage without considering themselves married. That would be self seeking after the flesh right. Wanting it both ways. IE:
serving two masters thinking I want sex but I dont want the guidelines God laid out for that right within marriage.
Sex outside of marriage is defined as fornication.
When Jesus spoke with the woman in John 4, yes he was implying she was married whether SHE personally cared enough to acknowledge it that way or not, God himself does.
God makes the rules not us. We can abide by his guidelines or break them, but we cannot define nor change them to suit our own wants.
As well Jesus pointed out that if any look at another lustfully it would be the same as if one had sex outside of marriage since the act was committed within the heart and mind, its called greed, again trying to take what is not rightfully theirs by trying to feed the flesh instead of the spirit.
Can one go collect a paycheck without being committed to ones duties at a company?
If one did that would either be extortion or stealing

 

[Jullianna]

Genesis 2: 18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,


“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

When Jesus was talking about divorce, he said that Moses had made allowances, but from the beginning it was not intended to be so. (Matthew 19) How many other things did people do in the OT that were "permissible", but not as God intended from the beginning? A lot, right? Is it wrong to want to have a marriage as God originally intended it?

While I agree that man and wife joining together sexually is a very important part of marriage (not to mention one of the fun parts ), since Eve was created by God as a "helpmate" and not a "sex partner", I don't understand how sexual relations with someone equals a godly marriage. There is so much more to it.

 

[Markum1972]

Genesis 2: 18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,


“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for she was taken out of man.”

24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.

25 Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

When Jesus was talking about divorce, he said that Moses had made allowances, but from the beginning it was not intended to be so. (Matthew 19) How many other things did people do in the OT that were "permissible", but not as God intended from the beginning? A lot, right? Is it wrong to want to have a marriage as God originally intended it?

While I agree that man and wife joining together sexually is a very important part of marriage (not to mention one of the fun parts ), since Eve was created by God as a "helpmate" and not a "sex partner", I don't understand how sexual relations with someone equals a godly marriage. There is so much more to it.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you at all on that one. I certainly don't. If sexual relations was equal to a godly marriage, then the world would be full of them.

The question being addressed is "When are two married according to God?" At what moment is this union official? Even the laws of men recognize annulments saying that if the marriage was not consummated, then it was never official or final.

I think that this is something of great importance. I think that if more people that love God understood this, they would exercise much more self-control.

Sex is to be reserved for within this holy union. It is written that the two should not withhold from one another without consent. This means that it should be agreed by both that they will not do it for a period of time. Yet I see many (men and women) use it as a form of control and manipulation withholding from the other person.

There is a great deal more to this holy union than sex. The love that a man has for his wife should be the same as the love that Christ has for the church. He should be willing to sacrifice his life in order to save hers. The woman should love the man and be willing to submit to him as the head of the household.

Maybe one of us should start a new thread about the dynamics of marriage. I am sure that would prove to be one VERY long thread. lol

 

[Jullianna]

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you at all on that one. I certainly don't. If sexual relations was equal to a godly marriage, then the world would be full of them.

The question being addressed is "When are two married according to God?" At what moment is this union official? Even the laws of men recognize annulments saying that if the marriage was not consummated, then it was never official or final.

I think that this is something of great importance. I think that if more people that love God understood this, they would exercise much more self-control.

Sex is to be reserved for within this holy union. It is written that the two should not withhold from one another without consent. This means that it should be agreed by both that they will not do it for a period of time. Yet I see many (men and women) use it as a form of control and manipulation withholding from the other person.

There is a great deal more to this holy union than sex. The love that a man has for his wife should be the same as the love that Christ has for the church. He should be willing to sacrifice his life in order to save hers. The woman should love the man and be willing to submit to him as the head of the household.

Maybe one of us should start a new thread about the dynamics of marriage. I am sure that would prove to be one VERY long thread. lol

I believe a couple could still be married in the eyes of God even if they did not have the ability to have sex, but I do see your point and it is a good one.