Pray that I learn convincing evidence

[wind]

hello luke,

i have been following your thread with some curiosity bc, i too, struggle with questions of faith. it has been helpful to see you express ideas that i have only partially formed and for which i havent the words or organization in place yet when i see it i can say, "yes, that is the question," or "i have been hounded by that thought as well."

i wish you luck

 

[skymetal777]

Hello HappyLuke, a fellow Aussie! G'day mate! haha, you want to know how I know God exists to me? ( It's a bit of a story so please read this ) I had interests in the Satanic cults, witchcraft , power , greed , the chicks ( I think I made my point clear ) anyways, I heard that the devil can reward you with your desires if you exchange your soul, or try to make a pact with him.

Now, I was also into these dark Satanic black metal bands ( I felt dark energies come by me when I listen to them, I become nasty just unlike me, and felt so aggressive towards my mum and my dad ). I went to bed one night, rested my heard on the pillow and closed my eyes... Eventually after counting sheep I fell asleep! But it's what I dream't that really worried me, a frightening experience indeed... I'm not sure if you're familiar with the founder of the Satanic Church organization '' anton szandor lavey '' but he was in my dream.

It was a dark atmosphere, pitch black.. A void and a floating head appeared, grinning with a devilish grin at me just floating in mid-air. I woke up really scared, I prayed to Jesus and I was at peace I felt love and comfort at that moment!

That is how I know that God exists, it was a message conveyed to me by God.

 

[stevef]

It also fills my heart with joy to be a deeply caring person But I choose to be loving and care because that's the kind of life I want to live and the kind of world I want to live in, where everyone works to minimize all suffering and promote the well being of others. I get to the same ends but by a slightly different motivation, I don't do it because Christ taught it's good, but because it's good

Maybe you're closer to Christ than you realize. Before I made some needed changes in my life as a follower of Christ I used to get enjoyment out of exacting revenge, and hurting those that hurt me, sort of an eye for an eye mentality, which is pretty much taught by society and a lot of religions. It sounds like it has come more naturally to you, but for me I have to remind myself what Christ taught and make a conscious effort to follow him, especially when it comes to loving and forgiving those that hurt me in some way. Another thing that may or may not make sense to you, but does to me, is that when I see so much suffering and evil in the world, it's more than I can handle to not believe that there is a just and loving God that will make all things right and just in the end.

 

[believerwhoisnotworthy]

Happyluke many years ago when I was studying theology I read a book titled Evidence of Our Faith.....I like you at that time was seeking scientific evidence of the existence of God. The word science itself is the systematic study and recording of facts...the fact that there is order to the world .....that is to say when you drop a rock gravity takes it down in the same pattern over and over and it never rises but falls....the fact when you put bow and arrow together and the arrow flies to the target proves that there is order to the world and such could never happen by random bang theory as the random bang theory would leave to more random bangs and thus lack of order .....the whole theory of science is based upon consistence of the study and recording of repetitive events........plan by design of an omnipotent power, God. Go out the door and look at a passing cat or dog ......there is a hiearchy of order in the world ....if you are seeking evidence of God may you open your mind and find him now

 

[stevef]

Hihi!
I understand you don't want a debate, I'll just make a few minor points
-Evolution isn't random accident, it's no accident that wolves will evolve to grow longer fur in the on setting of an ice age, for example
-Gravity is an interesting kind of anti-entropy force, bringing together the chaotic, simple remnants of the big bang (interstellar clouds that have even settled to thermodynamic equilibrium- maximum simplicity) into stars and planets and all the complex chemical systems therein

If I didn't understand the processes of gravitational collapse and evolution to produce complexity from simplicity, I would be just as shocked to see the complexity of the real world as you think atheists should be

Yes science continues to find out more about the wonderous and complex processes of our universe, but why would that change my belief that there is a power beyond our comprehension that we call the creator? In my limited concept of the world, something had to create all of this, or start and guide the process, so there has to be something else out there in a dimension above and beyond my understanding. Much of creation may have been done thru evolution, but that doesn't mean there wasn't and isn't an intelligent creator guiding the whole process. It makes much more sense to me that there is. How does it just happen that butterflies fly thousands of miles back to a certain tree without ever having been there, or a salmon can swim thousands of miles of ocean and find its way back to the exact stream it was born in to spawn. I know that science finds out more and more answers to these questions, but when it does I'm even more amazed at the intelligence and power of the great creator we call God, and the amazing instincts he has provided all creatures to help them survive. Even if it happened thru evolution I'm in awe of it.

 

[HappyLuke]

Hello HappyLuke, a fellow Aussie! G'day mate! haha, you want to know how I know God exists to me? ( It's a bit of a story so please read this ) I had interests in the Satanic cults, witchcraft , power , greed , the chicks ( I think I made my point clear ) anyways, I heard that the devil can reward you with your desires if you exchange your soul, or try to make a pact with him.

Now, I was also into these dark Satanic black metal bands ( I felt dark energies come by me when I listen to them, I become nasty just unlike me, and felt so aggressive towards my mum and my dad ). I went to bed one night, rested my heard on the pillow and closed my eyes... Eventually after counting sheep I fell asleep! But it's what I dream't that really worried me, a frightening experience indeed... I'm not sure if you're familiar with the founder of the Satanic Church organization '' anton szandor lavey '' but he was in my dream.

It was a dark atmosphere, pitch black.. A void and a floating head appeared, grinning with a devilish grin at me just floating in mid-air. I woke up really scared, I prayed to Jesus and I was at peace I felt love and comfort at that moment!

That is how I know that God exists, it was a message conveyed to me by God.

But we often dream about things we are into, I've been having dreams about my interests and hobbies, couldn't that dream have been the natural result of your brain dreaming about these things? How come you're so certain it was a message from God instead of a natural dream?
p.s. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd heard that Leveyan Satanism isn't really a worship of satan and magical powers at all, rather it's a poorly named kind of self-worshipping philosophy, that is inherently atheistic - is that right? Just some strange philosophy that teaches you to embrace your hate for your enemies and stuff?

 

[HappyLuke]

Maybe you're closer to Christ than you realize. Before I made some needed changes in my life as a follower of Christ I used to get enjoyment out of exacting revenge, and hurting those that hurt me, sort of an eye for an eye mentality, which is pretty much taught by society and a lot of religions. It sounds like it has come more naturally to you, but for me I have to remind myself what Christ taught and make a conscious effort to follow him, especially when it comes to loving and forgiving those that hurt me in some way. Another thing that may or may not make sense to you, but does to me, is that when I see so much suffering and evil in the world, it's more than I can handle to not believe that there is a just and loving God that will make all things right and just in the end.

Yep I was raised by pretty awesome parents, a very cultured and travelled hippy mother, and a very logical and moral science nerd From a very young age I've been closely aware of my experience of sympathy, and always would try and protect insects from getting hurt and stuff
I found your last sentence fascinating, it kind of works the other way for me. I see so much suffering and evil in the world and I think it makes it unlikely that a just and loving God exists and is constantly watching out for us and controlling things.

 

[HappyLuke]

when you drop a rock gravity takes it down in the same pattern over and over and it never rises but falls....the fact when you put bow and arrow together and the arrow flies to the target proves that there is order to the world and such could never happen by random bang theory as the random bang theory would leave to more random bangs and thus lack of order .....

Hullooo
Gravity is an interesting kind of anti-entropy, creating complexity and order where there was extreme simplicity. You can have interstellar clouds that have settled to thermodynamic equilibrium (complete simplicity) collapse under gravity to form stars and planets and all the complex chemical systems therein
If all of matter were a perfectly uniform gas, the gravity from any direction on a particle would be the same, and it wouldn't collapse into stars, it would stay a simple, uniform gas.
The only difference between that completely ultimately simple universe, that we wouldn't say needs a designer, and the universe we currently observe now, filled with stars and planets, is that our universe had tiny fluctuations and imperfections in the uniformity of the early universe Instead of a perfectly smooth gas, we had a fuzz with slight variations
That's how complexity comes from simplicity, but you were saying the existence of repeatability demands an omnipotent designer - hmmmm I don't really think it's possible for a universe to exist that doesn't behave in rationally understandable manners. Also, the God hypothesis you are suggesting to explain order in this universe, also exists with unexplained order, so I don't feel it explains anything. Like... God deciding to create the universe, or successfully doing anything, is just like us putting an arrow into a bow and letting it fly.
I think whether a creator God exists or not, there has to be this repeatability to nature, it's impossible to break the logical absolutes (by their definition, they are tautologies)

 

[HappyLuke]

Yes science continues to find out more about the wonderous and complex processes of our universe, but why would that change my belief that there is a power beyond our comprehension that we call the creator? In my limited concept of the world, something had to create all of this, or start and guide the process, so there has to be something else out there in a dimension above and beyond my understanding. Much of creation may have been done thru evolution, but that doesn't mean there wasn't and isn't an intelligent creator guiding the whole process. It makes much more sense to me that there is. How does it just happen that butterflies fly thousands of miles back to a certain tree without ever having been there, or a salmon can swim thousands of miles of ocean and find its way back to the exact stream it was born in to spawn. I know that science finds out more and more answers to these questions, but when it does I'm even more amazed at the intelligence and power of the great creator we call God, and the amazing instincts he has provided all creatures to help them survive. Even if it happened thru evolution I'm in awe of it.

Ya I totally agree that discovering natural explanations for things (and the fact that every mystery solved so far has turned out to be a natural mechanism) doesn't prove there isn't a God involved in some background way
But I don't yet see why you think the something that created all this, in a dimension above and beyond our understanding, is necessarily intelligent.

 

[skymetal777]

I didn't quite elaborate, The floating head in the dark atmosphere was The head of Anton Lavey, I was practising Spiritual Satanism, and that basically is the worshipping of demons and Satan.

That's really your opinion about what you believed that I dreamt up, but I knew for certain that it was a message by God conveyed to me, I haven't had a similar dream like that ever since after I prayed to the Lord. And yes also, Laveyn Satanism is basically worshipping yourself and does have atheistic beliefs.

I am sure that this is a message from God, 100% sure. It's really up to you if you think I'm crazy or not, but this is my testimony of how I came crawling back to God

 

[Theophane]

I'm a scientifically minded sceptic, unable to believe Christianity on faith without understanding reasons to think it's true, without being convinced by evidence. Believers who think belief in Jesus is necessary for me to avoid hell, please pray for God to reveal himself to me in a way I'll understand and be convinced by, to save my soul

There's your problem! No amount of scientific evidence will cure you of your unbelief.

 

[HEIsRiSen]

Instead of trying to convince you myself I will pray for, as you asked, that God reveals himself to you.

 

[HappyLuke]

There's your problem! No amount of scientific evidence will cure you of your unbelief.

How can you say that when there's no scientific evidence to show me
That's the sort of thing you can say to someone who doesn't believe in the sun after you've spent a week teaching him solar science. Not to someone who doesn't believe in a religion because nobody has shown him any reason to think it's true.

 

[HappyLuke]

Instead of trying to convince you myself I will pray for, as you asked, that God reveals himself to you.

Thanks
I hope it works I'll join you and do some thinking to God right now

 

[HappyLuke]

There's your problem! No amount of scientific evidence will cure you of your unbelief.

Cannot God reveal himself in scientifically valid ways? As if you really think an omnipotent being can't reveal himself convincingly to scientifically minded people!

 

[moretalman]

If you go to God with an honest heart & say "OK God if your real make your self known to me" he will respond. If God dosen't respond to you, then on judgment day you'll be able to tell God "God I ask you to reveal yourself to me & I never heard back from you. Then you'll be free & clear.
The reason I'm so convinced of this is God is just. It would be unjust of God not to reveal himself to you if you made this honest appeal. You will have to leave it up to God just how he will go about manifesting himself to you. After all He did create the universe & he knows exactly what it will take to bring you to faith in himself. What your really doing when you do this is: Trusting God. And that's what faith is all about. Leave the who, what, where, why & when to him. I'm out of time, start with this & see where it leads you. God loves you & wants you to take your place by His side as his son, who other than him would be more able to unfold to you the mysteries of the universe. many blessings <> Johnny

John 17:3 Life eternal is this to know the only true God & Jesus Christ who he has sent.

 

[HappyLuke]

If you go to God with an honest heart & say "OK God if your real make your self known to me" he will respond. If God dosen't respond to you, then on judgment day you'll be able to tell God "God I ask you to reveal yourself to me & I never heard back from you. Then you'll be free & clear.
The reason I'm so convinced of this is God is just. It would be unjust of God not to reveal himself to you if you made this honest appeal. You will have to leave it up to God just how he will go about manifesting himself to you. After all He did create the universe & he knows exactly what it will take to bring you to faith in himself. What your really doing when you do this is: Trusting God. And that's what faith is all about. Leave the who, what, where, why & when to him. I'm out of time, start with this & see where it leads you. God loves you & wants you to take your place by His side as his son, who other than him would be more able to unfold to you the mysteries of the universe. many blessings <> Johnny

John 17:3 Life eternal is this to know the only true God & Jesus Christ who he has sent.

Nice! I like your interpretation, it's much more moral than many of the Christian's beliefs I encounter, who say I'll go to hell if I die without succeeding in getting him to contact me.
Yep, I ask it with an honest heart quite often and haven't gotten anything yet. I'll keep trying though
And again, I'm impressed with your exceptionally morally reasonable interpretation
Most people sense the unfairness you are describing but are convinced the texts speak too specifically about it so they just tell themselves it must be moral somehow - often by telling themselves all us who haven't been contacted are people who would choose to rebel anyway, if God had contacted us. Silly excuses like that I wouldn't rebel and choose to go to hell, of course not.

I know a joke about this topic actually
The isolated jungle man said to the Christian missionary
"If I didn't know the truth about hell, Jesus, and the bible and all that... would I go to hell?"
And the missionary thought for a moment and replied reassuringly, with a smile
"No, not if you didn't know about it"
So the jungle man said "Then why did you tell me about it?"

Many people think everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus will go to hell, and many people think that people who never got the chance to hear about Jesus, like isolated jungle men, get a free pass to heaven without Jesus, if they are kindhearted.
This creates a silly situation where very unconvincing missionaries are going through the jungle damning everyone they meet to hell
Really, as you adapted the belief in God thing to be moral, it's clear to me that the moral answer is that anybody who hasn't heard *convincingly* about Jesus's offer gets the free ticket to heaven if they are kindhearted. One is still innocent of rejecting the offer of salvation if one has only heard about the bible from unconvincing sources.

 

[Theophane]

How can you say that when there's no scientific evidence to show me
That's the sort of thing you can say to someone who doesn't believe in the sun after you've spent a week teaching him solar science. Not to someone who doesn't believe in a religion because nobody has shown him any reason to think it's true.

No amount.
Of scientific evidence.
Will cure you.
Of your unbelief.

 

[HappyLuke]

No amount.
Of scientific evidence.
Will cure you.
Of your unbelief.

Can you.
Back that.
Claim up.
With evidence or reasoning?

Do you have any other supernatural event that has been scientifically proven (to scientific standards, not faith standards) that I don't accept, to show that I'm mentally able to not believe things regardless of the evidence?
You'd have to have an unlimited amount of clear evidence that you've presented me to make such a claim, and you've presented none.
Again, that's the sort of claim you can make AFTER you have presented me with lots of good evidence, not before you've presented any.

I have ten bunkers filled with hundreds of tonnes of gold, guarded by a small army.
You don't believe me on my word, on faith?
Well that proves that you wouldn't believe even if I took you on a tour around the bunkers, showed you legal documents that I own it, and let you do chemical tests that demonstrate if it's really gold or not.
Rational claim?

 

[HappyLuke]

I'd go so far as to say it's impossible for someone to understand convincing evidence and not believe.
No matter what I want to believe, if someone can make me aware of valid reasons to believe a claim, I have to believe it.
That's the nature of a rational mind. Perhaps you are projecting your own unreasonably stead-fast position onto me? Would any amount of scientific evidence cure you of your belief?

It's just impossible for me to understand a valid argument for God and not believe in God.
Formal arguments are build as syllogisms - starting from premise evidence, and working down logical deductions until a conclusion. If you can demonstrate to me that your evidence exists, and your deductions are logically valid, I'm unable to not believe your conclusion.
Mentally, unable. It's impossible.

I have a lamp
All lamps give off light when switched on and working
My lamp gives off light when switched on and working

If I can provide convincing evidence that I have a lamp, and that working lamps necessarily give off light when switched on, you are unable to believe anything other than that my lamp gives off light when switched on.