An atheist's testimony

[Esarin]

I have a very scientific mind as well. I understand being skeptical. I have struggled with my relationship with God for years. All I know, is when I have prayed I FELT him. It was like peacefulness washed over me. I felt like I had nothing left and that I was alone. I prayed to God to help me. He uplifted me and I haven't been the same since.

 

[Esarin]

I still have a hard time when my logical brain kicks in and tries to say, "There is no way that happened." or "This makes NO sense." I hope I don't get a lot of back lash for this, but I still believe parts of the bible has been lost or parts could have been misinterpreted. You are talking several thousand years and different languages or translation. Even if it were never done on purpose it could have been changed. That is what my logical brain tells me. I just know what I feel. God is real. He has saved my life.

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

Hiii, I don't know why you think that the fact that I wont believe on faith, without evidence, means that I wouldn't even believe if I understood evidence. You don't have to be willing to believe something without evidence to become convinced by evidence.
Like... I have ten bunkers filled with tonnes of gold, guarded by a small army. Believe me without evidence? No?
Does the fact that you don't believe that claim mean that you wouldn't believe it even if I took you on a tour around those bunkers? Of course not

So ya it does sound like illogical dribble as you predicted
But I sure do appreciate the attempt to explain it, that's what I'm looking for

It doesn't take faith to think a painting should have had a painter, we have very good reasons for thinking that's necessary
If you refuse to look at or listen to any evidence that Australia exists, you can keep yourself uninformed, but ignoring evidence isn't what I'm doing in my search for evidence of God. You're saying he doesn't supply any evidence because I wouldn't believe it anyway (but I don't think that's a justified claim, I don't agree that any of your examples show that I need to believe without evidence before I can believe with evidence)

Thanks for the solid effort though, maybe you can expand on your examples a bit for me?
Did you mean to suggest there's not sufficient reasons to predict that a random, unidentified painting has a painter?
Oooo ooo and, did you mean that faith in anything pleases God, or only faith in him? How am I meant to know to have faith in that particular thing if there's no evidence it's the truth? Having faith in any false religion will also induce amazing, potentially convincing experiences too

The reason I say you would not believe evidence, is because there is daily evidence of God's existence. How do you think the universe came to be? What are your theories on how the conditions on this planet are so perfect that we can exist here? What about the intricate detail of human design? To me, that shows evidence of God but someone without faith in God will not see it that way. People think differently, as you and I do. It's sort of a "which came first? The chicken or the egg?" theme and one of us says chicken and the other egg because our minds are wired differently.

I believe it does take faith to believe a painting has a painter. It also takes faith to believe the universe and everything in existence is not by accident. God is pleased by faith depending on what it is. There is a lot of logic and evidence behind believing in a deity. It is rather arrogant to assume that because we exist it must have always been that way. And if it hasn't always been that way, how did we get here? What are your theories on this as a man of science?

As for your claims on scientists going from Theistic to Atheist, many brilliant scientists did not believe in a God or deity, but they themselves have said that everything in science is down to such detail that SOMEthing must have wanted us here. They did not all believe in God, but they were able to make those claims.

Actually I'm rather enjoying this debate of sorts LoL I find it fascinating to see from your point of view. Please feel free to ask more questions and I will answer to the best of my ability.

 

[HappyLuke]

The reason I say you would not believe evidence, is because there is daily evidence of God's existence. How do you think the universe came to be? What are your theories on how the conditions on this planet are so perfect that we can exist here? What about the intricate detail of human design? To me, that shows evidence of God but someone without faith in God will not see it that way. People think differently, as you and I do. It's sort of a "which came first? The chicken or the egg?" theme and one of us says chicken and the other egg because our minds are wired differently.

I believe it does take faith to believe a painting has a painter. It also takes faith to believe the universe and everything in existence is not by accident. God is pleased by faith depending on what it is. There is a lot of logic and evidence behind believing in a deity. It is rather arrogant to assume that because we exist it must have always been that way. And if it hasn't always been that way, how did we get here? What are your theories on this as a man of science?

As for your claims on scientists going from Theistic to Atheist, many brilliant scientists did not believe in a God or deity, but they themselves have said that everything in science is down to such detail that SOMEthing must have wanted us here. They did not all believe in God, but they were able to make those claims.

Actually I'm rather enjoying this debate of sorts LoL I find it fascinating to see from your point of view. Please feel free to ask more questions and I will answer to the best of my ability.

You implied that all atheist scientists say something must have wanted us here - that's not true, the scientific community is broadly secular. There are some scientists out there who say they think the universe appears to be designed, but they are a minority.
> How do I think the universe came to be?
-I don't know what caused the big bang, but I think it's much more likely to have sprung from some very simple eternal origin, rather than from a complex mind. Nor does modern science know what caused the big bang, because it's a little beyond our abilities to investigate right now - but we have many hypotheses that fit all the evidence. Various eternal hyperspace multiverse models, like string theory's M-theory, or eternal inflation. Also everything-from-nothing models, like the quantum vacuum, etc.
It's an unknown That doesn't make it evidence of God

> "What are your theories on how the conditions on this planet are so perfect that we can exist here?"
- There are trillions of planets throughout the universe, all with varying attributes. It's impossible for us to have existed on one of the planets that it's impossible for us to exist on, so if Earth wasn't perfect for life, we wouldn't find ourselves on Earth, but on one of the other planets perfect for life.

> "What about the intricate detail of human design?"
- Evolution All animals are designed for survival and reproduction, there's no mystery in the intricacy, that's what hundreds of millions of years of evolution will do. In fact, I think the existence of carnivores is slight evidence against the existence of a loving designer; no loving, caring being would create minds that can feel pain and experience terror, and then design them so they have to eat each other to survive. If I were God, I'd feel a moral obligation to prevent carnivores from evolving, it would just be herbivores and plants
Only the morally blind forces of evolution would allow so much unnecessary suffering, to me. But I could be wrong

Again, I'm just not sure what you mean by saying it takes faith to think a painting probably had a painter, I don't know what faith means to you. Is it not 'believing something for which you don't understand sufficient evidence to believe'?
I'd certainly say I consider myself to understand sufficient evidence to think that paintings have painters (and that I don't have sufficient evidence to believe that reality has a conscious creator). I know of many processes where painters make paintings, and I know of no processes where natural causes make paintings. (Are we talking about a canvas and a frame and paint brushed into recognizable images? or just swirls of colour on a rock?)

 

[HappyLuke]

*I meant "in my opinion" when I said "to me". Not like... my suffering
"Only the morally blind forces of evolution would allow so much unnecessary suffering, to me. But I could be wrong"

 

[Dotann]

I have had so many miracles in my life that know one can explain. When i was on my own with my teenage son i had no money or food and time were real hard let me tell you. I had to pray for everything!

I was near Christmas time and i needed bread as the church so graciously provided a food basket for me that was greatly needed. It included a lot of things, except for bread for my son for school lunches.

So i prayed! I kid you not' but within a half an hour after this prayer and being the only one in my home and know one hearing me and not talking to anyone but God, there was a knock at my door and as i opened it, a gentleman stood there with a loaf of bread saying, This is for you, I was told to bring it to you for you needed it!

This is how my God works in my life and he has been working these kinds of miracles ever since! God is real and faith only works when we release in us the permission to say i don't need to have proof with my eyes but only your Word Lord and then stand on it! Then when we show our actions are backed up with our words, by believing it enough to withstand, God fulfills in the end!

I don't have much but i do have my faith, my love my God and my family! What more does one really need than that! Jesus has never let me down not once! trust Him,, He will do the same for you too!

 

[HappyLuke]

I have had so many miracles in my life that know one can explain. When i was on my own with my teenage son i had no money or food and time were real hard let me tell you. I had to pray for everything!

I was near Christmas time and i needed bread as the church so graciously provided a food basket for me that was greatly needed. It included a lot of things, except for bread for my son for school lunches.

So i prayed! I kid you not' but within a half an hour after this prayer and being the only one in my home and know one hearing me and not talking to anyone but God, there was a knock at my door and as i opened it, a gentleman stood there with a loaf of bread saying, This is for you, I was told to bring it to you for you needed it!

This is how my God works in my life and he has been working these kinds of miracles ever since! God is real and faith only works when we release in us the permission to say i don't need to have proof with my eyes but only your Word Lord and then stand on it! Then when we show our actions are backed up with our words, by believing it enough to withstand, God fulfills in the end!

I don't have much but i do have my faith, my love my God and my family! What more does one really need than that! Jesus has never let me down not once! trust Him,, He will do the same for you too!

Cool!
That's a pretty amazing coincidence, but we need more information to properly draw the conclusion that the cause was God.
Amazing coincidences happen to us much more often than we'd expect, because we aren't mentally able to be aware of the astronomical amount of opportunities for coincidences that are going on around us constantly. We walk around each day thinking that there were about 5 or 10 chances for an amazing coincidence, when really there were many thousands, so we'd think a one-in-a-million thing should only happen once in a lifetime, even less, but they actually happen to us every few months.
If we are looking for unspecific signs of God, it's very easy to find meaning in extreme coincidences, but really they don't demonstrate God and we'd be falling victim to 'confirmation bias'. You might have just prayed to Ganesh to bring you bread before that incident, it wouldn't have proven Ganesh (and I'm sure in India, many coincidences like that HAVE come after prayers to Ganesh instead of Jesus)

If your experience really was such convincing evidence of God though, you shouldn't tell others that they should believe even without similar evidence. Faith is unnecessary if God is really demonstrating himself to people. If it's only after you believe Christianity on faith that you would find an event evidence of Christianity, then you probably don't really think the event proves Christianity - you are probably giving yourself over to a confirmation bias.

Really great reply! Thanks, and I hoped I helped you find a possible naturalistic explanation for your experiences

 

[Dotann]

What makes you think your able to shake my faith! Really. I have been on deaths door! iI have had so many miracles that you would never believe!

There is no such thing as coincidences! God has all things under his control! Just because YOU don't believe, doesn't change what i KNOW! in fact, if the whole earths population where to stand in front of me and say i was wrong, that my god was not real, and my faith was for loss, then i would still NEVER move or budge from this same exact position i stand on now! Not even if my family were threatened, nor my life, nor the world!

For one cannot pay for true faith nor can one force it out of a person! Its either there or not. For me, i CHOOSE to stand on it and live it regardless of what anyone else says for my God has talked to me and the Holy Spirit makes Himself known to me.

The bible is not just words on a page. Its life breathed and when that Spirit of God makes His home inside of you, you become a new person that literally changes you with out denying it. You nor anyone can take that away from me.

God is REAL and He lives and loves all even those who know Him not! Even if you don't believe in God, it makes no difference, for God believes in you just the same... And you certainly cant shake His faith either!

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

Actually the definition of faith is: (noun) complete trust or confidence in something or someone.

Therefore in this context, it does take faith to believe someone painted a painting without seeing the painting being painted in front of you. You don't view the act, but you have complete trust and confidence that the artist at some point in time created it.

Also, the Big Bang theory takes more faith to believe in, because you have no evidence as to what started it. Yes there are theories... which require faith because there isn't really more sufficient evidence to believe in the Big Bang than a deity. God, a deity, can create science. God can create in humanity and the planet and creatures to adapt. Therefore, God can create creations to evolve.

Again, it takes alot more of what you call faith to believe in science than it does to believe in a deity. The concept of God requires much more brainpower and much more to wrap one's mind around than science.

 

[HappyLuke]

What makes you think your able to shake my faith! Really. I have been on deaths door! iI have had so many miracles that you would never believe!

There is no such thing as coincidences! God has all things under his control! Just because YOU don't believe, doesn't change what i KNOW! in fact, if the whole earths population where to stand in front of me and say i was wrong, that my god was not real, and my faith was for loss, then i would still NEVER move or budge from this same exact position i stand on now! Not even if my family were threatened, nor my life, nor the world!

For one cannot pay for true faith nor can one force it out of a person! Its either there or not. For me, i CHOOSE to stand on it and live it regardless of what anyone else says for my God has talked to me and the Holy Spirit makes Himself known to me.

The bible is not just words on a page. Its life breathed and when that Spirit of God makes His home inside of you, you become a new person that literally changes you with out denying it. You nor anyone can take that away from me.

God is REAL and He lives and loves all even those who know Him not! Even if you don't believe in God, it makes no difference, for God believes in you just the same... And you certainly cant shake His faith either!

I wasn't trying to take your faith away, just giving you the option to choose to have faith or not. Before, coincidences were a mystery to you and you had to assume it was God every time, I'm just giving you the ability to see that even amazing coincidences are statistically expected things in case you choose to take a sceptical approach. I understand it makes you happy and you choose to believe on faith, that's absolutely fine. I really wasn't trying to shake your faith, just showing you the sceptical path, should you choose to care about if your beliefs are properly justified by evidence.
I actually feel a moral duty to do that, because many people are born submerged in a religious, faith-promoting culture yet consider themselves to be scientifically, sceptically minded people that care about the truth. I feel a duty to offer them a helping hand out of the faith-trap; should they choose it.
I'd never force them to reject faith! (I don't think that's possible anyway, if someone doesn't care if their beliefs are justified by reason, you probably couldn't reason with them to change their beliefs).

 

[HappyLuke]

It's probably kind of like how you feel a moral duty to spread the gospel to save people from being sent to hell!
I feel a moral duty to help people to realize that IF they value holding true beliefs and avoiding holding false ones, the necessity of logical, rational, scientific evidence is something they should also value. To save people from holding unsupported beliefs! Having accurate beliefs allows you to make better judgements, always, and holding unsupported beliefs makes it easy for people to be taken advantage of.
Avoiding believing unsupported claims is absolutely paramount to avoiding holding false beliefs

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

Ultimately, you will believe what you believe. I knew somebody who was an Atheist for years and years until he had a near death experience and ever since has been preaching the gospel. I've heard many many miracles, but you aren't interested in all that. My beliefs are firmly planted in logic as well as faith. Love and well as wisdom.

I believe many of us are raised Christian, but EVERYONE has moments of doubt. EVERYONE has to find that path for themselves. Some go on a crazy journey before they reach a spiritual path. Some always stay on one with only an occassional doubt.

Again, stories that I've heard will not convince you. You have not experienced what I have and I do not have your experiences. It is part of what makes everyone unique and individual, like our fingerprints.

I believe we have reached an impasse. You can ask me more questions if you'd like, but I cannot see this going anywhere. You seem like a nice guy, but you are just as someone who has been raised Christian all their lives that you are trying to "save." You are seeing things from one viewpoint like many of us do. I have looked at your point of view many a time. I believe science and Christianity can coexist peacefully.

You and I still have much to learn and discover in this life.

 

[HappyLuke]

Actually the definition of faith is: (noun) complete trust or confidence in something or someone.

Therefore in this context, it does take faith to believe someone painted a painting without seeing the painting being painted in front of you. You don't view the act, but you have complete trust and confidence that the artist at some point in time created it.

Also, the Big Bang theory takes more faith to believe in, because you have no evidence as to what started it. Yes there are theories... which require faith because there isn't really more sufficient evidence to believe in the Big Bang than a deity. God, a deity, can create science. God can create in humanity and the planet and creatures to adapt. Therefore, God can create creations to evolve.

Again, it takes alot more of what you call faith to believe in science than it does to believe in a deity. The concept of God requires much more brainpower and much more to wrap one's mind around than science.

No, the big bang theory doesn't take faith to believe in just because we don't know what started the big bang - because we don't hold beliefs about what started the big bang!
We have fantastic evidence that the universe expanded from a super hot, super dense state about 13.8 billion years ago - and that's all we believe! Anything else that is speculated about without evidence is not believed.

If you can demonstrate to me that there's anything I believe without evidence, know what I'll do?
I'll stop believing it! And I'll thank you for helping me to eliminate an unsupported belief

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

We have fantastic evidence that the universe expanded from a super hot, super dense state about 13.8 billion years ago - and that's all we believe! Anything else that is speculated about without evidence is not believed.

That requires faith does it not? Unless you were there what makes humanity and modern science which has changed so much over the years yield fruitful evidence? We once believed the Earth to be flat. We are just now barely beginning to touch the surface in science and technology. Therefore, can we really believe it? As our knowledge and information expands, science changes.

 

[HappyLuke]

Ultimately, you will believe what you believe. I knew somebody who was an Atheist for years and years until he had a near death experience and ever since has been preaching the gospel. I've heard many many miracles, but you aren't interested in all that. My beliefs are firmly planted in logic as well as faith. Love and well as wisdom.

I believe many of us are raised Christian, but EVERYONE has moments of doubt. EVERYONE has to find that path for themselves. Some go on a crazy journey before they reach a spiritual path. Some always stay on one with only an occassional doubt.

Again, stories that I've heard will not convince you. You have not experienced what I have and I do not have your experiences. It is part of what makes everyone unique and individual, like our fingerprints.

I believe we have reached an impasse. You can ask me more questions if you'd like, but I cannot see this going anywhere. You seem like a nice guy, but you are just as someone who has been raised Christian all their lives that you are trying to "save." You are seeing things from one viewpoint like many of us do. I have looked at your point of view many a time. I believe science and Christianity can coexist peacefully.

You and I still have much to learn and discover in this life.

I'd be interested in miracles, IF they were verifiable and there were evidence for them instead of just testimonies, which can represent a person's honest misinterpretations of what happened.
I've had a couple of near death experiences and out of body experiences, I understand how incredibly realistic and convincing they are of a spiritual dimension, it IS just like that. But I'm convinced the brain can just do these things, generate these experiences, since we can induce them by tricking the brain or electrically stimulating it.

Okay let me think if I have any good questions...
Do you believe that belief in Jesus is necessary to avoid hell?

 

[HappyLuke]

That requires faith does it not? Unless you were there what makes humanity and modern science which has changed so much over the years yield fruitful evidence? We once believed the Earth to be flat. We are just now barely beginning to touch the surface in science and technology. Therefore, can we really believe it? As our knowledge and information expands, science changes.

That just means that we shouldn't claim to know it to absolute certainty, we can certainly establish it to reasonable, everyday certainty, like we can be reasonably certain the moon exists but not 100% because we might learn we are in the matrix or a dream or something.
We should always be open to changing our minds should new evidence arise, so science never proclaims absolute certainty, but it can sure establish things to very confident levels of certainty.

The really cool thing about the universe on a large scale is the finite speed of light - we can see backwards into time, so the big bang isn't really 'in the past' and gone and hidden, we can see it by looking 14 billion light years away with our best telescopes

 

[HappyLuke]

Is the 'complete confidence in something' you used in the definition of faith representing 'absolute certainty', 100% belief, the impression of infallible knowledge? The kind of certainty science never claims for anything, because we are always open to future evidence?

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

I'd be interested in miracles, IF they were verifiable and there were evidence for them instead of just testimonies, which can represent a person's honest misinterpretations of what happened.
I've had a couple of near death experiences and out of body experiences, I understand how incredibly realistic and convincing they are of a spiritual dimension, it IS just like that. But I'm convinced the brain can just do these things, generate these experiences, since we can induce them by tricking the brain or electrically stimulating it.

Okay let me think if I have any good questions...
Do you believe that belief in Jesus is necessary to avoid hell?

Why out of all the species on Earth do humans seek a God? Why do we long for meaning? Why would our minds even be capable of creating such images if there was no purpose behind it? Do we just want an imaginary friend or is it deeper than that?

And yes, I believe Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I cannot say who is going to hell. But I know that if Jesus performed the miracles he did, and he had many credible witnesses outside His disciples, AND the disciples died a terrible death for their beliefs (which I'm sure no one would do unless they TRULY believed in it) and not just some looney toon, than we are meant to follow Him.

I heard the true story of a man who had never heard of Jesus before because of where he lived. One day a man with a cross went through his town and the man said "I saw that in my dream! A man on it told me to follow him!" and the Christian carrying the cross told him about Jesus and the man became a Christian that day.

That just means that we shouldn't claim to know it to absolute certainty, we can certainly establish it to reasonable, everyday certainty, like we can be reasonably certain the moon exists but not 100% because we might learn we are in the matrix or a dream or something.
We should always be open to changing our minds should new evidence arise, so science never proclaims absolute certainty, but it can sure establish things to very confident levels of certainty.

The really cool thing about the universe on a large scale is the finite speed of light - we can see backwards into time, so the big bang isn't really 'in the past' and gone and hidden, we can see it by looking 14 billion light years away with our best telescopes

Yes the universe and science IS quite amazing. I just believe nothing comes from nothing.

 

[Charlamane]

I wasn't trying to take your faith away, just giving you the option to choose to have faith or not. Before, coincidences were a mystery to you and you had to assume it was God every time, I'm just giving you the ability to see that even amazing coincidences are statistically expected things in case you choose to take a sceptical approach. I understand it makes you happy and you choose to believe on faith, that's absolutely fine. I really wasn't trying to shake your faith, just showing you the sceptical path, should you choose to care about if your beliefs are properly justified by evidence.
I actually feel a moral duty to do that, because many people are born submerged in a religious, faith-promoting culture yet consider themselves to be scientifically, sceptically minded people that care about the truth. I feel a duty to offer them a helping hand out of the faith-trap; should they choose it.
I'd never force them to reject faith! (I don't think that's possible anyway, if someone doesn't care if their beliefs are justified by reason, you probably couldn't reason with them to change their beliefs).

I was one of those that was "born submerged in a religious, faith-promoting culture yet consider themselves to be scientifically, sceptically minded people that care about the truth." And I'm a stronger Christian when it comes to faith than I've ever been. And that's after I took a large number of science courses in a secular university. Those courses only served to strengthen my faith. My faith has been justified through reason, though even without reason, it would have been justified by my personal relationship with God. Science constantly changes, if you haven't noticed, or the theories do, because new evidence is always being found that alters former beliefs. I'm old enough to have seen that happen repeatedly just in the course of my lifetime. Should I believe what science has determined today to be true, or should I wait 20 years and believe what they say then? Or should I wait even longer? God; however, never changes, and I will always have my relationship with God, which ultimately justifies my faith. You assume people with faith never study, never question, never learn about modern science, history, etc. And you could not be more wrong. If this is your only argument, you definitely need a new one.

 

[Nuns_n_roses]

Is the 'complete confidence in something' you used in the definition of faith representing 'absolute certainty', 100% belief, the impression of infallible knowledge? The kind of certainty science never claims for anything, because we are always open to future evidence?

Faith means things don't have to have 100% assurance on something, but you believe it. You have faith in science, which is ever changing.