Can you help me help my sister?

My sister (blood sister, not sister-in-Christ...though I guess we're actually both) and I have been texting and after the second time the same conversation came up this year, I thought I'd pose some questions that have been bothering her, here. She says it's an issue that's made her faith kinda get "stuck". Anyway, she said she was okay with me sharing on this site so here goes:

Her beef:
"If God is omniscient, then He already knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit. If God already knows the choices we're going to make, why give us a choice or free will? He knows who will follow Him and who won't so why would He allow those lost souls to be born into this world and remain lost and then doomed to eternal torment? Especially when He desires that none be lost? He can prevent that, but He doesn't. Why?"

She knows a lot of this comes back to faith or "His ways aren't ours", but feels those aren't "real" answers.

I've given many examples that I thought would help her sort it out in her mind but I think I've fallen flat.
I told her we parents do the same thing God does. We offer a choice to our kids: Obey or be punished.
To that she says, "But we don't kill our kids over their disobedience!"
I told her, "God spanks harder than we do."

Or, like Abraham with Isaac. God knew the choice Abraham would make but Abraham didn't. Not until that moment that he lifted the knife did he realize God was more important than the son he had been promised. I told her, we have free will and God might know what we're going to choose but...we don't. And that those choices are refining us like gold.

I've told her God doesn't want robots preprogrammed to love Him. That He wants us to love Him because we desire to. Just like we don't want to force our children to love us. We want them to choose to love us.

But then, she always brings it back to the people God knows won't make the choice and will die in sin. Why allow them to be born?

Basically anything I try to say or any scripture I share, she goes back to the beginning and says, "But there's no point because God could have stopped sin from the very beginning by not even offering a choice to Adam and Eve and He's allowed people to be doomed for all eternity when He didn't have to. Why?"

Hopefully this doesn't sound too garbled. It's hard to really convey her worry/question/doubt.
If anyone has things I can tell her about this matter that will help get her faith "unstuck", I'd appreciate it.

I'll be back later to check in for any words of wisdom.

My sister (blood sister, not sister-in-Christ...though I guess we're actually both) and I have been texting and after the second time the same conversation came up this year, I thought I'd pose some questions that have been bothering her, here. She says it's an issue that's made her faith kinda get "stuck". Anyway, she said she was okay with me sharing on this site so here goes:

Her beef:
"If God is omniscient, then He already knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit. If God already knows the choices we're going to make, why give us a choice or free will? He knows who will follow Him and who won't so why would He allow those lost souls to be born into this world and remain lost and then doomed to eternal torment? Especially when He desires that none be lost? He can prevent that, but He doesn't. Why?"

She knows a lot of this comes back to faith or "His ways aren't ours", but feels those aren't "real" answers.

I've given many examples that I thought would help her sort it out in her mind but I think I've fallen flat.
I told her we parents do the same thing God does. We offer a choice to our kids: Obey or be punished.
To that she says, "But we don't kill our kids over their disobedience!"
I told her, "God spanks harder than we do."

Or, like Abraham with Isaac. God knew the choice Abraham would make but Abraham didn't. Not until that moment that he lifted the knife did he realize God was more important than the son he had been promised. I told her, we have free will and God might know what we're going to choose but...we don't. And that those choices are refining us like gold.

I've told her God doesn't want robots preprogrammed to love Him. That He wants us to love Him because we desire to. Just like we don't want to force our children to love us. We want them to choose to love us.

But then, she always brings it back to the people God knows won't make the choice and will die in sin. Why allow them to be born?

Basically anything I try to say or any scripture I share, she goes back to the beginning and says, "But there's no point because God could have stopped sin from the very beginning by not even offering a choice to Adam and Eve and He's allowed people to be doomed for all eternity when He didn't have to. Why?"

Hopefully this doesn't sound too garbled. It's hard to really convey her worry/question/doubt.
If anyone has things I can tell her about this matter that will help get her faith "unstuck", I'd appreciate it.

I'll be back later to check in for any words of wisdom.

"If God is omniscient, then He already knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit. If God already knows the choices we're going to make, why give us a choice or free will?

My sister (blood sister, not sister-in-Christ...though I guess we're actually both) and I have been texting and after the second time the same conversation came up this year, I thought I'd pose some questions that have been bothering her, here. She says it's an issue that's made her faith kinda get "stuck". Anyway, she said she was okay with me sharing on this site so here goes:

Her beef:
"If God is omniscient, then He already knew Adam and Eve would sin and eat the forbidden fruit. If God already knows the choices we're going to make, why give us a choice or free will? He knows who will follow Him and who won't so why would He allow those lost souls to be born into this world and remain lost and then doomed to eternal torment? Especially when He desires that none be lost? He can prevent that, but He doesn't. Why?"

She knows a lot of this comes back to faith or "His ways aren't ours", but feels those aren't "real" answers.

I've given many examples that I thought would help her sort it out in her mind but I think I've fallen flat.
I told her we parents do the same thing God does. We offer a choice to our kids: Obey or be punished.
To that she says, "But we don't kill our kids over their disobedience!"
I told her, "God spanks harder than we do."

Or, like Abraham with Isaac. God knew the choice Abraham would make but Abraham didn't. Not until that moment that he lifted the knife did he realize God was more important than the son he had been promised. I told her, we have free will and God might know what we're going to choose but...we don't. And that those choices are refining us like gold.

I've told her God doesn't want robots preprogrammed to love Him. That He wants us to love Him because we desire to. Just like we don't want to force our children to love us. We want them to choose to love us.

But then, she always brings it back to the people God knows won't make the choice and will die in sin. Why allow them to be born?

Basically anything I try to say or any scripture I share, she goes back to the beginning and says, "But there's no point because God could have stopped sin from the very beginning by not even offering a choice to Adam and Eve and He's allowed people to be doomed for all eternity when He didn't have to. Why?"

Hopefully this doesn't sound too garbled. It's hard to really convey her worry/question/doubt.
If anyone has things I can tell her about this matter that will help get her faith "unstuck", I'd appreciate it.

I'll be back later to check in for any words of wisdom.

I actually have had the same question for years now. And it, along with other things, toppled my faith.
Simply put I stopped asking for people to answer that question. Because no one came close to even giving me pause on their answer, let alone resolving it.
It was actually rare that any Christian genuinely touched on the topic. Usually it wad more about them trying to convince me God is good and knows best (the same types of answers you seem to have given) but those are entirely unsatisfactory, and can even further fuel their original question.
Eventually I came to the conclusion no person on earth can legitimately answer it. That only God is able. But is He willing?
Speaking for myself only I can say God has not seemed interested in answering anything or resolving anything after nearly 4 years. He has stayed utterly silent on all matters I struggle with, seemingly entirely uninterested in me.

My point in sharing is to make you aware of the depth and difficulty of this question. Not many Christians have the capacity to have any affect on a person facing this.
Maybe things will go differently with your friend than they have with me. But it's doubtful it will be resolved quickly if it is resolved.

Hi, Genipher.

I would suggest to you and your sister that the first thing that we need to consider is this:

I Peter chapter 1

[17] And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
[18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[21] Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Before the foundation of the world, or before there was ever an earth or a man and woman upon the face of the same, Christ had been foreordained to shed his precious blood as a lamb without blemish and spot to redeem fallen mankind.

In other words, God, in his foreknowledge, had the solution in place before the problem ever even began.

Moving ahead to the creation account, we read:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." (Genesis 1:31)

At God's end, he not only created everything in a "very good" condition, but, again, he also had a redemptive plan in place before anything was ever created.

What went wrong?

Well, sin began in the angelic realm, and we get a pretty good glimpse of that here:

Ezekiel chapter 28

[11] Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
[12] Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
[17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
[18] Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Here, we clearly read of a "cherub" (vss. 14, 16) or an angel who was not only "created" (vs. 13), but who "was perfect in his ways from the day he was created, till iniquity was found in him" (vs. 15).

This "cherub" or angel, I would propose to you, is none other than the one we call "Satan" today.

"His heart was lifted because of his beauty" (vs.17), and "he corrupted his wisdom" (vs. 17) which he was "full of" (vs. 12) "by reason of his brightness" (vs. 17).

In other words, he ultimately fell due to such sins or iniquities as pride and vanity.

When it comes to the topic of eternal torment, Jesus said:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41)

According to Jesus Christ, "everlasting fire" was "prepared for the devil and his angels", and not originally for man.

However, seeing how men and women have willfully chosen to follow the devil and his angels throughout history, their ultimate fate will be the same as that of those whom they are following.

Again, Jesus said:

John chapter 3

[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

According to Jesus Christ, people will ultimately be condemned not because of any evil that was perpetrated at God's end, but rather because they "loved darkness rather than light", and Jesus is that light, "because their deeds were evil" (vs. 19).

Yes, "everyone that does evil hates the light", and, again, Jesus is that light, "neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved" (vs. 20).

My overall point?

Well, simply that God is NOT the bad guy here.

Again, he had a solution put in place before the foundation of the world, and then he created the world in a condition that was "very good".

Sin or iniquity began in the angelic realm with Satan and his angels, and then it carried over into the human race as men and women WILLFULLY CHOSE to follow Satan and his angels as opposed to God.

Even then, God has presented fallen mankind with a redemptive remedy to his problems, but, sad to say, many will never come to the light lest their deeds should be reproved.

With such being the case, their damnation will not only be just, but it will also be that which they've WILLFULLY CHOSEN themselves.

How then is God the bad guy here?

He isn't.

It's Satan, his angels, and those who willfully choose to follow them who are truly evil, and God, in his justice, will see that they are dealt with accordingly.

I hope that this helps.

Ecclesiastes chapter 7

[27] Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account:
[28] Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
[29] Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

I understand many people struggle with this question.
You will NOT get an "AHA!" type answer this side of the glass darkly.

I have other questions, but I have never struggled with this question. There is one overriding principal Truth I know on these type issues.

God is God, and I am not. I think the closest answer we can get now is in the Book of Job, and also:


Ephesians 2:7-10

New King James Version


7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

The verses in 1 Peter are really helpful, here. Though, knowing my sister, I'm pretty sure she'll say, if God already had a solution, why did He allow the problem?
I'll definitely pass this along to her.

You sisters sounds like she really wants to stop everyone from being born

well shes kinda missing the point.

She doesnt understand that yes God knows we may mess up.
But He has found a way to redeem us through Jesus Christ. So that we may choose Him. Its not preordained that anyones going to choose Him But if we do get born AGAIN and thats really is salvation guaranteed.


I mean why do people keep arguing round in circles about God, its like when the Jewish ppl, whod known God all their lives, didnt think Jesus was the Messiah. They would reason ok God chose us out of all the people of the earth to be holy so why bother with all other ppl ..gentiles etc. But no at least the Jewish ppl , well some who actually cottoned on to the fact that Jesus was the Messiah so He could be a light to the gentiles.

You know...Jesus, Gods only begotten son. The reason why we are CHRISTians. We arent all God botherers.

Alrighty. I'm taking it all in. Digesting. Trying to formulate a response for my sister.
Still open to more advice, thoughts, etc.

Alrighty. I'm taking it all in. Digesting. Trying to formulate a response for my sister.
Still open to more advice, thoughts, etc.

That is exactly how she feels. I can "hear" the and frustration in her texts. She says she'll never walk away from God but these questions have really shaken her. And, I admit, my pat answers haven't been helpful though she's told me she's not offended with my responses...they still make her think. It just doesn't help make any sense as to the BIG "why?"

Maybe some of the responses here will help you, too.

I think it's more that she doesn't want people born who will live and die in sin and never repent. She sorrows for those that will forever be lost and will never reign with Christ because she feels that, since God is the creator of all, that whole scenario could have been avoided.

Her argument is that we would have never messed up if God had not given us the option to sin in the first place.

Personally, I believe God's ways aren't ours and while I can find myself wondering about those that are born to never know Him, I have faith that God knows what He's doing and His plan is best. But the whole "have faith" platitudes aren't helping my sister. She seems to need more.