The Covenant of Redemption

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NetChaplain

Active member
Nov 21, 2018
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#1
Is the Covenant of Redemption a thing! Yes, and God is a bit mysterious concerning this one, for it is the one that is for those, whom, created after His image, are also after His “good pleasure” (Phl 2:13). These are they who are more precious to God than the angels; for man is the sole being who is after the image of God!

The present covenant of which the Christian is a recipient is a Covenant between the Father and His Son, in that the Father sacrificed the Son and raised Him from the dead after expiating the sins of the Christian (Heb 13:20, 21; Act 2:24, 32; 3:15; 4:10; 5:30; 10:40, 41; 13:30; 17:31; Rom 1:4; 4:24; 25; 8:11; 1Co 6:14, 15; 2Co 4:14; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:20; Col 2:12; 1Th 1:10; 1Pe 1:21).

In every covenant there is a benefactor and a beneficiary. If you’re in a covenant with God, He is the Benefactor, and you are the beneficiary; and you must be morally good to receive blessing; and not having a new nature presents the possibility of one returning to the “old man.” Being recipients of the Covenant between the Father and the Son we, by the Spirit using the new nature, are made to be good, so that there is no possible chance of returning to the “old man” (Phl 2:13). In the present Covenant the Benefactors are the Father and the Son, and the beneficiaries are the Christians!

We see the covenant language between God and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Lev 26:42), but there is no such language concerning the covenant with Christians. Just, "This is My body which is given for you," and "This cup is the new testament in My blood, which is shed for you" (Luk 22:19, 20); and that's all that’s necessary! No covenant between God and Christians, for He desired believers to be assured of desiring and doing His good pleasure.

There will be a New Covenant between God and the Israelites who “believe in God” (Jn 14:1) during the Millennium, after they finally see the Lord Jesus (Jer 31:31 Eze 36:24-28). I say finally, because “Jews require a sign” (Jhn 2:18; 1Co 1:22); and because Israel will not “believe” until they see Him, they forfeit the “blessing” of being in the Son-ship of Christ (Jn 20:29). Thus, they will remain a “people of God” (Heb 8:10); and Christians will be a people of God—but also sons and daughters of God, and “kings and priests” (Rev 21:3; 1:6; 5:10).



Note: I realize this is not plainly taught in Scripture, thus it is an inference; but it is a doctrine that I believe is not just theory but true, and I find it to be the most encouraging of all doctrines, it being the primary reason for creation.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#2
No covenant between God and Christians, for He desired believers to be assured of desiring and doing His good pleasure.
I really enjoyed reading all that you've offered, here. As for the covenant in your writings, do you agree that the Holy Covenant established with Abraham is the Covenant that is now applied to the grafted-in Gentiles? This Covenant promises Spiritual Circumcision, which is what the physical circumcision instituted with Abraham in Genesis 17 represents. This physical circumcision represents what will happen to those who are Spiritually Circumcised of the Sinful Nature. This is the most important Covenant that we ought to seek out, examine all pertinent Scripture, and consider the entire body of passages collected.

If not for the Covenant established in Abraham and applying it to the entire Vine of Christ, those of the Family of Circumcision, I would be bound for Hell. If not for the Covenant established with our Father of Faith, who is Abraham, I would be destined for Hell. So, I am thankful for the Lord grafting me into His Holy Vine, and executing His Plan of Redemption for my Spiritual and Eternal Life. This Covenant is delivered by the Operative Hands of Christ. The entire Bible hinges upon Spiritual Circumcision . . . and this is what I believe in the primary, core understanding that we ought to Spiritually seek and grasp.

Just my meager, human thoughts.
 

NetChaplain

Active member
Nov 21, 2018
423
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#4
As for the covenant in your writings, do you agree that the Holy Covenant established with Abraham is the Covenant that is now applied to the grafted-in Gentiles?
It was the covenant with Abraham that established the Jewish religion, and it ended with Jacob (Israel). Now, this covenant is no more, but there will be a final New Covenant with Israel set up during the Millennium (Jer 31:31). This is not a covenant Christians have, because the Christians are recipients of the covenant made between the Father and the Son; and the other one is between God and Israel.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#5
Many people refer to the Israel of the Old Testament as being t governed by the "religion of the Jews." This is impossible because Judah is but one of the Twelve tries of Isreael.

Understanding the OT we see that the Israel of yore was headed by a High Priest who intu turn was headed by God.

This notion of a dnomination or religion of the Jews was spotlighted when Jesus Yeshua came to give us the great gift of Savation on the Cross.

After this those of that remnat of Israel who did not believe their Messiah became known as being Jewish as a denomination, and many denominations sprang up from it.

The true Israel of today is spiritual consisting of all who believe God, and as Jesus Yeshua teaches we become children of Abraham. Being so we are the true praisers of Yah or of God. This is what a true Jew is. Beware of those who say they are Jews but are not; they are a synagogue of Satan.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#6
It was the covenant with Abraham that established the Jewish religion, and it ended with Jacob (Israel). Now, this covenant is no more, but there will be a final New Covenant with Israel set up during the Millennium (Jer 31:31). This is not a covenant Christians have, because the Christians are recipients of the covenant made between the Father and the Son; and the other one is between God and Israel.
Ahhh . . . okie doke. Thanks for your answer.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#7
It was the covenant with Abraham that established the Jewish religion, and it ended with Jacob (Israel). Now, this covenant is no more, but there will be a final New Covenant with Israel set up during the Millennium (Jer 31:31). This is not a covenant Christians have, because the Christians are recipients of the covenant made between the Father and the Son; and the other one is between God and Israel.
Say, I've been thinking about your reply to my question and I was hoping that you might be able to share Scripture that might confirm that the Covenant with Abraham ended with Jacob. I haven't heard of that idea before and want to make sure that my understanding is correct. So, if you are aware of verses that might change my views, I would REALLY appreciate it.

Thank you so much!
 
Jul 2, 2011
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#8
In the words pronounced to Abraham he was promisedd that ALL nations would bless themselves in him for Abraham was the first to receive theGospel.
 
Nov 21, 2018
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#9
Say, I've been thinking about your reply to my question and I was hoping that you might be able to share Scripture that might confirm that the Covenant with Abraham ended with Jacob. I haven't heard of that idea before and want to make sure that my understanding is correct. So, if you are aware of verses that might change my views, I would REALLY appreciate it.

Thank you so much!
The Covenant was made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or Israel (Exo 2:24; Lev 26:42). There is no Scripture stating it ended with Israel, so it is inferred.
 
Feb 20, 2021
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#10
The Covenant was made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or Israel (Exo 2:24; Lev 26:42). There is no Scripture stating it ended with Israel, so it is inferred.
I am under the impression of Biblical text that the Covenant with Abraham applied to all of his descendants, not to just Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is also an Everlasting Covenant.

Genesis 17:7 KJV - "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

The Promise to be fulfilled is the Spiritual Circumcision of Heart, that which physical circumcision represented.

Romans 4:16-18 NKJV - "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be."
 
Nov 21, 2018
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#11
I am under the impression of Biblical text that the Covenant with Abraham applied to all of his descendants, not to just Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is also an Everlasting Covenant.
All the Jews who believe in God (Jn 14:1) are comprised by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their "Everlasting Covenant" is not the same as the Christians "Everlasting Covenant" of Hebrews 13:20, 21.


Genesis 17:7 KJV - "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

The Promise to be fulfilled is the Spiritual Circumcision of Heart, that which physical circumcision represented.
Romans 4:16-18 NKJV - "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be."[/QUOTE]
Here in Ro 4:16-18 it is speaking about salvation not only to all the "seed" of the Law, but "also to those who are of the faith of Abraham" before the Law was. Paul is a Jew and hence speaks of "the father of us all," meaning the Jews; thus to Abraham's descendants it shall be!

Num 25:12: Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:

Num 25:13:And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.



Eze 37:24
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

Eze 37:25
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Eze 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Eze 37:27
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eze 37:28
And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
 
Feb 20, 2021
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#12
All the Jews who believe in God (Jn 14:1)
I'm sorry, but I'm not following you. I don't see that John 14:01-6 is to Jews exclusively. John 14:06 states that "no one comes to the Father except through me." That applies to Jews and Gentiles alike, doesn't it?

Their "Everlasting Covenant" is not the same as the Christians "Everlasting Covenant" of Hebrews 13:20, 21.
How does Heb 13:20-21 become specific to "Christians"? The Eternal Covenant [ratified] by Christ is the Covenant of Spiritual Circumcision where the Lord puts a new Heart and Spirit within a person SO THAT they will obey. There is only one Faith and one Baptism. So, I'm not seeing a unique Covenant here. The Covenant, which is the Promise of a New Heart and Spirit by the Lord God, is applicable to males, females, Greeks, or Jew. The Covenant applies to those who are "grafted-in."

Here in Ro 4:16-18 it is speaking about salvation not only to all the "seed" of the Law, but "also to those who are of the faith of Abraham" before the Law was. Paul is a Jew and hence speaks of "the father of us all," meaning the Jews; thus to Abraham's descendants it shall be!
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point, nor do I see the link between your point and the following passages. Circumcision of the Heart is the same for all who receive it. The Promise to be fulfilled by Christ applies to those who have been given to the Father, of which He shall lose not one.
 
Nov 21, 2018
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#13
I'm sorry, but I'm not following you. I don't see that John 14:01-6 is to Jews exclusively. John 14:06 states that "no one comes to the Father except through me." That applies to Jews and Gentiles alike, doesn't it?
Jesus is speaking to Jews that believe in the Father (God) but not in Him yet at Jn 14:1: "ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

How does Heb 13:20-21 become specific to "Christians"? The Eternal Covenant [ratified] by Christ is the Covenant of Spiritual Circumcision
There is no spiritual or natural circumcision in Christ. The Christian (Jew or Gentile) doesn't need circumcision, natural or spiritual, because they are reborn into the son-ship of God by the Spirit of God. This overrides or bypasses everything, and is the highest calling in Him.
 
Feb 20, 2021
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#14
There is no spiritual or natural circumcision in Christ.
Oh, ok. So you believe that Colossians 2:9-15 is false? Spiritual Circumcision is not what separates those who are Alive and those who are Dead?

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature. ... 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.

There is only one Faith and one Baptism. They apply to all.
 
Nov 21, 2018
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#15
Oh, ok. So you believe that Colossians 2:9-15 is false? Spiritual Circumcision is not what separates those who are Alive and those who are Dead?
There is only one Faith and one Baptism. They apply to all.
Ok, I see what you mean here, but I always guard against the word "spiritual," because it more than not tends put forward the doctrine of replacement theology, thinking the New Israel is now the Church; but I don't see you saying this here, I think.

The circumcision I was referring to is the physical for the Jews under the Law. I would say those in Christ are circumcised in the heart by the Spirit in rebirth. But to me it's just circumcision in Christ, not a spiritual circumcision (but it's ok to say "spiritual" if you want). To me there's nothing spiritual about "circumcision made without hands," it being our sanctification for the "putting off the body of the sins of the flesh" - Col 2:11 (I think I'm being too technical about the use of spiritual, which is ok, because the word does make an inference of the circumcision without Scripture using the word for this work of God.
 
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#16
thinking the New Israel is now the Church; but I don't see you saying this here, I think.
Yes! That is absolutely what I believe. In fact, I would say that True Circumcision is what makes any person a "True Jew." This means that anyone who has received True Spiritual Circumcision is a "True Jew." Yes, I acknowledge that I may be wrong according to God, but to be a True Jew is what it means to belong to the Family of Circumcision.

Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant."

Again, Genesis 17 is where physical circumcision is instituted, and it represents the Spiritual Circumcision (the releasing of the Curse of the Lord) that Abraham and all his "decendents," even those who are "grafted in," which is what happens in any family where two families are combined. Gentiles are like step-brothers and sisters in the Circumcision Family . . . but we are a part of the Family. It is because of Spiritual Circumcisions that renders a person independent of:

Galatians 3:28 KJV - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

People get too wrapped up in the body . . . what it looks like . . . what its heritage is . . . where it comes from. But that is ridiculous, for we are first Spirits, but trapped within this vessel which is destined to death and decay. Only our body is male or female, Greek or Jew . . . but our Spirits are none of these things. So, we do not judge by outward appearances, but by testing the Spirit within a person, for there are many deceived teachers and prophets in the world.

I would say those in Christ are circumcised in the heart by the Spirit in rebirth.
Beautiful!

But to me it's just circumcision in Christ, not a spiritual circumcision (but it's ok to say "spiritual" if you want).
But it [is] Spiritual. Just as the Lord Spiritually applied a Curse to all of humanity, including creation, He can just as easily and quickly remove that Curse. The Curse is not physical, but it is a Spiritual "policy" applied to all who have yet to be released from that Curse. The releasing of the Curse does not change us physically, but emotionally. Being released of the Curse allows us to live outside of the Confusion of that all Curses issue. These are Spiritual actions performed by the Lord, for to be released of this Curse does not require any physical action, but a Spiritual action . . . the releasing and disassociation of the Curse.

Deuteronomy 28:20 NET - "The LORD will send on you a curse, confusing you and opposing you in everything you undertake until you are destroyed and quickly perish because of the evil of your deeds, in that you have forsaken me."

Duet 28:20 shows the desperate need to be released from such a Curse, for until then, we have absolutely no hope for anything. Instead, destruction is promised if the release of the Lord's Curse does not take place.

Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

And yes, I realize that the NLT is the only translation that translates Gal 3:13 as it does . . . and their translation is consistent with the True Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is that He alone removes the Curse from a person's unregenerated heart.

Thanks for reading . . . thanks for letting me exhaust your ear. :)
 
Nov 21, 2018
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#17
Genesis 17:14 NLT - "Any male who fails to be circumcised will be cut off from the covenant family for breaking the covenant."

Again, Genesis 17 is where physical circumcision is instituted, and it represents the Spiritual Circumcision (the releasing of the Curse of the Lord) that Abraham and all his "decendents," even those who are "grafted in," which is what happens in any family where two families are combined. Gentiles are like step-brothers and sisters in the Circumcision Family . . . but we are a part of the Family. It is because of Spiritual Circumcisions that renders a person independent of:

Galatians 3:28 KJV - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
It's okay, but we have difference of understanding concerning "circumcision." It represents the works of the Law, which is how the people of God obtained blessing; through works of obedience to show they loved God. Now it is the works of the Spirit using the Life of the Lord Jesus (Col 3:4) that we are in the son-ship of Christ. Everything that had to do with circumcision was of the Jew, which of course is now "disannulled" (Heb 7:18; 10:9). I believe "circumcision made without hands" (Col 2:11) is a metaphor for "through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13), which is the same for "in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh" (Col 2:11).

To me, Jews and Gentiles believing in Christ are no more circumcised or uncircumcised, just sons and daughters in Jesus.
 
Feb 20, 2021
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#18
It represents the works of the Law, which is how the people of God obtained blessing; through works of obedience to show they loved God.
Yes, we definitely have a difference of understanding on what True Circumcision represents. The Bible makes is clear:

Romans 2:29 NLT - "No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."

The "change" came in the form of the following words:

Genesis 17:1 NLT - "When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am El-Shaddai--'God Almighty.' Serve me faithfully and live a blameless life."

God wasn't requesting that Abraham live in these ways, but was instilling them. What happened in Genesis 17 is the very Blessing that God Promised to all of his descendants . . . a Father to many Nations, and not just the Nation of Israel.

Either way, it would be a pleasure to sit down and chat with you about Biblical matters. I'm sure that I would learn a lot as I ask a lot of questions. :)
 
Nov 21, 2018
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#19
Romans 2:29 NLT - "No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."
Yes, we could probably learn from one another! Concerning the "True Jew," it is a Jew, who like Nathanael believed in God, and was an "Israelite indeed." John Gill says "that faith does not depend upon circumcision, but upon the heart: he that believes not as he should, circumcision does not make him a Jew; and he that believes as he ought, he indeed is a Jew, though he is not circumcised."
:)