TEXTUS RECEPTUS AND KING JAMES VERSION VS MODERN TRANSLATIONS

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Feb 1, 2014
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#1
Here's an interesting comment by Daniel Wallace, who has written books this topic and is a Greek scholar:

“Multiple translations don’t make a text more or less reliable. But it’s interesting that there’s kind of an underlying assumption when people make that statement and it feels something like this: well, the Bible has been translated and once it got translated, people have revised the translation without going back to look at those early manuscripts. And so, I thought that when I was in junior high school but I got past that relatively early. The reality is that the King James... Bible, when it was translated in 1611, it was essentially based on the New Testament was essentially based on seven Greek New Testament manuscripts, the earliest of which went back to the 11th century. We still have those manuscripts and we have almost 6,000 more manuscripts. So, we have almost a thousand times as many manuscripts as the King James New Testament was based on and our earliest don’t go back to the 11th century but so far as what’s been published, they go back to the second century. So they go back almost a thousand years earlier. So as time goes on, we’re not actually getting farther and farther away from the original text, we’re getting closer and closer.”
~ Daniel Wallace

The essence of the remarks is this: the King James Version is a translation based on the Textus Receptus New Testament, compiled by Erasmus and modified by others (Beza, Stephanus). It was based on relatively recent manuscript, none older than the 11th century. Modern translations are largely based on the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, which considers all of these previous manuscripts plus almost 1000 times as many more. And, these manuscripts are older.

The reasoning that the modern translations are more accurate is that the other source manuscripts are closer to the originals, which are called "autographs", and therefore don't contain copying errors that the more recent manuscripts have. These copying errors result from things such as marginal notes of the manuscript owners, or unintentional scribal errors.

As you can see I don't buy into the KJV Only argument. I learned about the Bible initially with a KJV, and I don't disrespect the translators. However, I favor the ESV or NASB or NIV above it.

And, if you research the claims that KJV Only people make, they are based on misinformation. Let me give you an example.

Biblica translated the NIV. Biblica licensed the right to publish it in the USA to Zondervan. Zondervan is owned by Harper Collins who also owns a company that publishes the Satanic Bible and another company that publishes the Joys of Gay Sex.

Often KJV Only people use this vague connection to claim that the NIV is Satanic. One can easily see that the translator is Biblica, and not Zondervan, and while Zondervan owns the right to publish it in the USA, there is no direct connection like KJV Only people claim.

Another common claim is that a NIV translator was a lesbian. She actually was not a translator; she was a stylist who polished the expression of the language, and her work was reviewed by the committee. Additionally, they ignore the fact that Erasmus, the Textus Receptus author, was a Roman Catholic priest who wrote letters to a younger man that strongly indicate that he was attempting to seduce him, and was miffed because the younger man did not return his affection.

It is a very effective debate tool to take the standards (weights and measures) of the opposing side and apply the same standards to them. Often this reveals the weakness of their arguments and propaganda.

These are just two examples of the double standards.

:)

I will acknowledge that the KJV sounds more majestic, especially when read by a Brit like my friend prodigal in the Bible Study room :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,479
12,947
113
#2
MEANINGLESS AND IRRELEVANT INTRODUCTION
Multiple translations don’t make a text more or less reliable. But it’s interesting that there’s kind of an underlying assumption when people make that statement and it feels something like this: well, the Bible has been translated and once it got translated, people have revised the translation without going back to look at those early manuscripts. And so, I thought that when I was in junior high school but I got past that relatively early.

MYTH #1. ERASMUS WAS AN IGNORAMUS

The reality is that the King James... Bible, when it was translated in 1611, it was essentially based on the New Testament was essentially based on seven Greek New Testament manuscripts, the earliest of which went back to the 11th century.

REBUTTAL TO MYTH #1

This incredibly erroneous statement has been repeated so frequently by textual critics and modern version defenders that it is commonly accepted as truth. While it is not exactly surprising to see New Evangelicals like D.A. Carson fall for such things, we have seen that some fundamental Baptists are repeating the same tired errors. If scholarly fundamental Baptists of our day would spend at least as much time studying the writings of Bible-believing textual scholars such as John Burgon, Edward Miller, and E. F. Hills, who believe in infallible inspiration and divine preservation, as they do studying the writings of Modernists and New Evangelicals such as Bruce Metzger, F.F. Bruce, and Kurt Aland, who deny both inspiration and preservation, they might not be so quick to pass along fallacies to unsuspecting readers.

Be that as it will, it is not difficult to dispel the myth that the Received Greek Text underlying the King James Bible and other Reformation Bibles is merely “based on seven late manuscripts.” It is true that Erasmus had in his actual possession only a few Greek manuscripts when he composed the first edition of his Greek New Testament, but he had examined a large number of other manuscripts, both Latin and Greek, and he had compared these with many ancient Bible translations and with a large number of quotations from ancient church leaders. He also was aware of the alternative readings contained in manuscripts such as the Vaticanus and Codex D. Thus he was in a position to know that those few manuscripts he had at hand represented the witness of vast numbers of other manuscripts. The fact is that the Received Text underlying the esteemed and mightily used Reformation Bibles is represented in the majority of existing Greek manuscripts, quotations from ancient church leaders, and ancient Bible translations. This is why the Received Text has commonly been called the “majority text” (though that term has been usurped in recent years by the Hodges-Farstad-Thomas Nelson Greek New Testament of 1982). Textual authorities admit that of the more than 5,200 existing Greek manuscripts, 99% contain the common traditional ecclesiastical or Received Text. Thus, on the very face of the evidence, it is nonsense to say that the Received Text is “is only based on seven late manuscripts.”

THE TESTIMONY OF J.H. MERLE D’AUBIGNE DISPELS THIS MYTH

The following quotation from historian J. H. Merle D’Aubigne demonstrates that Erasmus had access to more textual evidence than his modern detractors admit:

“Nothing was more important at the dawn of the Reformation than the publication of the Testament of Jesus Christ in the original language. Never had Erasmus worked so carefully. ‘If I told what sweat it cost me, no one would believe me.’ HE HAD COLLATED MANY GREEK MSS. of the New Testament, and WAS SURROUNDED BY ALL THE COMMENTARIES AND TRANSLATIONS, by the writings of Origen, Cyprian, Ambrose, Basil, Chrysostom, Cyril, Jerome, and Augustine. ... HE HAD INVESTIGATED THE TEXTS ACCORDING TO THE PRINCIPLES OF SACRED CRITICISM. When a knowledge of Hebrew was necessary, he had consulted Capito, and more particularly Ecolampadius. Nothing without Theseus, said he of the latter, making use of a Greek proverb” (J.H. Merle D’Aubigne, History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth Century, New York: Hurst & Company, 1835, Vol. 5, p. 157).

The popular notion that Erasmus and other 16th-century editors of the Greek New Testament worked with paltry resources is simply nonsense. The notes that Erasmus placed in his editions of the Greek New Testament prove that he was informed of the variant readings that have found their way into the modern translations since 1881. Even though Erasmus did not have access to all of the manuscripts translators can use today, there can be no doubt that he did have access to the variant readings in other ways.

“Through his study of the writings of Jerome and other Church Fathers Erasmus became very well informed concerning the variant readings of the New Testament text. Indeed almost all the important variant readings known to scholars today were already known to Erasmus more than 460 years ago and discussed in the notes (previously prepared) which he placed after the text in his editions of the Greek New Testament. Here, for example, Erasmus dealt with such problem passages as the conclusion of the Lord’s Prayer (Matt. 6:13), the interview of the rich young man with Jesus (Matt. 19:17-22), the ending of Mark (Mark 16:9-20), the angelic song (Luke 2:14), the angel, agony, and bloody seat omitted (Luke 22:43-44), the woman taken in adultery (John 7:53-8:11), and the mystery of godliness (1 Tim. 3:16)” (Dr. Edward F. Hills, The King James Version Defended, 1956, 1979, pp. 198-199).

Not only did Erasmus consult many Greek and Latin manuscripts and ancient Bible translations to determine the proper text, he examined quotations from ancient Christian writings.

“Erasmus uses the Fathers of the Church as independent witnesses for the early text of the Vulgate. In his dedicatory letter to the pope he mentions that the special care due to the sacred writings caused him not only to compare ‘the oldest and most correct manuscripts’ but also to ‘run through all the writings of the old theologians and to trace from their quotations and expositions what each one of them had read and changed’” (W. Schwarz, Principles and Problems of Biblical Translation, p. 145).

https://www.wayoflife.org/database/is_the_received_text_based_on_few.html

MYTH #2: “OUR EARLIEST MANUSCRIPTS ARE THE BEST”
We still have those manuscripts and we have almost 6,000 more manuscripts. So, we have almost a thousand times as many manuscripts as the King James New Testament was based on and our earliest don’t go back to the 11th century but so far as what’s been published, they go back to the second century. So they go back almost a thousand years earlier.

REBUTTAL TO MYTH #2
A. MORE RECENT MANUSCRIPTS STILL FAITHFULLY REPRESENT THE AUTOGRAPHS

I. And, first of all, the reader has need to be apprised (with reference to the first-named class of evidence) that most of our extant COPIES of the N. T. Scriptures are comparatively of recent date, ranging from the Xth to the XIVth century of our era. That these are in every instance copies of yet older manuscripts, is self-evident; and that in the main they represent faithfully the sacred autographs themselves, no reasonable person doubts... In truth, the security which the Text of the New Testament enjoys is altogether unique and extraordinary. To specify one single consideration, which has never yet attracted nearly the amount of attention it deserves,—“Lectionaries” abound, which establish the Text which has been publicly read in the churches of the East, from at least A.D. 400 until the time of the invention of printing.
Burgon, The Revision Revised, pp.10,12

[Note: Dean John William Burgon was one of the leading textual scholars of the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century, and was commended for his labors by the most prominent of them, i.e. F.H.A. Scrivener. They both unreservedly rejected the Westcott-Hort Theory and the handful of corrupt manuscripts they promoted because “the oldest were the best”. These are the ones which have resulted in the “critical texts including Westcott & Hort’s, Nestle’s, Nestle-Aland’s, & the United Bible Societies texts.These critical texts were used for ALL modern translations from 1881 to the present time.]

B. THE EARLIEST MANUSCRIPTS ARE ALSO THE MOST CORRUPT
But here an important consideration claims special attention. We allude to the result of increased acquaintance with certain of the oldest extant codices of the N. T. Two of these,—viz. a copy in the Vatican technically indicated by the letter B, and the recently-discovered Sinaitic codex, styled after the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet [Aleph] ,—are thought to belong to the IVth century. Two are assigned to the Vth, viz. the Alexandrian (A) in the British Museum, and the rescript codex preserved at Paris, designated C. One is probably of the VIth, viz. the codex Bezæ (D) preserved at Cambridge. Singular to relate, the first, second, fourth, and fifth of these codices (B C D), but especially B and , have within the last twenty years established a tyrannical ascendency over the imagination of the Critics,which can only be fitly spoken of as a blind superstition. It matters nothing that all four are discovered on careful scrutiny to differ essentially, not only from ninety-nine out of a hundred of the whole body of extant MSS. besides, but even from one another. This last circumstance, obviously fatal to their corporate pretensions, is unaccountably overlooked. And yet it admits of only one satisfactory explanation: viz. that in different degrees they all five exhibit a fabricated text. Between the first two (B and Aleph ) there subsists an amount of sinister resemblance, which proves that they must have been derived at no very remote period from the same corrupt original. Tischendorf insists that they were partly written by the same scribe. Yet do they stand asunder in every page; as well as differ widely from the commonly received Text, with which they have been carefully collated. On being referred to this standard, in the Gospels alone, B is found to omit at least 2877 words: to add, 536: to substitute, 935: to transpose, 2098: to modify, 1132 (in all 7578):—the corresponding figures for being severally 3455, 839, 1114, 2299, 1265 (in all 8972). And be it remembered that the omissions, additions, substitutions, transpositions, and modifications, are by no means the same in both. It is in fact easier to find two consecutive verses in which these two MSS. differ the one from the other, than two consecutive verses in which they entirely agree... What we are just now insisting upon is only the depraved text of codices Aleph A B C D,—especially of B D. And because this is a matter which lies at the root of the whole controversy, and because we cannot afford that there shall exist in our reader's mind the slightest doubt on this part of the subject, we shall be constrained once and again to trouble him with detailed specimens of the contents of Aleph B, &c., in proof of the justice of what we have been alleging. We venture to assure him, without a particle of hesitation, that Aleph B D are three of the most scandalously corrupt copies extant:—exhibit the most shamefully mutilated texts which are anywhere to be met with:—have become, by whatever process (for their history is wholly unknown), the depositories of the largest amount of fabricated readings, ancient blunders, and intentional perversions of Truth,—which are discoverable in any known copies of the Word of GOD.
Burgon, Revision Revised, pp12,13,16.

MYTH #3 MODERN TEXTUAL SCHOLARS ARE GETTING CLOSER TO THE ORIGINALS

So as time goes on, we’re not actually getting farther and farther away from the original text, we’re getting closer and closer.” ~ Daniel Wallace
REBUTTAL TO MYTH #3
As the reader now can see, the words from the preface of the RSV given on page 17 are highly misleading. The real potential which exists for improving upon the King James Version, and the Textus Receptus, has not been realized. The distressing realization is forced upon us that the "progress" of the past hundred years has been precisely in the wrong direction—our modern versions and critical texts are several times farther removed from the original than are the AV and TR! How could such a calamity have come upon us?!
Pickering, The Identity of the New Testament Text, Chapter 8.

MYTH # 4 THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS IS DEFECTIVE
The essence of the remarks is this: the King James Version is a translation based on the Textus Receptus New Testament, compiled by Erasmus and modified by others (Beza, Stephanus). It was based on relatively recent manuscript, none older than the 11th century.

REBUTTAL TO MYTH #4

THE TESTIMONY OF BISHOP ELLICOTT DISPELS THIS MYTH [Note: In spite of this Ellicott supported W&H]
As for the Received Text being based on “seven late manuscripts,” consider further the testimony of Bishop Ellicott, the chairman of the committee that produced the English Revised Version of 1881 (the committee also included Westcott and Hort), the predecessor of all modern versions:

“THE MANUSCRIPTS WHICH ERASMUS USED DIFFER, FOR THE MOST PART, ONLY IN SMALL AND INSIGNIFICANT DETAILS, FROM THE GREAT BULK OF THE CURSIVE MSS. The general character of their text is the same. By this observation the pedigree of the Received Text is carried up beyond the individual manuscripts used by Erasmus ... That pedigree stretches back to remote antiquity. THE FIRST ANCESTOR OF THE RECEIVED TEXT WAS AT LEAST CONTEMPORARY WITH THE OLDEST OF OUR EXTANT MSS, IF NOT OLDER THAN ANY ONE OF THEM” (Ellicott, The Revisers and the Greek Text of the N.T. by two members of the N.T. Company, pp. 11-12).

https://www.wayoflife.org/database/is_the_received_text_based_on_few.html

MYTH #5 MODERN TRANSLATIONS TAKE ALL MANUSCRIPTS INTO ACCOUNT

Modern translations are largely based on the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, which considers all of these previous manuscripts plus almost 1000 times as many more. And, these manuscripts are older.

REBUTTAL TO MYTH #5

But, (we shall perhaps be asked,) has any critical Editor of the N. T. seriously taught the reverse of all this? Yes indeed, we answer. Lachmann, Tregelles, Tischendorf,—the most recent and most famous of modern editors,—have all three adopted a directly opposite theory of textual revision. With the first named, fifty years ago (1831), virtually originated the principle of recurring exclusively to a few ancient documents to the exclusion of the many. “LACHMANN'S text seldom rests on more than four Greek codices, very often on three, not unfrequently on two, sometimes on only one.”53.... With Dr. Tischendorf,—(whom one vastly his superior in learning, accuracy, and judgment, has generously styled “the first Biblical Critic in Europe”59)—“the evidence of codex Aleph , supported or even unsupported by one or two other authorities of any description, is sufficient to outweigh any other witnesses,—whether Manuscripts, Versions, or ecclesiastical Writers.”60 We need say no more.... The last to enter the field are DRS. WESTCOTT and HORT, whose beautifully-printed edition of “the New Testament in the original Greek”... And, after assuring us that “the study of Grouping is the foundation of all enduring Criticism,” they produce their secret: viz. That in “every one of our witnesses” except codex B, the “corruptions are innumerable;” and that, in the Gospels, the one “group of witnesses” of “incomparable value”, is codex B in “combination with another primary Greek manuscript, as Aleph B, B L, B C, B T, B D, B ., A B, B Z, B 33, and in S. Mark B ..” This is “Textual Criticism made easy,” certainly.
[Note: Nestle follows this text as can be confirmed in Bible Hub. All other modern critical texts follow suit]

MYTH # 6 MODERN TRANSLATION ARE “MORE ACCURATE”

The reasoning that the modern translations are more accurate is that the other source manuscripts are closer to the originals, which are called "autographs", and therefore don't contain copying errors that the more recent manuscripts have. These copying errors result from things such as marginal notes of the manuscript owners, or unintentional scribal errors.

REBUTTAL TO MYTH #6

But indeed, Mutilation has been practised throughout. By codex B (collated with the traditional Text), no less than 2877 words have been excised from the four Gospels alone: by codex Aleph,—3455 words: by codex D,—3704 words... omissions in the Gospels may therefore be estimated at 4000. Codex Bezae does not admit of comparison, the first 24 chapters of S. Matthew having perished; but, from examining the way it exhibits the other three Gospels, it is found that 650 would about represent the number of words omitted from its text.—The discrepancy between the texts of Bezae and D, thus for the first time brought distinctly into notice, let it be distinctly borne in mind, is a matter wholly irrespective of the merits or demerits of the Textus Receptus,—which, for convenience only, is adopted as a standard: not, of course, of Excellence but only of Comparison.
Burgon, Revision Revised, p. 75

The eclectic [critical] text incorporates errors of fact and contradictions such that any claim that the New Testament is divinely inspired becomes relative, and the doctrine of inerrancy becomes virtually untenable. If the authority of the New Testament is undermined, all its teachings are likewise affected. For over a century the credibility of the New Testament text has been eroded, and this credibility crisis has been forced upon the attention of the laity by the modern versions that enclose parts of the text in brackets and have numerous footnotes of a sort that raise doubts about the integrity of the Text... It is clear that the four canons [of textual criticism] mentioned above depend heavily upon the subjective judgment of the critic. But why use such canons? Why not follow the manuscript evidence? It is commonly argued that the surviving MSS are not representative of the textual situation in the early centuries of the Church.
Pickering, The Identity of the New Testament Text, Appendix H.


 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#3
Ole King Jimmy..........when men will say that Jesus referenced it and the Apostles spoke from it and if it was good enough for them it is good enough for me.....that is all I need to know.....

It is a translation/transliteration and was copied and compared to the English versions that came before it......it has become an idol unto those who worship it instead of worshipping the God it portrays.......!
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,705
13,390
113
#4
MEANINGLESS AND IRRELEVANT INTRODUCTION

MYTH #1. ERASMUS WAS AN IGNORAMUS
...
MYTH # 4 THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS IS DEFECTIVE

...
That about says it all. Why anyone feels they need to twist the words of another like this is simply beyond me.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
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#5
Here we go again...

And away weeeee goooooo....

Turn loose the hounds!!!

Oops...turneth looseth the houndeths....
 
Apr 23, 2017
1,064
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#6
KING JIMMY. what about his life should we know? ahem.
sekkluud mon this is a sipple issue. again the rastafarians use the kjv what more proof do u need?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,479
12,947
113
#7
KING JIMMY. what about his life should we know? ahem.
sekkluud mon this is a sipple issue. again the rastafarians use the kjv what more proof do u need?
The Rastas wouldn't be talking about "King Jimmy" but Emperor Haile Selassie. They thought he was a god, or even YAH. As to flippantly referring to King James as "King Jimmy", when people have nothing of substance to say, then they speak insultingly.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,995
927
113
#8
MEANINGLESS AND IRRELEVANT INTRODUCTION


MYTH #1. ERASMUS WAS AN IGNORAMUS



REBUTTAL TO MYTH #1


https://www.wayoflife.org/database/is_the_received_text_based_on_few.html

MYTH #2: “OUR EARLIEST MANUSCRIPTS ARE THE BEST”


REBUTTAL TO MYTH #2
A. MORE RECENT MANUSCRIPTS STILL FAITHFULLY REPRESENT THE AUTOGRAPHS

Burgon, The Revision Revised, pp.10,12

[Note: Dean John William Burgon was one of the leading textual scholars of the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century, and was commended for his labors by the most prominent of them, i.e. F.H.A. Scrivener. They both unreservedly rejected the Westcott-Hort Theory and the handful of corrupt manuscripts they promoted because “the oldest were the best”. These are the ones which have resulted in the “critical texts including Westcott & Hort’s, Nestle’s, Nestle-Aland’s, & the United Bible Societies texts.These critical texts were used for ALL modern translations from 1881 to the present time.]

B. THE EARLIEST MANUSCRIPTS ARE ALSO THE MOST CORRUPT
Burgon, Revision Revised, pp12,13,16.

MYTH #3 MODERN TEXTUAL SCHOLARS ARE GETTING CLOSER TO THE ORIGINALS



REBUTTAL TO MYTH #3
Pickering, The Identity of the New Testament Text, Chapter 8.

MYTH # 4 THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS IS DEFECTIVE


REBUTTAL TO MYTH #4


https://www.wayoflife.org/database/is_the_received_text_based_on_few.html

MYTH #5 MODERN TRANSLATIONS TAKE ALL MANUSCRIPTS INTO ACCOUNT



REBUTTAL TO MYTH #5

[Note: Nestle follows this text as can be confirmed in Bible Hub. All other modern critical texts follow suit]

MYTH # 6 MODERN TRANSLATION ARE “MORE ACCURATE”



REBUTTAL TO MYTH #6

Burgon, Revision Revised, p. 75

Pickering, The Identity of the New Testament Text, Appendix H.




Okay, good one for dispelling the myth!

God bless