Is there a legal precedence for demonic possession?

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R

Rudimental

Guest
#21
#21
Nautilus said:
The thing is while all sins may be equal in nature to God, we can see a clear difference in severity when it comes to our life. Are you trying to tell me that in this life you stealing a pack a gum would be equal to someone murdering your mom? Would you two deserve the same punishment?
I mean im all for showing/telling people the love of Christ, but if you are on say death row for murder, fine, no matter what you still pay for your crime. Knowing how slow our justice system is youll have plenty of time to find Jesus.
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Hi Nautilus, thanks for your reply. Im well glad you replied with that question which Im happy to try and answer for you in the best way I know how.

No I am not trying to say that it is equal to us. But that it is equal to God.

When you say "we can see a clear difference in severity" well it doesn't matter what we (as a people) or you see. Or how we "judge" or weigh them. You or my or anyone alive's opinion doesn't matter one iota. Nil, zilch, squat! How or the way we measure other peoples sin has absolutely nothing to do with anything and will not save you or anyone. Its all about what God thinks. God is the beginning and the end of it all. God is perfect. God is just. That same just God needs to punish sin also. And the wages of that sin are death as you know. Basically to sin means to disobey God and become corrupted. Whether you only have stolen some gum as a kid, or have murdered someone as an adult. God simply cannot say that one is less than the other or that the smaller of sins deserves less of a punishment. It's is a ruined work in His sights as far as He is concerned. I'm sorry if that is a hard pill for you to swallow but thats basically how it is mate.

You see, before the fall of man, we would all have been perfect. Nobody would have ever sinned. And we wouldn't know what sin is. We wouldn't have been banished from the garden of Eden and we wouldn't be separated from God. We would have never had to live in a world with spikes, thorns, stings and fangs. The lion would have eat grass and laid with the lamb.

However we are, so we are now living in the world and must endure all the world has. That includes dumb penal systems that don't properly rehabilitate people only to find that a high percentage of cons re-offend and end up back inside again. Mostly thats just gangsters and gangbangers that are still trying to be hard like the world because they think they need to be and have not yet found Christ.

But thanks be to God in all his perfectness, He came up with a perfect plan to reconcile us to him through his one and only Son Jesus who also existed before the world was even created. (Get your head round that!) ;)

Its great to hear you say "im all for showing/telling people the love of Christ" All you need to do sometimes is just plant the seed and God will provide the water. :)

But yes you are right while we are in this world he or anyone will have to go through justice system and be sentenced to whatever degree depending on the severity of what he or they have done. The world does indeed weigh sins differently but the world doesn't call it sin though does it. The world calls it breaking the law. But so yes while what you say is indeed true and we do weigh sins differently and should do too! I mean we can't give the death penalty out for every sin otherwise we would all be dead already!! LOL but too God a sin is a sin is a sin and its about what HE thinks.

What we think don't count for nothing! You cannot argue with God. He kind of has you in check mate so to speak. You are just a pawn on his board. I am getting carried away! But I really hope this helped you too see this clearer now. :)

God bless you and everyone. Remember one thing. You didn't chose God. God chose you. ;)
 
Simona25

Simona25

Banned
#22
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
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0
#22
Rudimental said:
Hi there Simona waves how are you? :) That is very true. Even at the unfortunate account of himself. But if he was truly possessed i dont think he could drive a car either haha

Thats not to say he wasn't under the influence of darker forces though, that is all I am saying. He has expressed to the OP? that he said he felt like he was being controlled by demons at the time. It would be hard for a judge to believe that, even though they make you swear on the bible. The same judge that makes a man swear on the bible of the real and living God, will shun you if you say you was possessed by the real and living enemy of God. We need to all wake up and come to God then we can all hurry up and go to a much better place where there are no prisons, no murderers or thieves and where no moth or dust doth settle. :)
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"Set a watch, O Lord, on my mouth, and a strong door about my lips. 4 Incline not my heart to evil things/words, to employ pretexts for sins"

The verse in bold from the Psalm 140 (The Septuagint) is what I feel about the man who claims demonic possession in order to get away with murder.

In other words, all the casuistry, the sophistic debates a la Raskolnikov about murder means nothing more than employing words of guile to justify/excuse sin.
 
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Simona25

Simona25

Banned
#23
Sep 10, 2013
1,428
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#23
The penal systems are not dumber than the offended god of the westerners who can not forgive sin unless he kills god.
 
R

Rudimental

Guest
#24
#24
Hi Simona nice to meet you. Please excuse my naivety but I do not know some of the words you have spoken. Who is this Raskolnikov? A fictional character or someone real? And what for this Septuagint? This is the Latin word for "seventy"?? And for which part of Psalm 140 do you mean? Psalm 140 is a prayer of David over his enemies. How does it relate to someone claiming demonic possession for their sins?

You say in other words that its nothing more than using words to excuse a man sins. Well it is satan that caused man to sin in the first place (Eve and the serpent) and every sin since then has been because of him, ever since.

Therefor you can say it is Raskolnikov as much as you want but the fact is, this man here that OP is representing, only sinned because of demonic possession (of sorts) in the first place. Although we do not know the true circumstances behind it all so we can only speculate.

I agree though that people that do claim demonic possession when they were in their right mind well that is inexcusable really and just pure cowardice or even insaneness by the person.

I do believe that some people do truly indeed get way messed up by real demons that do influence them to do crazy things.

Don't deny demonic possession and don't laugh it off. As a believer you know it is real and that is why God has put it in the bible for us to learn and deal with it when it comes.

I think it is fair and true to say that. Either way I'm glad to have met the people in this thread and wish you all well.

Rudi.
 
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Nautilus

Nautilus

Senior Member
#25
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#25
Rudimental said:
Hi Nautilus, thanks for your reply. Im well glad you replied with that question which Im happy to try and answer for you in the best way I know how.

No I am not trying to say that it is equal to us. But that it is equal to God.

When you say "we can see a clear difference in severity" well it doesn't matter what we (as a people) or you see. Or how we "judge" or weigh them. You or my or anyone alive's opinion doesn't matter one iota. Nil, zilch, squat! How or the way we measure other peoples sin has absolutely nothing to do with anything and will not save you or anyone. Its all about what God thinks. God is the beginning and the end of it all. God is perfect. God is just. That same just God needs to punish sin also. And the wages of that sin are death as you know. Basically to sin means to disobey God and become corrupted. Whether you only have stolen some gum as a kid, or have murdered someone as an adult. God simply cannot say that one is less than the other or that the smaller of sins deserves less of a punishment. It's is a ruined work in His sights as far as He is concerned. I'm sorry if that is a hard pill for you to swallow but thats basically how it is mate.

You see, before the fall of man, we would all have been perfect. Nobody would have ever sinned. And we wouldn't know what sin is. We wouldn't have been banished from the garden of Eden and we wouldn't be separated from God. We would have never had to live in a world with spikes, thorns, stings and fangs. The lion would have eat grass and laid with the lamb.

However we are, so we are now living in the world and must endure all the world has. That includes dumb penal systems that don't properly rehabilitate people only to find that a high percentage of cons re-offend and end up back inside again. Mostly thats just gangsters and gangbangers that are still trying to be hard like the world because they think they need to be and have not yet found Christ.

But thanks be to God in all his perfectness, He came up with a perfect plan to reconcile us to him through his one and only Son Jesus who also existed before the world was even created. (Get your head round that!) ;)

Its great to hear you say "im all for showing/telling people the love of Christ" All you need to do sometimes is just plant the seed and God will provide the water. :)

But yes you are right while we are in this world he or anyone will have to go through justice system and be sentenced to whatever degree depending on the severity of what he or they have done. The world does indeed weigh sins differently but the world doesn't call it sin though does it. The world calls it breaking the law. But so yes while what you say is indeed true and we do weigh sins differently and should do too! I mean we can't give the death penalty out for every sin otherwise we would all be dead already!! LOL but too God a sin is a sin is a sin and its about what HE thinks.

What we think don't count for nothing! You cannot argue with God. He kind of has you in check mate so to speak. You are just a pawn on his board. I am getting carried away! But I really hope this helped you too see this clearer now. :)

God bless you and everyone. Remember one thing. You didn't chose God. God chose you. ;)
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Sigh, Im done here. Lets just punish everyone equally with the death penalty. Its simply easier that way apparently at least we are being Godlike by not having a tier system of crime.
 
R

Rudimental

Guest
#26
#26
Nautilus said:
Sigh, Im done here. Lets just punish everyone equally with the death penalty. Its simply easier that way apparently at least we are being Godlike by not having a tier system of crime.
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Dude. You are still not getting it and are seriously missing the point I am making!

Firstly, stop going "sigh" in all your replies as if you are all knowing or something, its darn right rude.

Secondly, don't say "Im done here" as if you are all knowing about this particular subject and anything anyone else says is wrong or something. Again, just rude mate.

And lastly, you are still missing the point I am making!

Like I said "But yes you are right while we are in this world he or anyone will have to go through justice system and be sentenced to whatever degree depending on the severity of what he or they have done."

I've already agreed with that so why are you still trying to argue with me as though I am stupid or something?

Simply put, unless a person confesses and repents of their sin (no matter what they have done) (even if they have paid for their crime through the judicial system) and accepts Christ as their Lord and savior, they are still going to hell to be separated from God for all eternity.

This is the simple truth. I am sorry if it is a bitter pill for you to swallow but I don't make the rules.

It's not a case of oh its simply "easier that way". Don't "apparently" me as though I am talking nonsense here. Im 36 years old and I've been a born again Christian since I was 11. I've had 25 years to learn this.

You have taken my point and completely flipped it over to satisfy what you want to hear only.

It's okay, a lot of people have selective hearing and only want to swallow what tastes good to them.

Well I'm sorry but like broccoli or Brussels sprouts, although you can't stand the taste of it, it is more good for you than you realize.

I just hope that you get my point now. All I am saying is that a sin is a sin is a sin to God. ALL sin must be punished equally to Him. He doesn't have a set of scales that measures sin by severity. All sin is sin to God and must be punished. Otherwise God is not a just God. But as we know, He is.

He is also a very loving God and that's why He sent His one and only Son Jesus to die in place of our sins.

However..... the world, doesn't fully accept Christ. The world has a judicial system put in place to sentence people based upon the severity of their sin. If you burgle a house, you get a year or 2 in jail depending on what you done and the circumstances behind yourself. If you murder someone in cold blood you get 10 years to life, again depending on the circumstances behind it and yourself.

Even if you do pay your dues to society be it through prison time or social community work. Unless you come to accept that you are a sinner and in need of Christs forgiveness then you are not going to make it to Heaven.

It's as simple as that.


God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.
God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong.
 
Nautilus

Nautilus

Senior Member
#27
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#27
The whole salvation bit you keep rambling about literally has nothing to do with the topic at all though. Why you keep bringing up sin in God's eye I have no clue, since its not even a factor in this. Hence the exasperation with your comments. Youre over there talking about Y while the question was on X.
 
R

Rudimental

Guest
#28
#28
Nautilus said:
The whole salvation bit you keep rambling about literally has nothing to do with the topic at all though.
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I'm not "rambling on". I'm talking to you in a right and fair way. But of course it does anyway. I am trying to make you see my point. This person needs salvation just as much as anyone else here does. You are not "better" than he is because you have not got lost and have not murdered someone in a blind rage of stupidity.
Nautilus said:
Why you keep bringing up sin in God's eye I have no clue, since its not even a factor in this.
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What do you mean you have no clue? Have you forgotten what we have just been talking about?? It's all above. Remember, you was saying (in a sarcastic way) "yeah sure treat all murderers and rapists with love".

What I am saying is that you fail to see that you and I deserve the same judgment of death as they do..
Nautilus said:
Hence the exasperation with your comments. Youre over there talking about Y while the question was on X.
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I know what the OP's original question was tyvm. But I thought me and you were having a conversation since? Everything I have said since has been in exact reply to what you have said. So how can you say I am talking about Y when the question was on X?

We have since got off the X and are now talking about Y. The Y being your poor attitude towards your brother and not being able to see that all sin is sin to God. It doesn't matter what you have done or how many times you have done it.

We are all deserving of death. We don't deserve life. Thanks to Christ, we now can have life again (and so can the person that the OP in this thread is representing) despite having to go through the (fallen worlds) judicial system.

I don't want to go off topic here but I would be happy to discuss this with you more in PM if you want to.
 
R

Rudimental

Guest
#29
#29
PS. Sorry Nautilus if I did ramble on a bit I do ramble on a bit sometimes haha

And sorry if I went off topic talking about other things I tend to do that too i lol :)

But in reply to OP's question. There is no act ever been passed that says anyone can claim demonic possession for crimes. They can claim mental insanity though. But that doesn't come with a get-out-of-jail-free card. I would be happy to discuss this with you further though if you want with a view to seeing if we could see eye to eye on things. This is a particular subject that touches close to home for me and feel as though the law has it wrong so my heart goes out to such people.

When you come to a realization of how much Christ loves us you realize you that you don't even realize how much He does. When you realize how when you are saved from your faith for past, present and future sins and you see other people continuing to sin outside of the knowledge of their redemption from their faith in Christ (when they sin not knowing what it is they are actually doing ie; disobeying and offending God and separating themself from Him) then your heart goes out to them.

Although I still sin, for I am not yet made perfect. I am living in the flesh and the flesh has been corrupted and cast off. Yet I live in hope that one day I shall be made perfect again and shall never sin again for all eternity. At least the spiritual body I am living in anyway.

Here's me rambling on again! But I'm just thinking of this man who needs our love and compassion. Fortunately and hopefully on our part, he will get it according to Gods will whilst he is in prison from one of the chaplains there.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

After you have done that you can claim eternal happiness and bliss. It seems very hard to do now. So much needless pain and suffering in the world. Needless from our point-of-view but possibly necessary as part of Gods perfect plan.
 
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