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danschance
Guest
A godly woman has no problem being under the authority of godly men. Would feminists feel the same way?
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No danschance, that is your take on it. Not the Bible's. We are to submit one to another.
"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21
I have no problem submitting to any man or woman out of reverence to Christ. As for being under anyone's authority, I am under the authority of Christ Jesus.
"It pleases me that you continue to remember and honor me by keeping up the traditions of the faith I taught you. All actual authority stems from Christ." 1 Cor. 11:1-2 MSG
Of course, you could go back to the earlier translations and we could have a post on how it is a universal principle for all women to wear head coverings, but I don't think that many here would agree with that in the verses immediately following these verses.
"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21
I have no problem submitting to any man or woman out of reverence to Christ. As for being under anyone's authority, I am under the authority of Christ Jesus.
"It pleases me that you continue to remember and honor me by keeping up the traditions of the faith I taught you. All actual authority stems from Christ." 1 Cor. 11:1-2 MSG
Of course, you could go back to the earlier translations and we could have a post on how it is a universal principle for all women to wear head coverings, but I don't think that many here would agree with that in the verses immediately following these verses.
danschance,
Unfortunately your question raises 3 more issues:
1. We have to define what a "godly woman" is.
(There shouldn't be disagreement on this, but there is.)
2. We have to define what a "godly man" is.
(There shouldn't be disagreement on this, but there is.)
3. We have to define what it really means, biblically, to be "under authority".
(This is often poorly understood. And often men really do use this inappropriately.)
Unfortunately your question raises 3 more issues:
1. We have to define what a "godly woman" is.
(There shouldn't be disagreement on this, but there is.)
2. We have to define what a "godly man" is.
(There shouldn't be disagreement on this, but there is.)
3. We have to define what it really means, biblically, to be "under authority".
(This is often poorly understood. And often men really do use this inappropriately.)
Angela, I'm glad you posted, i agree with you. A while ago there was this young man posting some threads that where insulting to woman ( in my opinon) he didn't like my opinions and called me a feminist. I responded that I am not insulted by that. I believe that women should have equality. I also believe women are called to be pastors. Oh and by the way I am pro life.
So I guess defending myself and other women makes me a Jezebel.
Anyhow Angela I agree with you.
So I guess defending myself and other women makes me a Jezebel.
Anyhow Angela I agree with you.
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danschance
Guest
Godly: Having great reverence for the God of the bible; pious
Authority: The direction of a pastor, elder/deacon or husband.
So what happens to unmarried women? And I am still waiting for someone to show me the actual scripture that qualifies the job of pastor to only men.
I consider myself a godly woman. I study the Bible daily, in Seminary and on my own. I serve God in all I do. I serve in my church. I respect my pastors, and the many godly women I have met. But I do disagree on the authority issues. Simply because it is not supported in the Greek.
I really hope I don't have to go into it here again! Very sad the way the Bible has been so badly translated, and resulting in doctrines in which one gender is in authority over another in direct disagreement with Gal 3:28.
I consider myself a godly woman. I study the Bible daily, in Seminary and on my own. I serve God in all I do. I serve in my church. I respect my pastors, and the many godly women I have met. But I do disagree on the authority issues. Simply because it is not supported in the Greek.
I really hope I don't have to go into it here again! Very sad the way the Bible has been so badly translated, and resulting in doctrines in which one gender is in authority over another in direct disagreement with Gal 3:28.
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danschance
Guest
I also agree that women should have equal pay and equal opportunity for advancement.
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danschance
Guest
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danschance
Guest
I beg to differ. The next verse is not about head coverings. The next verse shows women or at the very least, wives are to be under the authority of a man.
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jinx
Guest
I don't know why a woman can't act like a woman and a man act like a man. Why in the WORLD would a woman want to take on any more responsibility than what GOD has given her. A "help mate" is what GOD wants for us women. HE gave us examples of doing this in Prov. 31.
We are wired differently. GOD is the mechanic. We don't go around messing with GOD's design, that's suicidal, cause your killing the purpose GOD set in you.
If women are so interested in being like the man and taking on their roll, I want to see them urinate like a man without landing a drop on themselves. IT'S AGAINST OUR NATURE!!!!!
We are wired differently. GOD is the mechanic. We don't go around messing with GOD's design, that's suicidal, cause your killing the purpose GOD set in you.
If women are so interested in being like the man and taking on their roll, I want to see them urinate like a man without landing a drop on themselves. IT'S AGAINST OUR NATURE!!!!!
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7seven7
Guest
I think you have the feminists who started the movement to stop the grose mistreatment of women back in the old days by selfish violent men, then the feminists who, I think, took it too far and tried to take more control of the world by gaining more rights than what men have (you see this very often in divorce cases where the women are more likely to have sole guardianship over children even though they might be more harmful and violent than the man they divorced). I think Professor falls under the first category. That's just two different types of feminism that I can think of from the top of my head. But there are, I think, a few more types that differ A LOT to the original reason for the movement. I agree with the initial movement and those who stuck to those beliefs, but not with what so many who are a part of it have become today.
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7seven7
Guest
And about the whole submission thing;
[h=3]Ephesians 5:21-31[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]submitting to one another in the fear of God.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[h=3]Marriage—Christ and the Church[/h][SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,[SUP]26 [/SUP]that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, [SUP]27 [/SUP]that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. [SUP]28 [/SUP]So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church
This is very close to being my absolute favorite verse in the whole bible because it explains so beautifully what love between a man and his wife should be.Yeh, it tells women to be submissive to their husbands, but I think some people often forget that it tells husbands to love their wife "just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her". Christ loved His Church so much that He died for her. If I love my wife like Christ told me to, then I will never "make her" submit to me. She will do so out of love, and I will submit my life for her just like Christ submitted for me. So in reality, we do submit one to another.
[h=3]Ephesians 5:21-31[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]submitting to one another in the fear of God.[SUP][a][/SUP]
[h=3]Marriage—Christ and the Church[/h][SUP]22 [/SUP]Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,[SUP]26 [/SUP]that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, [SUP]27 [/SUP]that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. [SUP]28 [/SUP]So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church
This is very close to being my absolute favorite verse in the whole bible because it explains so beautifully what love between a man and his wife should be.Yeh, it tells women to be submissive to their husbands, but I think some people often forget that it tells husbands to love their wife "just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her". Christ loved His Church so much that He died for her. If I love my wife like Christ told me to, then I will never "make her" submit to me. She will do so out of love, and I will submit my life for her just like Christ submitted for me. So in reality, we do submit one to another.
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Professor
Guest
Howdy Maxwel,
There are many different types of feminism. I'll just briefly go over some of the various types of feminist thought in the United States. Feminism is broken up in what is called "waves." The first wave mostly concerned the woman's right to vote and the woman's right to get an education. The second wave is the wave associated with a lot of the things posted on this thread. This wave started in the 70s roughly, and was associated with a lesbian movement (indeed "separatism" that women should separate altogether from men), and abortion rights. There are still second wave feminists around (indeed I know some). The third wave has extended beyond women's concerns and is concerned with poverty, racial discrimination, human rights abuses across the globe. You know, it wasn't that long ago that women were treated as property, and it is still true in many parts of the world today. We even see stories like this in the Old Testament: a father can sell his daughter into slavery, if a man rapes a virgin and refuses to marry her, he must pay the father a "bride price" since she lost her honor, and so on. There is now an emerging fourth wave of feminism, which concerns sexual rights and alternative sexual lifestyles. I consider myself most closely aligned with third wave feminism.
There are many different types of feminism. I'll just briefly go over some of the various types of feminist thought in the United States. Feminism is broken up in what is called "waves." The first wave mostly concerned the woman's right to vote and the woman's right to get an education. The second wave is the wave associated with a lot of the things posted on this thread. This wave started in the 70s roughly, and was associated with a lesbian movement (indeed "separatism" that women should separate altogether from men), and abortion rights. There are still second wave feminists around (indeed I know some). The third wave has extended beyond women's concerns and is concerned with poverty, racial discrimination, human rights abuses across the globe. You know, it wasn't that long ago that women were treated as property, and it is still true in many parts of the world today. We even see stories like this in the Old Testament: a father can sell his daughter into slavery, if a man rapes a virgin and refuses to marry her, he must pay the father a "bride price" since she lost her honor, and so on. There is now an emerging fourth wave of feminism, which concerns sexual rights and alternative sexual lifestyles. I consider myself most closely aligned with third wave feminism.
I remember that. That guy was banned too. I think I was harsh toward you as we'll, but now that I've seen you post more i feel that there's a huge difference in feminism and being a strong woman. I normally use the word "feminist" in a negetive way. You may not. Which is fine, but I can tell you're a strong woman which I believe us a Godly thing.
J
jinx
Guest
I think the point of this passage which you have so clearly stated is often missed. However, in the Greek, the word "submission" is actually missing in verse 22. The only way you can add it in is to also add it in for men to be submissive to women, which is voluntary, in order to make it consistent with the preceding verse. But really, the whole point is to instruct men on how to be towards their wives. Women do need to respect and love their husbands. Paul had a real purpose in writing this passage. He saw the prevailing attitudes of men towards women, especially in the Greek culture, and instructed men to love their wives!
The BIG point of course, is to remind believers how much Christ loved the church. That means each one of us. And that makes me so excited - that the gospel always comes back to the love of God! So it is really never about us - but God!
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danschance
Guest
Not sure where you got your information from, but the greek word "hypotasso", which according to Strong's means:
1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
Hypotasso, which clearly means submit, is present in both Eph. 5:21 and 22.