GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

What did you say the tree of represents? Do you admit you are wrong?

Col. 2 is a warning about people like you.

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

Nothing in the quoted verses explains anything about this statement: "THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL REPRESENTS GOD's Commandments"

I have nothing to criticise in the quoted verses, but your hermeneutics is hopelessly out of whack.
Yes, Romans chapter 3 is referring to the Torah, but your interpretation that it explains anything about the events of Genesis Chapter 2 or 3 cannot be accepted at face value.
The Torah was given to Moses - that is inescapable.

God gave Adam a command in Genesis 2:16-17
"16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”"

Only one command and it is clear that the penalty for disobeying the commandment was death.
You have already, truthfully, stated in this thread that before the fall Adam and his wife had no need of the Torah.
But they did have this command, and it was this command that, in its transgression condemned them.
Sin entered because of the transgression of a single command, and a single command only.
There is absolutely no evidence that any other commands or laws were involved.

Also, neither quote provides any kind of link to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or the events of Genesis chapters 2 and 3.

Furthermore, if Paul can write this, also in Romans 2:12-16:
"12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

and even more cogently in Romans 5:12-14
"12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

Romans 5:12-14 is clearly teaching that sin and death was present, from Adam to Moses apart from the Law (Torah) and confirming that the Law was not present until Moses.

Also Romans 5:20 "20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, "
and
Romans 7:13-14 "13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful."
teaches that the Law (Torah) did NOT make sin, sin, but rather made sin "exceedingly sinful".
Sin existed apart from the Torah!
Sin entered the world in Genesis chapter 3, not through or on account of the Law (Torah), but rather through a single commandment given by God in Genesis 2:16-17 and its transgression as recorded in Genesis 3:6-7.

Sin and death reigned from the time of Adam to Moses apart from the Law (Torah) Gen 5:13!

So, your quote of Romans chapter 3:19 does indeed reference the Torah and explains some, but not all of its relationship with sin, however it does not explain your quandary in trying to prove that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents the Torah!

As for Ps 119:172, lovely sentiment but not relevant to the topic at hand...

makes me wonder- if they are soooooo right and we are soooooooo wrong/ deceived by our " catholic traditions ", then why will they not have a straight up discussion with us? why always accuse and attack ? why not have a back and forth q and a with little commentary? what are they afraid of?

Nothing in the quoted verses explains anything about this statement: "THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL REPRESENTS GOD's Commandments"

I have nothing to criticise in the quoted verses, but your hermeneutics is hopelessly out of whack. Yes, Romans chapter 3 is referring to the Torah, but your interpretation that it explains anything about the events of Genesis Chapter 2 or 3 cannot be accepted at face value. The Torah was given to Moses - that is inescapable.

God gave Adam a command in Genesis 2:16-17"16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”"Only one command and it is clear that the penalty for disobeying the commandment was death. You have already, truthfully, stated in this thread that before the fall Adam and his wife had no need of the Torah. But they did have this command, and it was this command that, in its transgression condemned them. Sin entered because of the transgression of a single command, and a single command only. There is absolutely no evidence that any other commands or laws were involved.

Also, neither quote provides any kind of link to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or the events of Genesis chapters 2 and 3.

Furthermore, if Paul can write this, also in Romans 2:12-16:"12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

and even more cogently in Romans 5:12-14
"12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." Romans 5:12-14 is clearly teaching that sin and death was present, from Adam to Moses apart from the Law (Torah) and confirming that the Law was not present until Moses.

Mend you ignorance and repent of your false teaching.

What LGF told you about the Mark of the Beast, as Adventist theology sees it, is an accurate reflection in itself.
However, uber conveniently, breaking the 4th commandment makes one as culpable as breaking any other, so any individual in any church who worships on a Sunday is an apostate sinner who carries (will carry) the Mark of the Beast!
So, the Orthodox Church, the RCC, and all Protestants apart from themselves neatly condemned in one go!

i didn't mention the BOOK of MOSES or the TORAH in my answer

i said,
if the book of the covenant here Exodus 24: 7. And he took the book of the covenant

is what Moses wrote here Exodus 24: 4. And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD

then the book of the covenant would contain the ten commandments

do you agree that those two verses, 7 and 4, are talking about the same book?

"Now what do you think was the purpose of both 1. God's LAW (10 Commandments) and 2. The laws and ordinances for remission of SIN written in the Mosiac BOOK of the Covenant?"

i believe the purpose of the laws in the old covenant
(whether we put them into two or more categories)
is given here

Exodus 19: 5. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

Yes but that is not what Colossians 2:14 is referring to. Verse 16 makes it clear that the writer of Colossians is referring to the Book of the Law.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(Col 2:16 KJV)

The word therefore connects verse 16 to verse 14. The ordinances mentioned in verse 16 were handwritten in the book of the Law. Therefore the writer is speaking of the book of the Law in verse 14.

I don't know about diamonds, but I do know that an ice-age man was found with food in his stomach covered in flesh. Bodies have also been found in bogs still covered in flesh that has been preserved, and I also know it takes millions of years for coal to form where forests used to be.

I posted this in another thread, please do not be like the flat earth people and clutch onto error the same as some do on here.

Indeed

ROMANS 3 [19], Now we know that whatsoever things the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

PSALMS 119 [172], My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.

CONCLUSION: The tree of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL fits the description of God's LAW. GOD'S LAW GIVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN (Romans 3:20) and OBEDIENCE to GOD'S LAW is RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore God's LAW is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL (SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS)

The FALSE GOSPEL is the same one spoken to EVE in the Garden of EDEN which was you can break God's Commandments and you will not surely day.



Now your just mixing up two different topics and two different posts the question and scriptures above in relation to the tree of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is in relation to the first LIE and false teachers. Yet you are still discussing the TORAH before MOSES post. I think you have your topics mixed up. The two posts are separate and on different topics;

1. GOD’S LAWS BEFORE MOSES AND THE SABBATH IN CREATION CLICK ME

2. FIRST LIE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN AND FALSE TEACHERS. CLICK ME

Both posts are provided with a wall of supporting scripture. You agreed you did not have any scripture to support your belief.

Only God's WORD is true and we should BELIEVE and FOLLOW it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God (Matt 15:3-9)

Indeed, I have stated nothing different to what you have said in this section of your post. If we break ANY of God's Commandments we commit SIN and it is SIN that will keep all who practice it OUT of God's KINGDOM. Mankind BEFORE the fall was in harmony with God and naturally obedient to him through LOVE and had no KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS (Good and Evil) as they were only good and in harmony with God.



This is where we disagree. God's WORD says that it is by God's LAW that we have a KNOWLEDGE of SIN and that ALL God's Commandments are RIGHTEOUSNESS.Adam and Eve ate from this tree.

Then God says; v22, And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:<When? After they broke God's Commandment and ate of the fruit of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL>

KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL

ROMANS 3 [19], Now we know that whatsoever things the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [20], Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: FOR BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

PSALMS 119 [172], My tongue shall speak of your word: for ALL YOUR COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.

CONCLUSION: The tree of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL fits the description of God's LAW. GOD'S LAW GIVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN (Romans 3:20) and OBEDIENCE to GOD'S LAW is RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore God's LAW is the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL (SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS)

You asked how I came up with that interpretation from the false teachers first lie in the Garden post. It is based on those scriptures.



Indeed talking about UNBELIEVERS AND BELIEVERS. Your point here is? (Dont forget the TORAH post is talking about God's people following the TORAH not UNBELIEVERS?

GOD’S LAWS BEFORE MOSES AND THE SABBATH IN CREATION CLICK ME



I do not have any problem with this scripture as to me it is saying that LAW AND SIN were in the world together at the same time v13 for until the law sin was in the world;

The GREEK word UNTIL ἄχρι, ἄχρις; achri achris; akh'-ree, akh'-rece
Akin to G206 (through the idea of a terminus); (of time) until or (of place) up to : - as far as, for, in (-to), till, (even, un-) to, until, while. Compare G3360.

for while the law sin was in the world
for till the law sin was in the world
for untill the law sin was in the world

Young's Literal Translation
for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; but sin is not imputed were there is no law.

This agrees with ACTS 17 [30], And the times of this ignorance God overlooked; but now commands all men everywhere to repent. The scripture is saying that if someone does not know something is sin and has no KNOWLEDGE of God's LAW he is not held accountable untill he has been given a KNOWLEDGE of the truth.

The Book of Romans was written for gentile believers who had no knowledge of God's Laws or requirements.

The Children of Israel in Egypt however had lost sight of God's LAW through 400 years of slavery to the Egyptians. Hence the LAW given by God (10 Commandments) and Moses (book of the law) again. Scripture support below.

GOD’S LAWS BEFORE MOSES AND THE SABBATH IN CREATION CLICK ME

If your interpretation of Romans 5:12-14 is that God's people before MOSES did not have God's TORAH then you will need to explain the following scriptures that disagree with your interpretation of God's WORD...

Why was the world destroyed by a flood in the days of Noah as well as the cities of Sodom and Gomorah if God's LAW was not known? (you will need to reconcile Romans 5:13)

As well as you need to answer the quetion above and your need to reconcile Romans 5:13l; the following scriptures also show that God's people before Moses have God's TORAH (commandments and laws for sin offereings).

Gen 26:5 Because Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong LAWS - H8451; תּורה תּרה; TORAH tôrâh; to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.

The scripture says Abraham kept God's TORAH which includes God's LAW (10 Commandments) and the sacrificial laws for remission of SIN and SIN offerings.

Genesis 22
6, And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
7, And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8, And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13, And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns:and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Burnt offereings were made for remission of SIN. What is SIN? Sin is disobedience to God's WORD and includes breaking God's Commandments (Romans 7:7; James 2:9-11; 1 John 3:4). It is God's WORD and his LAW that give us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN (Romans 3:20)

Genesis 39
7, And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8, But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
9, There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

If Joseph did NOT know God’s LAW then how did he know he was SINNING against God by committing adultery with Potifer’s wife?

The TORAH laws for remission of sin (SACRIFICIAL SIN OFFERINGS) were practiced BEFORE MOSES....

Genesis 4
4, And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering.

Genesis 8
20, And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar

SIN is the transgression of God's LAW (10 Commandments) please read Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and James 2:11. God's LAW gives us a KNOWLEDGE of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS (Romans 3:20) SIN offereings were only practiced in the OLD Covenant for the remission or forgiveness of SIN (Breaking God's 10 Commandments) If God's people did not have God's LAW why are they offering SIN offereings to God if these laws were only known about in Mt Sinai?

Abraham and his son practiced and knew about sin offerings...

Genesis 22
7, And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
8, And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Exodus 10
25, And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God.

Seems God's WORD disagrees with you GNP.

Bottom line.

Your entire reply is based on the assumption that the assertion: "THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL REPRESENTS GOD's Commandments", has already been proven!

Hi GNP,

This is where your post falls to pieces and where you make your mistake. "THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL REPRESENTS GOD's Commandments" is a DIFFERENT THREAD and topic which is in relation to the first LIE and the false Gospel that many mainstream Christian churches are teaching today (2nd LINK below on separate subject matter).

The topic we are now talking about is God's TORAH being followed by God's people BEFORE MOSES. For your reference these are two separate topics based on two separate subject matter and can be found here...

1. GOD’S LAWS BEFORE MOSES AND THE SABBATH IN CREATION CLICK ME

2. FIRST LIE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN AND FALSE TEACHERS. CLICK ME

This was also pointed out in the previous post.

Your attempts to compartmentalise topics is neither here nor there, just a silly attempt to avoid answering a question! The question still stands, please prove this statement "THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL REPRESENTS GOD's Commandments"

So far you have NOT proven, Scripturally, that the above statement is true. You have merely repeated assertions that it is in fact true!

So please MR SOLA SCRIPTURA apply your undoubted expertise and knowledge and ACTUALLY prove that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents God's commandments...................

Not really as you have already admitted you have no scripture for your belief that God's people did not have TORAH before Moses when God's WORD disagrees with you, and you have been provided God's WORD that testifies against your belief. You can believe God's WORD or not I do not judge you.

It does not matter how big you make your words they are still your words over God's WORD that disagrees with you.

For PS and other believers that it takes millions of years for coal to form. Here are some sites about items found embedded in coal etc.

Things found in coal etc.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hammer

Bell Found in Coal | Genesis Park

Welcome to 6000years.org | Amazing Bible Discoveries | Proof the Bible is True

Millions of years is the big bang paradigm.

Christians have Genesis 1:1 paradigm.
"In the begining God created the heavens and the earth. "

I can only put may hand on this just now. I posted them before, you will remember.

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

"Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement" (Gittin 57a).

"Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a whore and played the harlot with carpenters" (Sanhedrin, 106a,b).

"[Christ] practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy" (Sanhedrin, 43a).

Under the Talmud's counterfeit Noahide Laws, the worship of Jesus is forbidden under penalty of death, since such worship of Christ is condemned by Judaism as idolatry. Meanwhile various forms of incest are permitted under the Talmudic understanding of the Noahide code. (Enziklopediya Talmudit, note 1, pp. 351-352).

Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery: "It is taught that on the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry...He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or condone."

Jesus Christ (the bastard boy who "uncovered his head" was conceived in the filth of menstruation).

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority.

Also click HERE and search Jesus. Not pleasant reading.

Sanhedrin is part of the Jerusalem Talmud; which is virtually unused in modern Judaism. The Babylonian Talmud is used almost exclusively.

Moses Maimonides generally speaks respectfully of Christianity. His reference to it as a stumbling block arises more fron the effect of the crusades than from doctrinal issues.

The only thing you have succeeded in doing is twisting my words.
You asked me to provide a proof from silence - not logically possible.

You however, made a claim that everything you say can be proven from Scripture.
You have made another claim that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents the Torah.
Ergo, there must be biblical proof of this.....

Please, PROVE IT!