Prayer of Renunciation

[danschance]

That's the problem.
First hand evidence is driving what is believed, taught and practiced.

This is what we call traditions of men.

I strongly disagree. This is evidence from those in the trenches. They are fighting demons and healing wounds. Your comments fly in the face of reason. Its like saying doctors are following the traditions of men and not scripture. It is an over simplification of a much more complected issue to say that Therapon or anyone else in deliverance is simply devising their own theology.

You will not find any deliverance minister/therapist or what ever title you ascribe to them agree with your position. I have read a few books on the subject and I have been to several deliverance ministries and not one agrees with you. Where is the harm in getting a person to confess their sin and get right with God? This is in essence what a deliverance minister does. They do not sit around twisting the scriptures nor invent vain traditions to follow for no reason.

I get the feeling that you have no idea what deliverance is and how it works.

 

[Brother_Don]

For the few that appreciate your thread it's well worth it Therapon. If you would teach to a thousand and only one receive, it would be worth it. Keep on sharing, God and Christ Jesus see your heart. It saddens me to see the ridicule, but some day we will be in a place that things like this won't be happening, we will all be one big happy family.

 

[1still_waters]

I strongly disagree. This is evidence from those in the trenches. They are fighting demons and healing wounds. Your comments fly in the face of reason. Its like saying doctors are following the traditions of men and not scripture. It is an over simplification of a much more complected issue to say that Therapon or anyone else in deliverance is simply devising their own theology.

You will not find any deliverance minister/therapist or what ever title you ascribe to them agree with your position. I have read a few books on the subject and I have been to several deliverance ministries and not one agrees with you. Where is the harm in getting a person to confess their sin and get right with God? This is in essence what a deliverance minister does. They do not sit around twisting the scriptures nor invent vain traditions to follow for no reason.

I get the feeling that you have no idea what deliverance is and how it works.

roman Catholics say the same things to support purgatory and such.


Personal experience doesn't trump Bible.

 

[1still_waters]

I get the feeling that you have no idea what deliverance is and how it works.

sure I do.

Colossians 1 13



13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,

 

[1still_waters]

I know you believe that, but with all due respect, out in the real world, it just isn't so.

Beth’s was not an isolated case. In fact, how I learned to help demonized Christians was through a marvelous books about freedom from demonic influence by the internationally recognized conservative theologian, Dr. Neil T. Anderson of Biola University. His book, “The Bondage Breaker,” has led literally thousands of oppressed Christians to freedom in Christ. In “Bondage Breaker” (over a million copies sold) and his follow-up book, “Released From Bondage,” are dozens of account of demonized Christians led to freedom, including an almost identical case of demonic deception through the counterfeit gift of "tongues." In fact, it was by reading this account in “The Bondage Breaker” that I was able to advise Beth on how to deal with the evil spirit within Rachel.

Though paraphrased, the incident below is recorded in: Dr. Neil T. Anderson, The Bondage Breaker, (Eugene, OR, Harvest House, 1990) pp159-160.

After a lengthy discussion about false prophets and teachers, Robert admitted, "I think my problems began when I failed to test the 'gifts' of tongues and prophecy conferred on me by false teachers. Not only was I deceived, but I have deceived others myself."

"Would you be willing to put your gift of tongues to the test?" Anderson asked. He assured Robert that he was interested in putting the spirit to the test, not Robert. Wanting to be free of deception and right with God, Robert said "Yes."

Anderson instructed Robert to begin praying aloud in his "spiritual language." As he began to chant an unintelligible prayer, Anderson said, "In the name of Christ, and in obedience to God's Word, I command you, spirit, to identify yourself." Alvin stopped in the middle of his chanting and said, "I am he."

At this point a novice may have been tempted to take off his shoes, thinking he was on holy ground. But Anderson continued the test: "Are you the 'he' who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, buried, raised on the third day, and who now sits at the right hand of the Father?"

Robert almost shouted the response: "No! Not he!" Anderson led Robert through a prayer renouncing Satan's activity in his life, and he was freed from that spirit.

nice traditions of men there.

Lotsa personal experience.

No bible.

 

[1still_waters]

LOL, testing false prophets in not what that verse commands. That's not what it says. It says we are to test the spirits. False prophets are the result of listening to false spirits, not the other way around.

That makes no sense.

You said the above of this verse...

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

You're trying to say there is a difference between testing a false prophet and testing the spirit of a false prophet.

You're trying to say that since we test spirits, therefore believers can be BOUND/DEMONIZED by spirits.

Believers are not false prophets.
Believers are NOT bound by demons.

You can't go from...

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

too.....

Therefore believers can be bound/demonized by demons.

 

[1still_waters]

Here is what gets me. You most likely believe we're in the last days where apostasy, deception, counterfeit signs and wonders, and the like, will run rampant.

Yet all you can give me for proof for your interactions with demons is all this "personal" experience stuff.
So in a time where you believe deception and false signs are running rampant, you can't provide solid Biblical proof for all the interacting with demons that you're doing?


Therapon has said there is a salvation possible without recognizing Jesus.

I had to conclude that it was possible for Jews during the Christian era to be saved without recognizing Yeshua as Messiah.

Link-->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...el-out-chronological-order-13.html#post962441

So we have a guy who suggests there is a way to salvation without recognizing Jesus, who is also teaching how to interact with demons with little to no Biblical support for his practices. But who basis most off of personal experience

This is concerning stuff folks.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now let me asl you a question. Do you believe that all the demons Jesus cast out in the New Testament were only in unsaved unbelievers? I suspecrt you do so prove it scripturally.

was the permanent indwelling of the HS in effect then? And were these true believers evenm before these demons were cast out?

 

[1still_waters]

was the permanent indwelling of the HS in effect then? And were these true believers evenm before these demons were cast out?

Exactly!
It's not even based on post resurrection, post pentecost circumstances.

The post resurrection, post pentecost folks were wayyyyyyyy different.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly!
It's not even based on post resurrection, post pentecost circumstances.

The post resurrection, post pentecost folks were wayyyyyyyy different.

yes they were. And they were given something that had NEVER been given to any man before, save John the baptist. Who did not even do any miracles that are recorded.. yet we are told he was filled with the spirit from birth.

You can't take what happened pre-pentecost, and use that to determine what happens post. it does not work!

 

[zone]

Because 1 John 4
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

So we can test for false prophets.
False prophets are not believers.
Believers are not false prophets.
False prophets have demons.

[video=youtube;M-aSjHnbw18]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-aSjHnbw18[/video]

A B C , Its easy as
1 2 3 , as simple as
do re mi, A B C, 1 2 3

 

[1Christianwarrior316]

of course you're not my brother.

1John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1John 4:11 Beloved, if God so love us, we ought also to love one another.

1John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God who he hath not seen?
1John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1Christianwarrior316

 

[zone]

deliverance ministries

what's a deliverance ministry?

 

[zone]

You can't go from...


to...

sure ya can.
that's how it's done.

<insert abiding's pic>

 

[zone]

1John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

1John 4:11 Beloved, if God so love us, we ought also to love one another.

1John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God who he hath not seen?
1John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1Christianwarrior316

i said not.
not my christian brother.

said nothing about hate or any of that.

i don't have any false prophet/teacher brothers.

 

[doulos]

i said not.
not my christian brother.

said nothing about hate or any of that.

i don't have any false prophet/teacher brothers.

You don't? Then who has you duped into standing against the Jews God given right to the land of Israel? Wasn't God's covenant with Israel an everlasting covenant?
Oh that's right you don't believe it was everlasting, do you?

God told Daniel, "These words are sealed and concealed until the time of the end."

the end of the Old Covenant.
the end of captivity.
the end of the transgression.

the time when JESUS of Nazareth fulfilled ALL that was written in the Law & The Prophets < Daniel included!

If the everlasting covenant ended in the first century as your statement implies, then how can it be everlasting? Sorry Zone God said everlasting, not just until the first advent of Christ.

 

[1still_waters]

You don't? Then who has you duped into standing against the Jews God given right to the land of Israel? Wasn't God's covenant with Israel an everlasting covenant?
Oh that's right you don't believe it was everlasting, do you?



If the everlasting covenant ended in the first century as your statement implies, then how can it be everlasting? Sorry Zone God said everlasting, not just until the first advent of Christ.

You do realize replies like this are what is keeping the COPY and PASTE keyboard and mouse key industry in business?

 

[doulos]

You do realize replies like this are what is keeping the COPY and PASTE keyboard and mouse key industry in business?

If that is the case they should be making a fortune considering the walls of wiki that some on this forum cut and paste to support their wiki theology. Guess I should by stock in those industries.

 

[cfultz3]

Ellis,

I read your book "The Shinning Man". In each of the cases you spoke about, each person (core personality) came to Jesus only after they were freed from the "darkones (demons)". From my understanding of Scriptures, it is not at all possible (double negative) for a child of God who has the indwelling of the Spirit to also be possessed (owned) by a demon. It would seem that people who are possessed (owned) by demons are those who are not owned by God and visa versa.

But, on the other hand, if you are talking about how a child of God can be spiritually influenced by demons (tempted) and thus the necessity of the Spirit having written to us the need to test every spirit, then I am on board with you. It is Scriptural to say that even believers can be led astray by seducing spirits and thus, the need of exhorting His children to stay on the straight and narrow path and not to fall into fulfilling temptation. And if that child continues to be led astray contrary to the Spirit, to the point where that child is following another spirit besides the Spirit of God, then it can be said that the child has returned to his darkness he was delivered from and his lord (the one who possesses) is the one he is following. But, in either case, the possession was by one owner (either by "darkones (demons)" or the "shinning Man (Jesus)"). This is understood in Scripture where it talks about not being able to have two masters (one will be loved and the other will be hated).

As to those who have MPD (multiple personalities disorder), you mentioned/implied, if I remember correctly, that it is a safeguard from God that one is able to split their personality for self-perseverance. I won't pretend like I know what I am talking about here, as oppose to your years of experience in dealing with "alters", but then again, I am led back to Scripture which states that a child of God is His temple He indwells. Again, I must mention that in every example you gave, each was led to Christ only after a cleansing. I will agree with you here that MPD is oftentimes spiritual and must be dealt with spiritually and not by medications. I must commend you on your work in Christ in bringing those MPDers to the Light.


I guess it all broils down to either saying "possessed" or "influenced". Perhaps, there is a misunderstanding on my part in how you define "possess"? To me, "possess" means "own", as oppose to "influence", which means "to sway with temptation to walk off the straight and narrow path". I am again led to Scripture which states that the light of our eyes is to be single and if that light is dark, how great is that darkness. Perhaps, you would agree that the Light cannot be found in the darkness, but that the "Living Water" dispels the darkness, inasmuch as It did in the examples found in your book?

 

[zone]

You don't? Then who has you duped into standing against the Jews God given right to the land of Israel? Wasn't God's covenant with Israel an everlasting covenant?
Oh that's right you don't believe it was everlasting, do you?

If the everlasting covenant ended in the first century as your statement implies, then how can it be everlasting? Sorry Zone God said everlasting, not just until the first advent of Christ.

LAND?
that's your Gospel?

JEWS are - Preserved unto Salvation precisely BY NOT receiving the New Wine of the New Covenant?

and given LAND at the same time.

this is your everlasting 'covenant'.

~

no, i have no false teacher false gospel brothers.

that would include you, at this time.
of course you might repent.

pack up your golden calf and we will look it over.
every square inch of it.
please be prepared as we won't be playing words games

Dual-covenant theology is a Christian view of the Old Covenant which holds that Jews may simply keep the Law of Moses, because of the "everlasting covenant" (Genesis 17:13) between Abraham and God expressed in the Hebrew Bible, whereas Gentiles (those not Jews or Jewish proselytes) must convert to Christianity or alternatively accept the Seven Laws of Noah to be assured of a place in the World to Come.



wiki's easy.
but we'll go to Talmud tomorrow.
any issues with that?