Faith Alone?

#241 Dan
Posted by Plaintalk--Jesus said it is not enough to say “Lord, Lord,” that is to claim to believe in the Lord, faith requires obedience. (Matt. 7: 21)
Dan says, “Obedience simply demonstrates that we have faith, but we are saved through faith/believing in Him prior to accomplishing obedience/works afterwards.”

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. (Matt. 7: 21)
A straightforward reading of this verse tells us that doing the will of the Father precedes entering the kingdom, being saved. This is confirmed by Hebrews 5: 9 which states, [SUP]9 [/SUP]And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
Yes, obedience demonstrates that we have faith but it does much more than that. God tells us that when we obey, our faith is considered by Him, not man, to be perfected or complete. (Gen. 22: 12; James 2: 22) In the second chapter of Acts, IMO the 3,000 believed when they heard the message. (Acts 2: 37) This is shown by the fact they were pierced to the heart and asked what shall we do? Peter said, Repent , and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2: 38) They were not saved by their faith prior to their obedience as they were still in their sins; they had not received the Holy Spirit; they had not been born of water and Spirit. When they obeyed Jesus Christ, they were sprinkled with the blood of Christ. (1 Peter 1: 2) The obedience to the works of faith: calling on the name of the Lord, repentance, baptism and confession of Jesus before men, precede salvation
Those that obey that form of teaching---death---burial---and resurrection---are freed from sin. (Rom. 6: 17, 18)
Those that do not know God and do not obey the gospel await eternal destruction. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9)
Those that know God keep His commandments. (1 John 2: 3)
Those who do not love do not know God. (1 John 4: 8)
Those who do not obey the truth will receive wrath and indignation. (Romans 2: 8)
Yes, obedience is much more than a demonstration of faith. God bless.

Many works salvationists merely "claim" to believe in the Lord, yet what they really believe in is "their works" (Matthew 7:22). Faith requires that we trust in Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which follows is works. So what is the will of the Father for us in receiving eternal life? John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Salvation by works is not the will of the Father plain talk. If you don't believe in Him for eternal life, then your so called obedience is disobedience and unbelief, as we see in Matthew 7:22-23.

Amen! We are saved through faith/believing in Him and obedience which follows saving faith in Christ is works and we are not saved by works, but FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

And what is the will of the Father that precedes entering the kingdom, being saved? *Once again and please pay close attention - *John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Salvation by works is not the will of the Father, as many people will find out the hard way! (Matthew 7:22-23).

So who obeys Him plain talk? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Campbellites, Roman Catholics and Mormons. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him "after they have been saved through faith" by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. Unbelievers obey their church, not Christ. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

I already explained this to you NUMEROUS times. I feel like I'm talking to the wall! Abraham was saved and justified (in a legal sense=accounted as righteous) when he believed God (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) many years BEFORE he offered up Isaac on the altar when he was said to be justified by works (in a declarative sense-shown to be righteous) and his faith was said to be perfected. Faith perfected by works simply means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT ABRAHAM WAS NOT SAVED UNTIL HE OFFERED UP ISAAC ON THE ALTAR. *He was not saved by works (Romans 4:2-3). Again, by you saying that Abraham was NOT saved UNTIL his faith was perfected when he offered up Isaac on the altar many years later, you are denying what God said in Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:2-3 and are also teaching salvation by works.

Of course, Acts 2:38, your pet verse. Again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. So what kind of faith preceded their repentance in Acts 2:37? Their faith at that point was only "mental assent" that "Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him." That is not saving belief/faith yet. They still needed to repent "change their minds" and "trust exclusively in Christ for salvation" and so do you. In verse 40, they heard more from Peter and in verse 41, when they gladly received his word through repentance/faith, the end result was saving faith in Christ.

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

When they obeyed Jesus Christ through repentance/faith, they were sprinkled with the blood of Christ BEFORE water baptism.

You are completely mixed up. We call on the name of the Lord when we receive Him through faith. This is not an additional requirement that we accomplish after we have been saved through faith. Repentance in receiving salvation precedes saving faith in Christ. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him alone for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

"Became obedient to the heart to that form of teaching" does not equate to salvation by works. Before they obeyed that form of teaching by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16), they had been slaves to sin. In verse 16, there is a contrast between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness.. *Not believes "plus works unto righteousness."

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.. (Romans 1:16). We can plainly see what the gospel is now how do we obey it? Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Those who obey the gospel have chosen to believe the gospel. Those who refuse to believe the gospel have not obeyed the gospel. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. Nothing here about salvation by works. Sorry to burst your bubble. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the all-sufficient means of their salvation. Praise God!

1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, (already know Him/are already saved) *demonstrative evidence* - if we keep His commandments. Believers keep His commandments BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. You seem to have a problem confusing DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. We demonstrate that we know God by our love.

Those who do not obey the truth is descriptive of those who are lost. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, "patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality" (vs. 7) everyone who does good (vs. 10). Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness (vs. 8) everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel. Multiple acts of obedience/good works which follow are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine saving faith/knowing God, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. Obedience "apart from faith in Christ" is not obedience. Just ask these many people in Matthew 7:22-23. We are not saved by works plain talk, plain and simple. I hope and pray that you will repent and believe the gospel. Please prayerfully consider the truth and God bless.

Amen!...good defense of the gospel of the grace of Christ!..the "works" mindset give mental assent to being saved by grace because they have to..it's in the scriptures....everyone knows that... BUT:

But in their minds they still have the idea of them having to do something to maintain salvation.

It's in growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus that we "become" outwardly who we already are in our inner man of the heart in Christ..the new creation in Christ.

If one would just put all the scriptures together you would see that a sinner is DEAD in sin. HELPLESS to come to
God and repent, believe and obey; It is the power and mercy of God,s GRACE that transforms us into a holy saint, then we have the ability to repent trust and obey for eternal life. Rom.6:22 says it all. "But now having been freed from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness and the end, eternal life." You will see that God's sanctification comes before God's Justification.

Yes.GOD provides the Grace and the Faith.

Noah built the ark by faith alone? No, it took a hundred years to build the ark. He put faith into action- because faith without works is dead.

The fruit of us resting in Christ's finished work will manifest outwardly in good works directed by the Holy Spirit within us.

There are people here who have left the faith, though talk like they still believe.
Now they will claim they represent faith alone, but it is a different faith than ours.

For them there are three questions

Why does anyone go to the lake of fire?
How do they know if they sin?
Who has been forgiven of their sin?

The answers will surprise you

Why does anyone go to the lake of fire?
Deeds not done in Christ

How do they know if they sin?
They do not, because to be convicted of sin is only by Satan.

Who has been forgiven of their sin?
Every person since the death of Christ on the cross.


So do not believe what they are necessarily saying because it appears to be something different in meaning than we would accept. They believe we are "religious" and evil.

They believe unless we believe like them all our deeds are evil.

Conversation therefore becomes weird because the basic assumptions are different because our faiths are different.
All their preachers will propogate a new language and view of scripture and our normal christian terms.

We are most assuredly the enemy. They would call christians to repent of their ideas of faith not of sin, so they can be converted to their view of spirituality.

Amen. ..........

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. Building the ark was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. "Faith without works is dead" does not mean that we are saved by works and it also does not mean that works are the source of life for faith either. If someone says-claims they have faith but they produce no works to back up their claim (James 2:14) then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/a dead faith and not a living faith.

Amen!....Noah's name means = "rest"...how ironic1..

I would argue the difference is in the dispensations. Noah did not have the righteousness of Christ. Noah's faith in what God told him to do was justified through his obedience, thus Noah was made right with God. After the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we are justified by the faith of Christ through His obedience on the cross. No amount of works can justify me. A person lived by his faith in the Old Testament but now "I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

#241 D,an
Dan says, “John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Salvation by works is NOT the will of the Father. *When will you believe?”
The Scriptures often tell us salvation is by faith but never do they say that salvation is by faith alone, instead they list contributing factors that are also said to save or lead to salvation; these include: calling on the name of the Lord. repentance, baptism, confessing Jesus, obedience, hope and perseversnce.
The Scriptures tell us that we are cleansed and purified by faith but never do they say that purification is by faith alone, instead they list contributing factors that also cleanse us and free us from sin: these include repentance, baptism, obedience and the blood of Christ.
The Scriptures tell us that we are justified by faith and they do say that justification is not by faith alone, they tell us we are justified by words, works, grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus and His blood.
The Scriptures tell us that we receive the Holy Spirit by faith, but they never say that we receive the Holy Spirit by faith alone, instead they list other contributing factors: repentance and baptism and obedience.
The Scriptures tell us we have life by faith in God, as John 6: 40 states, but they never say we have life by faith alone, instead they tell us that we have life by knowing God (knowing God entails love and keeping His commandments), love, repentance, baptism and in Christ.
Your consistent failure to acknowledge these factors and your constant attempt to rewrite Scripture to harmonize them with your “faith alone” persuasion and your inability to distinguish works based on faith from works based on performance, greatly reduces your credibility. God bless

Amen! Unfortunately, I see that you still REFUSE to BELIEVE.

The Scriptures often tell us that salvation is by faith, but never by faith AND works. You remain confused about what you call contributing factors. We call on the name of the Lord when we come to faith in Christ. Those who have placed their faith in Christ alone for salvation and are saved are not still in need of calling on the name of the Lord in order to become saved. Repentance precedes believe/believe the gospel/faith in Christ for salvation (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15; Acts 20;21). Those who have placed their faith in Christ alone for salvation have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.

Water baptism FOLLOWS repentance/faith/salvation (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18). The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart (together - Romans 10:8). Notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Believes unto righteousness and confession made unto salvation are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. The obedience that saves is the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/good works that we accomplish AFTER we have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Saved by hope (Romans 8:24) does not mean that if our faith is genuine, but we don't have enough hope, we won't be saved. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. Strong #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. Genuine hope is another aspect of faith, not an additional requirement to become saved after faith. If we have saving faith then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7). Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. Genuine faith endures and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

Acts 15:9 says that hearts are purified by faith “apart from additions or modifications” faith IN CHRIST alone. The moment that we place our faith "IN CHRIST alone for salvation" our hearts are cleansed/purified. You don’t need to "add" the word "alone" next to faith in Acts 15:9 in order to figure out that the word faith “stands alone” (apart from additions or modifications) in connection with hearts cleansed/purified. Repentance precedes faith/cleansed/purified and cleansed/purified is SIGNIFIED, but not procured in water baptism. Obeying the truth/obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel is s synonym for faith. The blood of Christ is the means of cleansed/purified and faith is the instrumental means by which cleansed/purified is applied. Faith is our part and the blood of Christ is God’s part.

We are justified by faith IN CHRIST alone in a legal sense “faith is accounted for righteousness/God imputes righteousness apart from works" - Romans 4:2-6 and we are justified by words, works in a declarative sense - “shown to be righteous” - Matthew 12:37; James 2:14-24. *Grace, Christ's finished work of redemption/His blood is God's part.

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.”

*In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

*You need to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth, but first, you need to repent and believe the gospel.

In Acts 11:17, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ “not believed plus something else” BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Ephesians 1:13, we read that after hearing the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, having believed “not believed plus something else” we were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. Those who receive the Holy Spirit have obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Obey the gospel/believe the gospel is a synonym for faith and yes, faith IN CHRIST alone, which means the moment that we place our faith in CHRIST ALONE for salvation, we receive the Holy Spirit, our hearts are cleansed/purified and we are saved. *Not faith alone “in the sense” that we never repented or we did not obey when we chose to believe the gospel or that grace, Christ's finished work of redemption/the blood of Christ was not involved on God’s part. You are really confused!

Those who believe in Him have eternal life. Not those who believe in works instead of believing in Him. Show me just one verse in the Bible that says we are saved by faith AND WORKS or justified by faith AND WORKS. You won’t find it! The term “know" (John 17:3) implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge, which begins the moment that we place our faith IN CHRIST alone for salvation. Love and keeping His commandments is the DEMONSTRATIVE EVIDENCE that we know God. Repentance precedes faith/cleansed/purified/salvation and water baptism FOLLOWS faith/cleansed/purified/salvation. I see that you are still confusing DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture. When will you BELIEVE?

Your consistent failure to acknowledge the factors that I thoroughly explained to you numerous times and your constant attempt to distort and pervert passages of Scripture in a vain effort to “patch together” your “works based false gospel” and your inability to rightly divide the word of truth and properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture greatly reduces your credibility. Please prayerfully consider the truth, continue to seek for the truth and God bless. I will continue to pray for you.

God has ALWAYS saved HIS ELECT the same way: By Grace,thru Faith, unto good Works. Peter, you are so right they have left "THE FAITH" of GOD.!

I fail to see how you can have faith if you think you are taking a risk.

Agreed, but in our case, Jesus Christ did the good works on the cross.

Jesus earned our salvation by His good ,sinless, life. and death; and Res..

Romans 4:1-3
King James Version(KJV)


1.) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

3.) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
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James 2:14-26
King James Version(KJV)

14.) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15.) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16.) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17.) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18.) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19.) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20.) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21.) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22.) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23.) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24.) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25.) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26.) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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Would you agree,that Paul Is talking about how GOD looks at Faith and James Is talking to men about whether or not their faith Is true?