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K

keeth

Guest
#361
#361
Now I will say this, I do not agree with my SDA friends on the point of Christ being an angel, Jesus Christ was the Creator...

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

He was God Almighty, the Great I AM...

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Christ was God, is God and always will be God.
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SDA's do not believe that Christ was ever an angel. He was, is, and will always be God. Some of His titles or names during to OT include the word angel.
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#362
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
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#362
keeth said:
SDA's do not believe that Christ was ever an angel. He was, is, and will always be God. Some of His titles or names during to OT include the word angel.
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Sorry, my mistake. I do sincerely apologize.
 
K

keeth

Guest
#363
#363
Jimmydiggs, here we are. I am an SDA, instead of sending people elsewhere to read the words of others, bring forth your accusations to be examined here. I don't have time to go all the way back to the beginning, but will be glad to examine your accusations and reply to the same if you will state them here.
 
K

keeth

Guest
#364
#364
john832 said:
Sorry, my mistake. I do sincerely apologize.
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No biggy, its an easy conclusion to come to without an SDA to correct it. We are constantly accused of this, but it is not true.
 
J

john832

Senior Member
#365
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#365
keeth said:
No biggy, its an easy conclusion to come to without an SDA to correct it. We are constantly accused of this, but it is not true.
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We have some things in common, the belief that the Law is still in effect, the seventh day Sabbath and some other things but we do differ on some major doctrines.

the interesting thing is we can still have a friendly discussion. I think that goes to illustrate this...

Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
 
K

keeth

Guest
#366
#366
john832 said:
We have some things in common, the belief that the Law is still in effect, the seventh day Sabbath and some other things but we do differ on some major doctrines.

the interesting thing is we can still have a friendly discussion. I think that goes to illustrate this...

Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
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Agreed. God Himself has granted all liberty to believe as they wish, who are we to be offended by those who choose to believe differently than we do. Honest debate with pure intentions is healthy and makes us dig deeper into the knowledge of God through His word. We should be glad for the opportunity do defend the truth against error, or be truly corrected ourselves if we have misunderstood or applied God's word. In any case, there is always more for the student of scripture to learn. I've learned far more entering into debate with those of contrasting views, and having to work out and compare all with the word of God, than I ever have or will sitting in a pew listening to a preacher of my denomination preaching to his quire. Faith that is not tested and proved remains weak.
 
K

kingkong

Guest
#367
#367
yeah like the arch angel michael or something apparently thats meant to be Christ
 
K

keeth

Guest
#368
#368
The biblical reasoning leading to the conclusion that Michael was a pre-incarnate title of Christ, was around long before there was an SDA or JW. This conclusion was arrived at by many long before either existed. Emphasis in the following is mine.

[FONT=&quot]There remains still one passage ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Jude 9[/FONT][FONT=&quot]); comp. ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#2Pe ii:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) in which we are told that "Michael the archangel, when, contending with the Devil, he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." The allusion seems to be to a Jewish legend attached to ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#De xxxiv:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). The Targum of Jonathan attributes the burial of Moses to the hands of the angels of God, and particularly of the archangel Michael, as the guardian of Israel. Later traditions (see Œcumen. in Jud. cap. i.) set forth how Satan disputed the burial, claiming for himself the dead body because of the blood of the Egyptian ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Ex ii:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) which was on Moses’ hands. The reply of Michael is evidently taken from ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Zec iii:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), where, on Satan’s "resisting" Joshua the high-priest, because of the filthy garments of his iniquity, Jehovah, or "the angel of Jehovah" (see vol. i. p. 95 b.), said unto Satan, "Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?" The spirit of the answer is the reference to God’s mercy alone for our justification, and the leaving of all vengeance and rebuke to Him; and in this spirit it is quoted by the Apostle. {a} [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Rabbinical traditions about Michael are very numerous. They oppose him constantly to Sammael, the accuser and enemy of Israel, as disputing for the soul of Moses; as bringing the ram the substitute for Isaac, which Sammael sought to keep back, etc., etc.: they give him the title of the "great high- priest in heaven," as well as that of the "great prince and conqueror;" and finally lay it down that "wherever Michael is said to have appeared, there the glory of the Shechinah is intended." It is clear that the sounder among them, in making such use of the name, intended to personify the Divine Power, and typify the Messiah (see Schoettgen, Hor. Hebr. i. 1079, 1119, ii. 8, 15, ed. Dresd. 1742). But these traditions, as usual, are erected on very slender Scriptural foundation. A. B [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]{a}[/FONT][FONT=&quot] From unwillingness to acknowledge a reference to a mere Jewish tradition (in spite of vv. 14, 15), some have supposed St. Jude’s reference to be to ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Zec iii:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), and explained the "body of Moses" to be the Jewish, as the "body of Christ" is the Christian, Church. The whole explanation is forced; but the analogy on which the last part is based is absolutely unwarrantable; and the very attempt to draw it shows a forgetfulness of the true meaning of that communion with Christ, which is implied by the latter expression. ( Smiths Revised Bible Dictionary)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ARCHANGEL[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This world is only twice used in the Bible, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]#1Th 4:16 Jude 1:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. In this last passage it is applied to Michael, who, in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Da 10:13,21 12:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot], is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Re 12:7-9[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as the leader of an angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant. ( American Tract Society Bible Dictionary)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]11) "The archangel" ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Jude 1:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Probably also the unnamed archangel of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]#1Th 4:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is Michael. In the Old Testament he is mentioned by name only in Daniel. He is "one of the chief princes" ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Da 10:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), the "prince" of Israel ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Da 10:21[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), "the great prince" ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Da 12:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]); perhaps also "the prince of the host" ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Da 8:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). In all these passages Michael appears as the heavenly patron and champion of Israel; as the watchful guardian of the people of God against all foes earthly or devilish. In the uncanonical apocalyptic writings, however, Jewish angelology is further developed. In them Michael frequently appears and excretes functions similar to those which are ascribed to him in Daniel. He is the first of the "four presences that stand before God"—Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel or Phanuel (En 9:1; 40:9). In other apocryphal books and even elsewhere in En, the number of archangels is given as 7 (En 20:1-7; Tobit 12:15; compare also [/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Re 8:2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Among the many characterizations of Michael the following may be noted: He is "the merciful and long-suffering" (En 40:9; 68:2,3), "the mediator and intercessor" (Ascension of Isaiah, Latin version 9:23; Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Levi 5; Da 6). It is he who opposed the Devil in a dispute concerning Moses’ body ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Jude 1:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). This passage, according to most modern authorities, is derived from the apocryphal Assumption of Moses (see Charles’ edition, 105-10). It is Michael also who leads the angelic armies in the war in heaven against "the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan" ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Re 12:7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]). According to Charles, the supplanting of the "child" by the archangel is an indication of the Jewish origin of this part of the book. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]#Re 12[/FONT][FONT=&quot], but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn’s BD). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]John A. Lees (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)[/FONT]
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M

Mitspa

Guest
#369
#369
keeth said:
Jimmydiggs, here we are. I am an SDA, instead of sending people elsewhere to read the words of others, bring forth your accusations to be examined here. I don't have time to go all the way back to the beginning, but will be glad to examine your accusations and reply to the same if you will state them here.
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Do you believe Ellen G white is a prophet?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#370
#370
E.G. White prophesied the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 and 1851 : "Now time is almost finished, (1851) and what we have been 6 years in learning they will have to learn in months." (Early Writings, p.57).
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#371
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
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#371
Been a while since I have seen this thread, anyway keep it bible based please, you don't know anywhere near enough about Ellen White or what she says to make your accusations.

Don't you know you will be judged as you judge others, So think about how much you really have studied and read Her writings in context and then ask yourself would you be willing to be judged as you have her.

Reading little bits and posting parts of quotes from large writings is false testimony.

Please keep it to the Bible.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#372
#372
gotime said:
Been a while since I have seen this thread, anyway keep it bible based please, you don't know anywhere near enough about Ellen White or what she says to make your accusations.

Don't you know you will be judged as you judge others, So think about how much you really have studied and read Her writings in context and then ask yourself would you be willing to be judged as you have her.

Reading little bits and posting parts of quotes from large writings is false testimony.

Please keep it to the Bible.
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She is the Prophet of this whole false religious system...what ever the SDA church is, its based on her false teachings which are still taught in this group. Just like the Mormons have Joseph Smith the SDA have ellen g and you cant understand the group and its errors until you understand the false prophet that built the whole false system.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#373
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#373
Mitspa said:
She is the Prophet of this whole false religious system...what ever the SDA church is, its based on her false teachings which are still taught in this group. Just like the Mormons have Joseph Smith the SDA have ellen g and you cant understand the group and its errors until you understand the false prophet that built the whole false system.
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Sorry but you are wrong, Every single thing we teach is found in the bible. In fact what you have just said proves that you have not studied or read her writings in context. So I personally will not discourse Her any more with you because you have no idea what you are talking about.

You use Her as a straw man argument to distract from real bible study.

You want to talk about teachings of the bible then get out your bible. more than happy to address what the Word of God says.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#374
#374
Ellen G white teaches satan is at the throne of God!

"Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them (Christians) look up to the throne, and pray, 'Father, give us Thy Spirit.' Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence ..." (Early Writings, p. 56).

So when you ask the Father for the Holy Spirit...satan really gives you a evil spirit. According to the "prophet" of the SDA church. She saw this on one of her trips to heaven... This is who the SDA church is!
 
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JustinFromTwinCities

Guest
#375
#375
Mitspa said:
She is the Prophet of this whole false religious system...what ever the SDA church is, its based on her false teachings which are still taught in this group. Just like the Mormons have Joseph Smith the SDA have ellen g and you cant understand the group and its errors until you understand the false prophet that built the whole false system.
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Yes, seriously guys come on. I sat here and read nearly this entire thread and this is what I have to say. Laodicea, gotime and all the other SDAs here, you guys are very knowledgeable when it comes to the Bible. And your passion and dedication is amazing. But this whole thread is misleading. The SDA church exists simply because of its founders. Founders who are very easy proven to be in error, yet the entire thread you refuse to delve into what they have said and analyze it. The thing is, we don't need to "only stick to the Bible" because the Bible teaches us how to properly analyze anything and everything to determine it's merit.

If you care nothing for Ellen White and the rest of the founders and what they said and are unwilling to defend it, then guess what..... You are not an SDAs. Period. And that is OK, nobody is making you associate with that group. You are free to believe and follow your faith however you chose as a normal Bible believing Christian. Just sharing a few views with a certain denomination does not automatically make you a member of that denomination. Let's either involve the statements and claims of the founders or can you just please come to the realization that you in fact are in no way SDAs.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#376
#376
gotime said:
Sorry but you are wrong, Every single thing we teach is found in the bible. In fact what you have just said proves that you have not studied or read her writings in context. So I personally will not discourse Her any more with you because you have no idea what you are talking about.

You use Her as a straw man argument to distract from real bible study.

You want to talk about teachings of the bible then get out your bible. more than happy to address what the Word of God says.
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Of course you don't want people to know what you guys really teach and every false group claims to teach the bible...Just like Joseph smith! Your group was started by a clearly false prophet and a very wicked and evil person. Her teachings are still the foundation of all your doctrines...
 
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JustinFromTwinCities

Guest
#377
#377
I might as well start a thread titled, "I am a Christian ask me..." and then within the thread say "Let's keep it strictly to the Old Testament, I am not going to discuss the teachings of Christ". I love you guys, I mean no disrespect, but that is how I see this whole thing.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#378
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#378
Mitspa said:
Of course you don't want people to know what you guys really teach and every false group claims to teach the bible...Just like Joseph smith! Your group was started by a clearly false prophet and a very wicked and evil person. Her teachings are still the foundation of all your doctrines...
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Did you not read what I wrote? I have no problems speaking of what I believe and teach. But lets use our bibles to do so.

I find it hard to understand why a person who does not believe that Ellen was a prophet and professes to believe in the bible refuses to talk about the Scriptures and wont stop talking about the prophet.

Yet here I am trying to speak about scripture and you keep on about a prophet you don't believe in.

Seventh Day Adventists openly teach their beliefs, you can get official books that teach what we believe and why. We do public seminars for all to come and see from the bible what we believe and why. SO you are wrong we want people to know what we believe.
 
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gotime

Senior Member
#379
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
#379
JustinFromTwinCities said:
I might as well start a thread titled, "I am a Christian ask me..." and then within the thread say "Let's keep it strictly to the Old Testament, I am not going to discuss the teachings of Christ". I love you guys, I mean no disrespect, but that is how I see this whole thing.
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If you read the first post I stipulated that this was a Bible thread. so not really seeing your point sorry.

Everything We teach we get from the bible, this thread is about the bible is that so wrong?
 
J

JustinFromTwinCities

Guest
#380
#380
gotime said:
If you read the first post I stipulated that this was a Bible thread. so not really seeing your point sorry.

Everything We teach we get from the bible, this thread is about the bible is that so wrong?
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No, that is awesome. But why even consider yourself a Seventh Day Adventist then? The whole defining thing that makes an SDA an SDA is that they believe Ellen White was used as a vessel of the Holy Spirit to directly communicate the Word of God, a new Word of God, a new revelation to all us foolish people who have lost our way.
 
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