Prayer of Renunciation

[danschance]

Oh, and thanks for throwing gasoline on the fire.

 

[Stephen63]

Matthew 6:24 [SUP]24 [/SUP]No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

While this Scripture is not directly related to demon possession, it does explain plainly that no man could have two masters. Anyone who is demon possessed has a demon for his master. The individual cannot control it. It controls him. To say that someone can be saved and demon possessed the same time is absolutely ludicrous. While I do not doubt that some of you have met people with problems like this, just because they tell you they're saved doesn't mean they are.
Several years ago in my church there were two sisters who were in our youth group. Both of them claim to be saved. Both of them went to the altar during prayer time. They both were involved in the worship service. They seem to be good moral people. Yet they were both demon possessed. I know this because one of them had demons cast out of her. She remained delivered for while. But because she did not remain faithful to God, the last result was worse than the first. She left her husband and son for another woman. She has been a homosexual ever since.

 

[Stephen63]

Romans 6:12-18 [SUP]12 [/SUP]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. [SUP]14[/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. [SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Anyone bound by a demon will sin uncontrollably as the demon wills. The true born-again believer is free from sin; sin or the author of sin has no absolute control.

 

[Stephen63]

John 19:11 [SUP]11 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Anyone who believes a Christian can be demon possessed is also implying that God allows such.

Romans 8:31-39 [SUP]31 [/SUP]What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [SUP]32 [/SUP]He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? [SUP]33 [/SUP]Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [SUP]36 [/SUP]As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. [SUP]37 [/SUP]Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[danschance]

Matthew 6:24 [SUP]24 [/SUP]No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

While this Scripture is not directly related to demon possession, it does explain plainly that no man could have two masters. Anyone who is demon possessed has a demon for his master. The individual cannot control it. It controls him. To say that someone can be saved and demon possessed the same time is absolutely ludicrous. While I do not doubt that some of you have met people with problems like this, just because they tell you they're saved doesn't mean they are.
Several years ago in my church there were two sisters who were in our youth group. Both of them claim to be saved. Both of them went to the altar during prayer time. They both were involved in the worship service. They seem to be good moral people. Yet they were both demon possessed. I know this because one of them had demons cast out of her. She remained delivered for while. But because she did not remain faithful to God, the last result was worse than the first. She left her husband and son for another woman. She has been a homosexual ever since.

I beg to differ Brother

The scripture you posted is about divided loyalties between God and one's own personal idols. Although it is an interesting hypothesis. Demons certainly can be worshiped and are by some. Also you mention that one is under total control of a demon if he/she has one. This is not the case. God gave us a free will and no demon can take it from us. As I mentioned in another post, demons have specific areas of influence over a person. For example if a person has a demon named depression, one can be certain that this demon is attempting make the person depressed and probably trying to get more of his buddies into that person. So how much influence or control a demon has over a person is a matter of degree to which the person is demonized. Demon possession is a sin related condition.

Stephen63 said: "They seem to be good moral people. Yet they were both demon possessed. I know this because one of them had demons cast out of her. She remained delivered for while. But because she did not remain faithful to God, the last result was worse than the first. She left her husband and son for another woman. She has been a homosexual ever since."

In the above quote, you make my point. Here was a woman who by all standards she was serving the Lord and had a demon. It is a sad story indeed when one walks away from Jesus, but it is their choice. Some seeds fall upon the rocky soil.

I have seen perfectly normal people who acted and lived normal lives and even were believers, have a demon. On the other end of the spectrum, I have seen a person come out of the occult and was unable to speak the name of Jesus. Demon possession is not as Hollywood portrays and regrettably, there is a great amount of disinformation about it, especially with in the church.

Most of the disinformation comes from Christian leaders (theologians, apologists and clergy) who have never once encountered a demon and yet they pontificate all sorts of false dogma about it, as if they are experts on the matter. I call it hubris.

 

[danschance]

So many people ignore her now, if you notice she is increasingly quoting her own posts, and engaging in conversation with herself. I said goodbye when I saw how casually she falsely accuses and falsely characterizes (let alone that besides her unchristian predatory behavior, she also generally quotes something, and then rather than reply to the content instead goes on to harangue on in accusation against persons). I don't view the following as a suggestion or a recommendation, but an instruction:

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

When someone casually engages in the described behavior I turn away.

You hit the nail on the head and drove it home. I have placed Zone on ignore. Her libel of me was over the top and out of bounds. I am surprised the moderators allow her to get away with it.

 

[cfultz3]

You hit the nail on the head and drove it home. I have placed Zone on ignore. Her libel of me was over the top and out of bounds. I am surprised the moderators allow her to get away with it.

Life is a lot easier and less stressful now, I suppose?

 

[danschance]

No offense, but at this point it might be best to be silent and move on.

 

[ladylynn]

Over the last few years I've enjoyed reading what the saints of the "olden days" had to say. A little book called "Streams In The Desert" was put out by a lady named Mrs. Charles E. Cowman. This particular reading was about our silent Saviour.

Mark 15:3 "He answered nothing"
"The silent Saviour answering not a word to the men who were maligning Him. He let them say and do their worst, and He stood in THE POWER OF STILLNESS-- God's holy silent Lamb.

"There is a stillness that lets God work for us, and holds our peace; the stillness that ceases from it's contriving and its self-vindication, and it's expedients of wisdom and fore-thought, and lets God provide and answer the cruel blow, in His own unfailing, faithful love.
How often we lose God's interposition by taking up our own cause, and striking for our defense. God give to us this silent power, this conquered spirit..." A. B. Simpson

The day when Jesus stood alone
And felt the hearts of men like stone,
And knew He came but to atone-
That day "He held His peace."

They witnessed falsely to His word,
They bound Him with a cruel cord,
And mockingly proclaimed Him Lord;
"But Jesus held His peace."

They spat upon Him in the face,
they dragged Him on from place to place,
They heaped upon Him all disgrace;
"But Jesus held His peace."

My friend have you for far much less,
With rage, which you call righteousness,
resented slights with great distress?
your Saviour "held His peace"
L. S. P.

Bishop Whipple of Minnesota, known as The Apostle of the Indians, said these words;
"For thirty years I have tried to see the face of Christ in those with whom I differed"

"When this spirit actuates us we shall be preserved at once from a narrow bigotry and an easy-going tolerance, from passionate vindictiveness and everything that would mar or injure our testimony for Him who came not to destroy men's lives, but to save them." W. H. Griffith Thomas

 

[moretalman]

Therapon : You never tried to see into the spiritual world? Not ever. Scripture forbids it?

Gaining spiritual insight is forbidden? Jesus said if you continue in my word you shall be my disciples indeed & you shall know the truth & the truth shall make you free. Learning the truth about the spiritual realm can make us free. We must gain that insight from God & not attempt to make contact with evil spirits, that is gain knowledge from them, since they are more powerful then humans & would only, could only decieve us. You also said: "I don't have any special spiritual insight and would have fled one like the plague. " Please explain, what is it I'm missing here.

 

[zone]

So many people ignore her now, if you notice she is increasingly quoting her own posts, and engaging in conversation with herself. I said goodbye when I saw how casually she falsely accuses and falsely characterizes (let alone that besides her unchristian predatory behavior, she also generally quotes something, and then rather than reply to the content instead goes on to harangue on in accusation against persons). I don't view the following as a suggestion or a recommendation, but an instruction:

2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

When someone casually engages in the described behavior I turn away.

but Pete we just talked quite a bit today
anyways....i'll keep posting.
you turn away. that sounds good.

 

[Therapon]

Therapon : You never tried to see into the spiritual world? Not ever. Scripture forbids it?

Gaining spiritual insight is forbidden? Jesus said if you continue in my word you shall be my disciples indeed & you shall know the truth & the truth shall make you free. Learning the truth about the spiritual realm can make us free. We must gain that insight from God & not attempt to make contact with evil spirits, that is gain knowledge from them, since they are more powerful then humans & would only, could only decieve us. You also said: "I don't have any special spiritual insight and would have fled one like the plague. " Please explain, what is it I'm missing here.

Brother, we are not on the same page. Of course we want spiritual insight, as the Holy Spirit grants it to us through God's word.

I am talking about actually physically seeing into the spiritual world as do Satanists, occultists and multiples. In fact, the alters inside multiples (not the one outside controlling the body) actually see themselves as living in the spiritual world. I do not see what they see nor should we play around with that kind of astral projection because it is forbidden by Scripture, probably because it opens the door to demonic influence.

 

[GRA]

GRA,

You are a brother whom I respect. I know you are diligent with the scriptures and sincere in your statements. Hats off to you for that.

"I am even sincere in my 'teasing' -- apparently, a little too sincere..." (haha)

1) My bible uses the term possessed to describe a person indwelt by demon(s) and I believe the scriptures back me up on this. I never use the term possession to imply ownership and I will admit the term may not be the best. Oppression is not mentioned in scripture and if a person is Possessed or Oppressed, I fail to see there is any significant difference. Both are in need of deliverance ministry.

'possessed' - according to Strong's G1139: "to be under the power of a demon"

Technically, this does not indicate "indwelt" - but, rather - "controlled" by a demon - presumably, total control (for whatever length of time). Which seems to lead to the question:

"Under what conditions, and in what manner, may a demon take control of a person?"

I would say that 'possessed' is a more active term - and is about controlling what you do - outwardly; whereas, 'oppressed' is a more passive term - and is about putting you into a continual heavy-laden condition - inwardly.

Possession is about bypassing the mind and controlling the body. Oppression is about influencing mind/emotion/spirit. (mental/emotional/spiritual state-of-being)

Possession is direct [exerted] control. Oppression is indirect [pressured] influence.

2)You claim possession is "total control of the person". I strongly disagree. Most demon possessed persons act very normal but often have issues in specific areas. A demon of or named Fear tries to get the person to have a fear issue. The influence of this demon is somewhat limited and only exerts control in this specific area.Any demon can manifest itself and take over a body and speak using the host body.

This is oppression, not possession. This would be considered possession.

3) Alters are amazing and can do amazing things. Psychology views them as masks a person wears to hide painful memories. I feel that is an incompletely view of alters. IMHO, Alters are parts of the mind and spirit of the core person. Also demons will at times pretend to be alters and every alter must be tested to see if it is a human part or demon. I also find it to be very important to evangelize alters and then cast demons out of them or the core person may never find healing. Once an alter becomes saved, the find that they are wearing a white robe from God. God will even interact with them to an extraordinary degree.

I believe that alters are strictly parts of the mind ("by definition").

I believe two scriptures apply to MPD/DID:

a)immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit...crying, and cutting himself with stones.(self harm is a symptom that Alters maybe present.)...My name is Legion: for we are many. ...sitting, ,and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid. (excerpts from Mark 5:1-17

b) And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two [men] possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way Mathew 8:28

In the first scripture we see one man (the core person?) Then we see Legion's conundrum "My name (singular) is Legion, for we (plural) are many. (Sounds exactly what MPD/DID is?) In the second verse we two men (this can be a condition of MPD/DID known as being co-conscious). Lastly we see he is clothed (Jesus gives alters a white robe after the become saved) and in his right mind (God often merges alters, at His discretion). Legion is the one demon always found in people with MPD/DID.

I only mention these verses for you edification because I know you are a detailed person who enjoys studdying the scriptures.

I do not believe that these passages demonstrate any indication of someone possessed by a demon while indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I also do not believe that this was [necessarily] a case of MPD/DID. There are no indications that the man had multiple personalities -- what he had was multiple demons ('devils').

Jesus was not addressing the man whose body was possessed. He was addressing a group (singular) of many demons (plural).

 

[Therapon]

"I am even sincere in my 'teasing' -- apparently, a little too sincere..." (haha)


'possessed' - according to Strong's G1139: "to be under the power of a demon"

Technically, this does not indicate "indwelt" - but, rather - "controlled" by a demon - presumably, total control (for whatever length of time). Which seems to lead to the question:

"Under what conditions, and in what manner, may a demon take control of a person?"

I would say that 'possessed' is a more active term - and is about controlling what you do - outwardly; whereas, 'oppressed' is a more passive term - and is about putting you into a continual heavy-laden condition - inwardly.

Possession is about bypassing the mind and controlling the body. Oppression is about influencing mind/emotion/spirit. (mental/emotional/spiritual state-of-being)

Possession is direct [exerted] control. Oppression is indirect [pressured] influence.


This is oppression, not possession. This would be considered possession.


I believe that alters are strictly parts of the mind ("by definition").



I do not believe that these passages demonstrate any indication of someone possessed by a demon while indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

I also do not believe that this was [necessarily] a case of MPD/DID. There are no indications that the man had multiple personalities -- what he had was multiple demons ('devils').

Jesus was not addressing the man whose body was possessed. He was addressing a group (singular) of many demons (plural).

I don't use the termed "demon posessed" because I do not believe that condition has biblical support. In my opinion, all demonic oppression is demonization, how serious is just a matter of degree. When one allows his mind to be overwhelmed by demonic thoughts, we call that demon posession, I would call it seriously demonized. So the problem to my mind, is more in terminology than in doctrine.

 

[Bistabuster]

Well, I just read this entire post. I'm new here and I'm trying to get to know all of you. I've learned a lot on this one thread. I know therapon is a true Christian. Why do I know this? Based SOLELY on this thread alone, I heard him say countless times he follows the Lord. He also stated multiple times that leading people to the Lord is the most important thing we must do. I also learned that you, Zone and 1stillwaters, didn't even see that point made a dozen of times. Instead, you bashed him. So, let me ask you this. What is more important to you. Leading people to Christ or getting your doctrine in order? I see clearly, especially with zone, that doctrine is far more important than leading the lost to salvation. If you are a true Christian, then act like one. If I came to this site to see if becoming a Christian is for me, from all your posts you wrote, I assure you that being a Christian is not for me. I'd PERSONALLY would say..."SCREW THIS!!!" For me, it would be easier to live without it. Zone, you seriously will drive me AWAY from salvation with an attitude like that!!!! Thank God that I am firmly bonded with Jesus and I have also asked prayers for all like you.

Therapon is absolutely correct. The best thing is to ignore people like you that don't have the correct concept of Bible theology. Some people are indeed UN-teachable! Missionaries don't drag people through the mud. They lift them out of the mud!

 

[Therapon]

Well, I just read this entire post. I'm new here and I'm trying to get to know all of you. I've learned a lot on this one thread. I know therapon is a true Christian. Why do I know this? Based SOLELY on this thread alone, I heard him say countless times he follows the Lord. He also stated multiple times that leading people to the Lord is the most important thing we must do. I also learned that you, Zone and 1stillwaters, didn't even see that point made a dozen of times. Instead, you bashed him. So, let me ask you this. What is more important to you. Leading people to Christ or getting your doctrine in order? I see clearly, especially with zone, that doctrine is far more important than leading the lost to salvation. If you are a true Christian, then act like one. If I came to this site to see if becoming a Christian is for me, from all your posts you wrote, I assure you that being a Christian is not for me. I'd PERSONALLY would say..."SCREW THIS!!!" For me, it would be easier to live without it. Zone, you seriously will drive me AWAY from salvation with an attitude like that!!!! Thank God that I am firmly bonded with Jesus and I have also asked prayers for all like you.

Therapon is absolutely correct. The best thing is to ignore people like you that don't have the correct concept of Bible theology. Some people are indeed UN-teachable! Missionaries don't drag people through the mud. They lift them out of the mud!

Brother, if you think this thread is tough, you might go back and read some of my earlier threads. From the heat I was getting, you'd think I was the worst heretic since the Gnostics. But as one of my elder pastor friends told me, "It isn't a stand for the Lord when others stand with you, it's only a stand for Jesus when you stand alone."

A few brethren on here have a fair bit of scriptural knowledge. Unfortunately, that knowledge is usually clouded by doctrinal bias or the traditions of men. But getting challenged by others tests your stand in Scripture and the negativism that usually goes with it keeps you humble. Nobody has all the answers so I like looking at the possibility that someone else’s view might have merit.