Babies born sinful?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a baby is born in sin!

The piece of Scripture that (so called) theologians like to use to support their erroneous born in (and original) sin theories is found in Psalm 51v5 which states:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Were it not for doctrinal bias we should understand from this verse that it was his mother who was in sin at his conception, not David. Suppose the verse read "in bitterness, or in joy, did my mother conceive me!" we should unhesitatingly refer the bitterness or joy to his mother not to David, as is grammatically correct: "in sin" is an adverbial phrase qualifying the verb, not the object.

The Lord Jesus said in Matt 19v14:

"Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

From this verse we understand that if a child dies it retains it's soul and spirit and ascends into the Presence of God in Heaven, it's body going into the grave. It does NOT go into Hades or Hell like the heretic Augustine taught!

Isaiah 53v6 states:

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Every individual sins because he/she wants to as an act of their own free will, ie. man goes astray (of his own free will), he is NOT born astray! This is excatly what Ezek 18v4,20 states, a person dies for their OWN sin, NOT that of their father's!

If I understand what you are saying, you believe that when a baby is born, it does not have "original sin." I'm curious if you could tell me, according to this theological view, at what age would a child be responsible for his or her own actions? You said a baby would not go to hell or hades if it died without being baptized. Would a 2-year-old? What about a 4-year-old? What age would it be necessary for a child to repent and be baptized in order to be saved?

God would not send someone blameless to hell and even if they weren't blameless, God is a God of Mercy. He is Kind and forgiving toward the helpless.

God would not send someone blameless to hell and even if they weren't blameless, God is a God of Mercy. He is Kind and forgiving toward the helpless.

As you see it, who is blameless before God, and how?

This is exactly the problem with just about any theology of salvation I have ever heard except for Universalism. Any theology that says God forgives some people and not others begs the question: what is the difference between those who are forgiven and those who are not? If it is based on what we do, then it is works-righteousness, and EVERYTHING in the new testament SCREAMS against works-righteousness.

There is NOTHING we can do to get into heaven.
There is nothing WE can do to get into heaven.
There is nothing we can DO to get into heaven.
There is nothing we can do to GET into heaven.
There is nothing we can do to get into HEAVEN.

Unless you say that Paul is wrong, this much is certain. (I am willing to accept that Paul could be wrong, but if you give this as a premise, then you cannot rely on anything in the Scripture, because you are rejecting the Scripture as authority.)

The "double predestination" teaches that God has fore-ordained who will be saved and who will be damned, before they're even born. This accepts the basis that there's nothing WE can do. The problem is, it denies the grace of God. I gracious God would not allow a person to be born who was destined to die and be sent to hell, eternal damnation and utter pain and torture. Such a god would be worthy of neither worship nor praise. Again, Scripture tells us quite clearly that God does NOT desire for ANYONE to be damned, so such a theology denies Scripture.

The doctrine I accept, as far as I know, doesn't have a name. I first heard it from a Lutheran pastor. It's kind of a mix of Scripture combined with the Catholic doctrine of purgatory and Universalism. Although the exact theology is not found in Scripture, it is the only explanation I have been able to find so far that does not directly contradict Scripture. In my view, all humans will be saved. However, we will not be saved as we are. After we die, we will be purified. Those of us who have more sin or evil in us will have more removed, and very little of our mortal souls will be left by the time we get to heaven. Those of us who are relatively good, with relatively few sins or evil in us, more of us will be left in heaven. This purification is referred to in Scripture. Jesus speaks about the "winnowing fork" and similar parables. Many theologians have said the chaff represent souls who will go to hell and wheat represents souls who will go to heaven. But for the reasons I stated above, this does not mesh with the God of mercy whom Jesus told us about. I believe the chaff and the wheat represent aspects of each individual, the chaff will be thrown in the fire, and the wheat be kept. Gold with impurities is a better analogy, as each of us is like gold, only with impurities which need to be burned out. That burning process may indeed be painful, but not eternal.

A pure Universalist view does not allow for God's Justice. This view I've outlined allows for God to be both infinitely Merciful, yet also Just. And unless someone offers another theology which does not deny God's mercy (as does every doctrine I've heard besides the one outlined above), it's the one I'm sticking with as most consistent with Scripture.

The bible says that hell is eternal.

So, it's either you believe that or you make up your own doctrine.

The Anti-Christ will deceive many but of God's elect he won't because God knows them and they hear his voice. The truth is that there are deaf and there are blind, those which don't come to the light, lest their deeds should be reproved. If you go against an eternal God, you get an eternal punishment.

First of all, can you please provide BCV for this.

Secondly, let's assume that hell is eternal. Hell can be purple-and-pink polka-dotted for all I care. What I cannot accept, and what anyone who worships a loving God should not accept, is that any God worthy of our love, let alone our worship and praise, would send anyone to a place of eternal pain and suffering.

Think of it this way. I can't stand to watch people suffer. Even if they deserve it. Even someone who has wronged me greatly. I may feel a small sense of "freudenschade" at their misfortune, like if they get publicly shamed or lose a contest or something, but actual pain?

Let's talk about pain for a second. Have you ever been in major pain? I've broken bones. I gave birth once. I've had a 2nd degree burn. I've had migraines. The most horrific thing in any of these circumstances is not knowing when the pain would stop. Just wanting it to end. One migraine was so bad I almost took my own life just to stop the pain (this was after several days of agony).

You're trying to tell me that God, a God who loves us so much that he sent his only-begotten son to die for us, this loving, compassionate God, would watch someone suffer that kind of pain ... for an ETERNITY?????

Adolf Hitler would not be able to stand watching that kind of pain. Anyone who could watch that would be a sick, sadistic, twisted ... well, I'm out of words I can use in this forum.

If God were to allow actual physical pain and suffering to any human -- ETERNAL pain and suffering -- to allow it, let alone to cause it .... I'm sorry, such a god would be unworthy of belief, let alone worship and praise. And honestly, anyone who does believe in such a god (and I know a lot of people who do) is suspect in my view.

Personally, if a total stranger, or even someone I don't like very much, is in any kind of trouble, I mean serious trouble, I will try to help them. Even if they have wronged me. Even if they continue to wrong me. Even if they tell me that I'm a horrible person.

How much more would I do something for someone I love? Wouldn't I go to the ends of the earth for someone I love? And isn't that exactly what God has done for us?

I cannot and will not worship a being who is less merciful than I am. Period. I would rather be an atheist and have no god at all than say that the only god was one who was less good than myself. Fortunately, the Bible tells me that I don't have to go without a god. The Bible tells me that there is a God who is infinitely merciful, and since I believe it, I do have a God who is even more loving than I am. Whew!

This is what the Bible says. I'm not making this stuff up. I'm just going by what I read in Scripture.



I didn't "make up" the doctrine I described -- it was handed down to me by a pastor, so I cannot take credit for it. But really, is there any doctrine that isn't made up? All theology is just humans attempting to describe the indescribable. Our God transcends all human understanding, so any time we try to put words to His Glory, we're bound to come up short. That's a given.

God is Love. Any doctrine that contradicts that tenet must be false.



This, too, is a made-up doctrine. I'm not saying it's wrong, or even anti-scriptural, but it is certainly made up. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

If God were to allow actual physical pain and suffering to any human -- ETERNAL pain and suffering -- to allow it, let alone to cause it ....

I agree with you - God doesn't 'allow' anyone to go to hell.
It's people who choose to go to hell.

Just because people go to hell doesn't mean that God doesn't love us. It just means that we failed. Badly, at that. God is just and gives us more chances than we deserve to go to heaven.

I also agree with you that God doesn't 'allow' physical pain and suffering to any human - we bring it upon ourselves. It's our fault. Yet people don't like to take responsibility and go saying that God 'allowed' or 'caused' it to happen.

Proverbs 8:36 "But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

Thank you! That's the truth. God doesn't desire anyone to go to hell. People go to hell and enter into judgment of their own choice. Don't blame God for the actions of others.

I'm not even going to read all this, it's a book. I don't need to either. I know what the bible says and I don't need someone to tell me that no one goes to hell, it's not scriptural.

True, you don't have to read what I wrote. However, in not reading what I wrote before responding to it, you basically agreed with what I said and made yourself look stupid.

I recommend that if you don't want to read lengthy posts, you should not respond to them. Unless you really enjoy making a fool of yourself.

And, by the way, your post was as long as mine. Is that a bad thing?