Abortion

Quote " Just because you hate the idea that a woman has a right to refuse to be an incubator against her will"
How is she an incubator against her will?! Unless we are talking about rape which is a very low percentage of abortions.A woman CHOOSES to have sex! It is not against her will at all.If you dont want to be pregnant dont have sex! Simple solution,no child has to be unwanted,aborted,or left orphans. Im sorry AngelFrog I like you, but you are really wrong here in your beliefs. Im so tired of this entitlement generation. They go out and have sex outside marriage, irresponsibly having partners they are not committed to and then want the right to have an abortion and say "this is my body".No,its not your body at all,it belongs to God and the child inside that body belongs to Him.If you've ever been at a christening the pastor usually speaks of how a child is given to the parents by God to raise and lead in the right path.The child is not theirs,it is Gods. The same goes for our bodies,they are not ours but Gods.And abortion is morally wrong.No one wants to take responsibility for their actions any more.Your choice begins before you have sex,not after.

Quote " ....The God that ordered the Israelites to shed innocent blood in his name and under his command, would destroy America because our laws don't force women in this God given country to assume a higher moral standard for life than what God himself exampled in scripture toward the lives he created and took away."

AngelFrog you are young but I want to warn you that is quite a charge against God.Can you give the Scripture you are talking about where God told the Israelites to shed innocent blood? Id really appreciate examples of God taking innocent lives the way you are saying.Thanks

They not only want to murder babies, they want to kill anyone opposed to them murdering babies:

Abortion Activist Throws Firebomb at Pro-Lifers Praying at Texas Abortion Clinic | LifeNews.com

THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT, and you missed it. NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN JUSTIFIED BY LAW. Those who thought they were, such as the Pharisees were told by Jesus, "You are of your father the Devil." That is how far off the mark of Holy Perfection they fell, and that HOLY PERFECTION which is the requirement of the LAW, can only be obtained as gift of GRACE from JESUS, the only one who has ever perfectly LIVED the LAW. The Law only proved to man that he cannot live up to GOD's Holy Standard, and should drive us to our knees CRYING OUT for HIS MERCY, while we completely surrender to Him as MASTER.

What is the difference between that LAW written in stone and the Law written on our hearts?

VERY, VERY LITTLE! Most Christians today have an erroneous idea about what the LAW WRITTEN IN STONE means.

They falsely think it was a system of do and don't that you had to keep in order to be Right with GOD.

WRONG! THAT IS WHAT THE PHARISEES THOUGHT, and other self righteous groups who wanted to pat themselves on the back for earning their righteousness.

The Law Written in Stone was to show you that you can NEVER BE PERFECT, and even though our striving to perfect should be our goal or target that we aim at; every time you missed or failed you had to sacrifice one of your animals to cover that sin. THE LAW IN STONE'S primary purpose was to drive you to your knees to cry out for a Messiah (Saviour)

{Sounds like an easy way to go bankrupt in the livestock industry to me.}

The Law Written on our Hearts is the exact same LAW with a couple of minor changes. NO I DO NOT BELIEVE IN WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS. The first change was the animal sacrifice to cover sin. CHRIST IS OUR SPOTLESS LAMB SACRIFICE. The animal sacrifices were the ONLY part of the LAW that Passed Away. Therefore the MOTIVE for striving to be perfect changed -
FROM: "I have to keep striving to be perfect to show my love for GOD, and to prevent losing more animals to sacrifice."

TO: "I want to keep striving to be perfect, because I LOVE HIM, for HE demonstrated HIS LOVE for me by becoming my once for all time SACRIFICIAL LAMB."

Yes they are two different Covenants, One with NATION of ISRAEL his chosen people and One with his adopted children, the Church. BOTH are to strive to keep the LAW to show their LOVE for GOD, but NEVER as a way to EARN Salvation or Righteousness.

The Sabbath Law was a sign of that FIRST COVENANT with the Nation ISRAEL.

Exodus 31:13-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Tell the Israelites: You must observe My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, so that you will know that I am Yahweh who sets you apart.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death. If anyone does work on it, that person must be cut off from his people.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Work may be done for six days, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] It is a sign forever between Me and the Israelites, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.”

Now along comes our New Covenant, importing the same Laws written in stone to become written on our hearts, and JESUS BECOMES OUR HIGH PRIEST. Why is that important. Because JESUS was not from the tribe of Levi, there was a required CHANGE that had to be made in the LAW, and I believe that is why JESUS reiterated 9 of the 10 commandments but NOT the Sabbath Law.

Hebrews 7:12-22 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must be a change of law as well.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For the One these things are spoken about belonged to a different tribe. No one from it has served at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Now it is evident that our Lord came from Judah, and Moses said nothing about that tribe concerning priests.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And this becomes clearer if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
[SUP]16 [/SUP] who did not become a ⌊priest⌋ based on a legal command concerning physical descent but based on the power of an indestructible life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For it has been testified: You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] So the previous command is annulled because it was weak and unprofitable
[SUP]19 [/SUP] (for the law perfected nothing), but a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] None of this ⌊happened⌋ without an oath. For others became priests without an oath,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] but He became a priest with an oath made by the One who said to Him: The Lord has sworn, and He will not change His mind, You are a priest forever.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] So Jesus has also become the guarantee of a better covenant.


So, what is our WORSHIP COMMAND?

Hebrews 10:23-25 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

NOTICE the primary change is that it did not specify the Day of the week we are to worship.

Romans 14:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

SO WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH THIS THREAD. Some have made statements that the Old Testament Law does not apply to Abortion. OH YES IT DOES. The LAW was not abolished, just the animal sacrifice requirement for disobeying the Law.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keepMy commands.

Matthew 5:18 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Isaiah 51:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] "Hear me, you who know what is right, you people who have my law in your hearts: Do not fear the reproach of men or be terrified by their insults.

Jeremiah 31:33 (ESV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

1 John 5:3 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Amazing how so many want to call those killed by GOD, victims of GOD's hate, instead of blaming the people for their HATRED towards GOD.

They white-wash the evil sin, and then call the evil sinners "innocent". And begin to spew even more hatred for GOD. AMAZING!

Exodus 20:1-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then God spoke all these words:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the place of slavery.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Do not have other gods besides Me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Do not make an idol for yourself, whether in the shape of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You must not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the fathers’ sin, to the third and fourth ⌊generations⌋ of those who hate Me,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] but showing faithful love to a thousand ⌊generations⌋ of those who love Me and keep My commands.


Nope, no innocents here either.


Amos 5:12-17 (GW)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I know that your crimes are numerous and your sins are many. You oppress the righteous by taking bribes. You deny the needy access to the courts.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] That is why a wise person remains silent at such times, because those times are so evil.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Search for good instead of evil so that you may live. Then the LORD God of Armies will be with you, as you have said.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Hate evil and love good. Then you will be able to have justice in your courts. Maybe the LORD God of Armies will have pity on the faithful few of Joseph.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] This is what the LORD, the Almighty God of Armies, says: There will be loud crying in every city square, and people will say in every street, “Oh, no!” They will call on farmers to mourn and on professional mourners to cry loudly.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] There will be loud crying in every vineyard, because I will pass through your land {with death}. The LORD has said this.

Amazing how so many want to call those killed by GOD, victims of GOD's hate, instead of blaming the people for their HATRED towards GOD.

They white-wash the evil sin, and then call the evil sinners "innocent". And begin to spew even more hatred for GOD. AMAZING!

Exodus 20:1-6 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then God spoke all these words:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the place of slavery.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Do not have other gods besides Me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Do not make an idol for yourself, whether in the shape of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You must not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the fathers’ sin, to the third and fourth ⌊generations⌋ of those who hate Me,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] but showing faithful love to a thousand ⌊generations⌋ of those who love Me and keep My commands.


Nope, no innocents here either.


Amos 5:12-17 (GW)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I know that your crimes are numerous and your sins are many. You oppress the righteous by taking bribes. You deny the needy access to the courts.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] That is why a wise person remains silent at such times, because those times are so evil.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Search for good instead of evil so that you may live. Then the LORD God of Armies will be with you, as you have said.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Hate evil and love good. Then you will be able to have justice in your courts. Maybe the LORD God of Armies will have pity on the faithful few of Joseph.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] This is what the LORD, the Almighty God of Armies, says: There will be loud crying in every city square, and people will say in every street, “Oh, no!” They will call on farmers to mourn and on professional mourners to cry loudly.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] There will be loud crying in every vineyard, because I will pass through your land {with death}. The LORD has said this.

AngelFrog, and EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS THREAD:


You especially AngelFrog, I want you to take a long hard look at the picture on this Website, and then tell me you still support Abortions.


WARNING! The following website that I will post at the bottom has a single picture that shows what Abortions really do to the unborn babies more Graphically than any other picture that I have ever seen. I have NO IDEA how anyone can ever look at this picture one time, and still support Abortions:

WARNING! The picture on the following site is REAL and EXTREMELY GRAPHIC.

The following website also relates the current day Abortions to the ancient human sacrifices of children, just like I pointed out earlier:

Abortion and the Ancient Practice of Child Sacrifice

VCO you are right that education is needed. I know of two videos that should be watched. This one doesnt contain anything extreme graphic. Words are monstruous enough, I watched again and was trembling. I'll find another that really deals with the process, I think it's in my language but not sure, watched it long ago.

[video=youtube;BtpdYlcbVRQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtpdYlcbVRQ[/video]

If I watched that many plagues and miracles in the favor of YHWH around, you'd think those parents would have themselves CONVERTED as well and saved both themselves and the children... had plenty of time to get assured did they not? Death of the firstborn was the last plague, and they were forewarned also and could have saved their children... had plenty of chances. But they refused each time, just like Sodom and the other people in the Bible who were punished. Without God delighting in it... He simply had to destroy them, no options left!

I thank God that He is not so eager and quick to judge us, as men's mouth are quick to judge HIM... and I have been guilty of this too before I believed.

some of them did convert, and save themselves, and some saved their own families also. and some left with the hebrews when the hebrews left. not many, just like today, not many are saved. but some.

the miracle for people today? jesus raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. that may be the ONLY sign for anyone these days. as it is written.

even though no one else can give eternal life, or has risen from the grave and ascended into heaven,

most multitudes of people on earth, including most religious people, will not go with jesus. they have too much sin they hold onto and won't let go of. according to jesus word.

Yes Jeff - in OT times there were all these miracles going for the cause of prophecy of Christ - they were given more and required more. We have one sign of resurrection and that we did not personally see, yet we believed, but in the OT you had unbelievers who testified, or their ancestor testified about uttmost miracles done by the prophets, fires from heaven, pillars of smoke, sea opening up for them to pass and to swallow their enemies, and they STILL wouldnt believe and went on with demonic human sacrifices and lewd living. Some places were so messed up, literal hell on earth.

And then people wonder today, why they were punished and why did God do this...? Really need to get more immersed into the text and the situation presented, I like to ask, imagine you were really there - what would YOU do? God gives everyone a chance to know Him, and not just a chance but the best chance He can possibly give, at that, with His foreknowledge.

at first, i did not see, yet i believed. i willingly , joyously, believe.

remember that many of the Hebrews believed also. many did not, and many did. it was still a small part of people on earth, then , and now again....

people today can believe if they chose to. if yahweh (god) has mercy on them. he delights to, if they give up everything to belong to him.

if they cling to their life on this world, to the things of the world (which most do) then they don't get to be his disciples. simple. that's why few ever find the way to life. it is too hard to find the narrow way.

In case you ever need this to help lead one of the modern day unbelievers to become a Believer; I stumbled across some impressive proof that GOD inspired the Bible recently, during a discussion on a thread that I started: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/109799-does-bible-describe-coming-nuclear-war.html

We were discussing:

Ezekiel 12:19-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then say to the people of the land: This is what the Lord GOD says about the residents of Jerusalem in the land of Israel: They will eat their bread with anxiety and drink their water in dread, for their land will be stripped of everything in it because of the violence of all who live there.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] The inhabited cities will be destroyed, and the land will become a desolation. Then you will know that I am Yahweh.”

Someone said that proves the HCSB is a bad translation because Jerusalem in Ezekiel's day was in the land of Judah. Instantly the light switch of understanding came on in my head, and I started looking at the rest of the translations in my WORDsearch 10 software, and I found no less than 9 translations that said Jerusalem in the land of Israel. WOW! I believe those two verses are future prophecy about when the residents of Jerusalem will recognize YESHUA as being Yahweh. HOWEVER in Ezekiel's day, ONLY GOD would know that in the future, Jerusalem would really be in the land of Israel, and it would no longer be called Judah.

With that kind of proof that GOD inspired the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, it makes it a LOT more difficult for the doubters to dismiss what He said in:

Exodus 21:22-25 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely
{This would be UNINTENTIONAL ABORTION, so imagine what GOD thinks of DELIBERATE ABORTION.}
but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Great points! Exactly,I had forgotten about these verses.

FREE BIBLE SOFTWARE

In case you are wondering, how I am able to pull up so many verses on a given subject so quickly. IT IS NOT FROM SCRIPTURE MEMORIZATION. I have what is in my opinion, the best and simplest Bible software program that I have every found, and believe me I have tried just about all of them.

I have WORDsearch 10, however they also have a FREE version of it called WORDsearch Basic. The difference is only more tools, options, and Books are available in the paid version compared to the FREE Basic Version. ALL the important tools are included in the FREE Basic Version, so it functions exactly the same. And once you have installed the Free Basic Version, you can go back to their website and select from over 200 FREE BOOKS to add to your Library, which includes several of the older Translations of the Bible, a few modern English Translations such as GWT and BBE, and amazingly the new Holman's Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) is also still FREE. No time to read a manual? YOU DON'T HAVE TO. Under the Help on the Menu Bar, you will find links to short video Tutorials to all the features of the Bible Library Software Program.

Here is where you can download the FREE WORDsearch Basic program, and on the Menu Bar of that same web page, you will find the link to their FREE BOOKS. The WORDsearch Basic program has to be installed before you can download any of the FREE BOOKS:

https://www.wordsearchbible.com/basic

I may sound all "Well, that's God! He can do anything he wants because he is God" to you, but really though. God is the author of life. We are not. He is the one who can produce life; we only reproduce. It's not any of our place (not even the pregnant woman's place) to decide who should live or die.

Good scriptures, but the Lord Jesus did away with that standard under the NT as He said He requires mercy instead.
Notice how what you are quoting here in Exodus 21:22-25 is about the eye for an eye standard. The Lord in His way shows no to that standard now.

Matthew 5:38-42
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

In Psalm we read that we are not to worry when the wicked take leadership - that will always happen. And there will always be wars too.
Our trust must only be in God to bring forth His purposes. Never in man whether he is godly or not. He has not got the ultimate power. Our world will only get more darker until the LIGHT of the world returns and puts things in order.

Sorry if this has gotten off track from abortions, but there seems to be many detours on this thread. I've already commented on abortions.

If by standard, you mean, the required penalty for not keeping the Law, we agree. I have to wonder though, how many Old Testament believers went bankrupt because they broke the Law too often and had to sacrifice lambs too often.

I humbly disagree. There's nothing ethical about it.