These "truths" are "self evident", aren't they?

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Redwood

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2017
25
11
3
#1
The most fundamental statement that defines the American concept of freedom was signed by 56 men on day one of the United States of America (7-4-1776).

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

To paraphrase, our rights come from God, not from government.

If God is the source of our rights, who is the source of our responsibilities?

The Declaration of Independence was written by a five man committee more than ten years before the Constitutional Convention of 1787, or the adoption of the Bill of Rights in 1791.

How much meaning does the Constitution have when the "self evident truths" of America's original founding document are no longer considered to be self evident?

Is it possible for a modern government to legislate in favor of the truths that seemed to be so apparent and so obvious to the founders of this country?

It is not the responsibility of government to force people to subscribe to any belief system. There are many responsibilities that citizens must take upon themselves if there is to be peace and prosperity.

What about the concept of "separation of church and state"? Should this so called "wall of separation" be used as a tool to bring people closer to the "self evident truths" that America was founded on, or should the "wall" be used to drive people away from beliefs that many consider to be archaic?

Is there really a "wall of separation" between church and state?

Yes and no.

The "separation of church and state" language is not found in the Constitution (or in any of the subsequent amendments), but it has been used as a metaphor for the "establishment of religion" clause of the first amendment of the Bill of Rights by the U.S.Supreme Court and by at least one president (notably Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Connecticut Baptist Association and their concern about a rumor that the Congregationalist denomination was to become the national religion). Tom said "no, can't happen, Government can't interfere with freedom of religion."

Where did "separation of church and state" originate? The founder of Rhode Island Colony (Roger Williams) preached a sermon in 1644 that contained those words. Williams was a Baptist preacher who had been persecuted in England and in Massachusettes Bay Colony for preaching about religious freedom. The church in the old country did not like him and neither did the Puritans in Massachusettes. Roger Williams wanted to start a community where people are free to believe what they want. The idea stuck.

The concepts of "self evident truths", "separation of church and state", and "freedom of religion"; where are they today?

Is it still "self evident" that our fundamental rights are from God ( and not from the Great Ivory Tower in D.C.)? Is it still self evident that our most fundamental responsibilities are to the same Creator who gave us our rights?

Can America sustain itself without an understanding of, and an appreciation for the "self evident truths" that founded our Republic in the first place?

These "truths" are still "self evident", aren't they?
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#2
I've never held those "truths" as truths. Probably because in the first draft it was "life, liberty, and property," but they kicked out "property" when they chose "eminent domain." So much for "truth," huh?

Because of that, I really don't know if we have any rights whatsoever. Has the Lord ever given us rights? I can't think of any.

There was a purpose to the revolution we had against England. And, because we were 13 colonies all against one another over religious beliefs, the founding fathers worked long and hard to unite us. They did so by avoiding many things -- God, rights, slavery, where women fit.

Granted, King James III was a suit short of a full deck, so we really did have to leave, but so much was sacrificed to do that. The Constitution was also ushering in everything necessary for a civil war to break out. It did, but didn't happen until the Founding Fathers were long dead.

I love this land we live in, but we were born myopic, and still live that way.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,530
113
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#3
Anyway you look at "freedom of religion" and "separation of church and state," the way they practiced, are a double standard. On the one hand, we oppress anyone running for any high office that is not a Christian. We do that with our vote. I remember when JFK ran for president: He was the first Catholic and almost didn't get elected because of it. Am I saying the double standard is a bad thing? No, on the contrary; the Christians voting has kept this country from going down the tubes.

As the population of our country becomes less Christian, it will be harder to keep the politicians reined in. Proverbs 28:15,16: "As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people. The prince that wanteth understanding is also a great oppressor: but he that hateth covetousness shall prolong his days."
:cool:
 

Redwood

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2017
25
11
3
#4
I've never held those "truths" as truths. Probably because in the first draft it was "life, liberty, and property," but they kicked out "property" when they chose "eminent domain." So much for "truth," huh?

Because of that, I really don't know if we have any rights whatsoever. Has the Lord ever given us rights? I can't think of any.

There was a purpose to the revolution we had against England. And, because we were 13 colonies all against one another over religious beliefs, the founding fathers worked long and hard to unite us. They did so by avoiding many things -- God, rights, slavery, where women fit.

Granted, King James III was a suit short of a full deck, so we really did have to leave, but so much was sacrificed to do that. The Constitution was also ushering in everything necessary for a civil war to break out. It did, but didn't happen until the Founding Fathers were long dead.

I love this land we live in, but we were born myopic, and still live that way.
Has the Lord ever given us any rights? Good question.

Don't know if my thoughts are relevant to the question, but it seems that Israel's rejection of the structure that was in place when Samuel was Judge may give us a clue. They rejected a system that allowed a relatively fair amount of personal freedom in favor of the rule of a king, even after they were told that a king would strip them of their liberty and their possessions.

The Lord told Samuel, "they have not rejected you, they have rejected Me".

They got their way (as opposed to the Lord's way), they got their ruler, and paid the price.
 
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breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
764
113
39
Australia
#5
Regarding church and state, you'd find in England at those times when and before people migrated to America that with each new reign that the country was told that they are now, '''this sect of christianity' and that's what the people were to practice (i believe). Looks like a part of what the first colonies to America were doing is to get away from that, or otherwise it's an ideal.
 

Redwood

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2017
25
11
3
#6
Regarding church and state, you'd find in England at those times when and before people migrated to America that with each new reign that the country was told that they are now, '''this sect of christianity' and that's what the people were to practice (i believe). Looks like a part of what the first colonies to America were doing is to get away from that, or otherwise it's an ideal.
There was to be no American equivalent of the Church of England, at least not on the federal level. After the colonies became states, there were individual states that had their own official "state religion" for many years after the Constitution and Bill of Rights were ratified (up until about 1820 or thereabouts).
 
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