Baptism and holy spirit
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Stunnedbygrace,
This is the last post I intend to make on this matter (directed to you) unless you tell me you actually want to talk more. So I’m hoping you’ll at least read it through. And I’m reserving the right to be human and potentially mess up at some later time.
First, I am NOT inaccurate to say that if a person is missing an aspect of God/Salvation/Truth, they will not receive the benefit of that aspect. And you are not inaccurate to say that if a person is missing a required element of salvation, they cannot accurately apply the term “saved” to themself in regards to the fullness of salvation.
However, there were two things I WAS wrong in doing. First, I highlighted the wrong aspect of the light bulb analogy because it made it look like I was trying to condemn rather than justify what I've understood your situation to be. Second, I was wrong to say "No" to the question of justification of an unlit light bulb now in the person's possession...because it IS possible. I’ll mention 2 possibilities and you can do as you see fit with the information .
If a person is given a lightbulb (with the purpose of giving them light) but the person doesn't know how to use it, the person is justified in the non-use of the light bulb, temporarily, if no one is available to offer instructions on its use and/or if there is some other kind of disconnect. In that case, it is completely understandable why the person wouldn't be walking in the main benefit of the light bulb.
Now for something I’m guessing you didn’t know:
Like you, I understand that weaning experience you were talking about because I also experienced it about 6 months after having received the Holy Ghost and baptism (regardless of anyone's thoughts on watervbaptism...they just happened on the same day so I'm acknowledging that fact). You're the first person I've met since that experience who expressed having also gone through it. With mine, he first taught me that if I wanted to keep the power, I needed to keep in prayer. Then he went ahead and took away the "feeling" of it anyway, and someone else actually had to tell me that it was because he wanted me to walk by faith rather than by sight or feeling, and that it wasn't because of me doing something wrong. Your similar experience is why I CAN believe it possible that you do have the Holy Ghost. And also like you, I don’t need you or anyone else to believe that it happened.
That's half of "the issue that pretends to divide us" (specifically, can or do YOU have the Holy Ghost). The other half is speaking in tongues. So I'll explain that to, and as you already know, you can do with that information as you will.
When I was told to ask God for the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues, I did ask sincerely (while still in the baptismal tub). Those praying for me told me to just "let it out" meaning just go ahead and speak in tongues... but even though I could feel an urge within my body, I had no idea how to "let it out" or even WHAT I was supposed to let out and I had no intentions of making something up just to please man, or even God. Someone said "try saying this" and spoke a 'sentence' in tongues. I repeated it from memory, noting that some syllables were different even though I'd intended to repeat it verbatim. They rejoiced saying "Praise God, you've got it" while I wondered whether that actually counts as speaking in tongues, and didn't figure out how to "let it out" fluently until weeks or months later, although meanwhile I still had that strong presence (your "feeling") of peace, joy, love and power.
So… from MY perspective, there was a time when I #1) had the Holy Ghost and #2) wasn’t demonstrating something that I could/would clearly say was “speaking in tongues”. So, since that time I have been keeping my eye out (so to speak) for someone who also had likely received the Holy Ghost but potentially had not spoken in tongues AT ALL.
You may just have BOTH of the things I’ve been watching 20+ years to see, and I’d love to ask you questions and also share with you, but I get the fairly strong impression that you currently think I’m a religious loser/stalker that’s latched onto you for some unpleasant reason related to the fact that you were being polite enough to respond. <--Am I close?
BTW, that’s why I’m promising to drop the topic (with you) unless you actually want to discuss it (with me) further. And your reply to this will NOT be considered a request for further interaction with me.
Now I know you could say something like "Yeah, you simply had the Holy Ghost, without tongues, and only received speaking in tongues later as an additional spiritual gift" and I would even agree that sounds perfectly logical EXCEPT that it overlooks the answer to that initial question "What is speaking in tongues FOR?". And NO, I’m not talking about it being an observable indicator of someone having received the Holy Ghost. There are greater purposes that you just won’t get until you turn that particular light bulb on. Meanwhile, I wish you well.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
This is the last post I intend to make on this matter (directed to you) unless you tell me you actually want to talk more. So I’m hoping you’ll at least read it through. And I’m reserving the right to be human and potentially mess up at some later time.
First, I am NOT inaccurate to say that if a person is missing an aspect of God/Salvation/Truth, they will not receive the benefit of that aspect. And you are not inaccurate to say that if a person is missing a required element of salvation, they cannot accurately apply the term “saved” to themself in regards to the fullness of salvation.
However, there were two things I WAS wrong in doing. First, I highlighted the wrong aspect of the light bulb analogy because it made it look like I was trying to condemn rather than justify what I've understood your situation to be. Second, I was wrong to say "No" to the question of justification of an unlit light bulb now in the person's possession...because it IS possible. I’ll mention 2 possibilities and you can do as you see fit with the information .
If a person is given a lightbulb (with the purpose of giving them light) but the person doesn't know how to use it, the person is justified in the non-use of the light bulb, temporarily, if no one is available to offer instructions on its use and/or if there is some other kind of disconnect. In that case, it is completely understandable why the person wouldn't be walking in the main benefit of the light bulb.
Now for something I’m guessing you didn’t know:
Like you, I understand that weaning experience you were talking about because I also experienced it about 6 months after having received the Holy Ghost and baptism (regardless of anyone's thoughts on watervbaptism...they just happened on the same day so I'm acknowledging that fact). You're the first person I've met since that experience who expressed having also gone through it. With mine, he first taught me that if I wanted to keep the power, I needed to keep in prayer. Then he went ahead and took away the "feeling" of it anyway, and someone else actually had to tell me that it was because he wanted me to walk by faith rather than by sight or feeling, and that it wasn't because of me doing something wrong. Your similar experience is why I CAN believe it possible that you do have the Holy Ghost. And also like you, I don’t need you or anyone else to believe that it happened.
That's half of "the issue that pretends to divide us" (specifically, can or do YOU have the Holy Ghost). The other half is speaking in tongues. So I'll explain that to, and as you already know, you can do with that information as you will.
When I was told to ask God for the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues, I did ask sincerely (while still in the baptismal tub). Those praying for me told me to just "let it out" meaning just go ahead and speak in tongues... but even though I could feel an urge within my body, I had no idea how to "let it out" or even WHAT I was supposed to let out and I had no intentions of making something up just to please man, or even God. Someone said "try saying this" and spoke a 'sentence' in tongues. I repeated it from memory, noting that some syllables were different even though I'd intended to repeat it verbatim. They rejoiced saying "Praise God, you've got it" while I wondered whether that actually counts as speaking in tongues, and didn't figure out how to "let it out" fluently until weeks or months later, although meanwhile I still had that strong presence (your "feeling") of peace, joy, love and power.
So… from MY perspective, there was a time when I #1) had the Holy Ghost and #2) wasn’t demonstrating something that I could/would clearly say was “speaking in tongues”. So, since that time I have been keeping my eye out (so to speak) for someone who also had likely received the Holy Ghost but potentially had not spoken in tongues AT ALL.
You may just have BOTH of the things I’ve been watching 20+ years to see, and I’d love to ask you questions and also share with you, but I get the fairly strong impression that you currently think I’m a religious loser/stalker that’s latched onto you for some unpleasant reason related to the fact that you were being polite enough to respond. <--Am I close?
BTW, that’s why I’m promising to drop the topic (with you) unless you actually want to discuss it (with me) further. And your reply to this will NOT be considered a request for further interaction with me. Now I know you could say something like "Yeah, you simply had the Holy Ghost, without tongues, and only received speaking in tongues later as an additional spiritual gift" and I would even agree that sounds perfectly logical EXCEPT that it overlooks the answer to that initial question "What is speaking in tongues FOR?". And NO, I’m not talking about it being an observable indicator of someone having received the Holy Ghost. There are greater purposes that you just won’t get until you turn that particular light bulb on. Meanwhile, I wish you well.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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Stunnedbygrace,
This is the last post I intend to make on this matter (directed to you) unless you tell me you actually want to talk more. So I’m hoping you’ll at least read it through. And I’m reserving the right to be human and potentially mess up at some later time.
First, I am NOT inaccurate to say that if a person is missing an aspect of God/Salvation/Truth, they will not receive the benefit of that aspect. And you are not inaccurate to say that if a person is missing a required element of salvation, they cannot accurately apply the term “saved” to themself in regards to the fullness of salvation.
However, there were two things I WAS wrong in doing. First, I highlighted the wrong aspect of the light bulb analogy because it made it look like I was trying to condemn rather than justify what I've understood your situation to be. Second, I was wrong to say "No" to the question of justification of an unlit light bulb now in the person's possession...because it IS possible. I’ll mention 2 possibilities and you can do as you see fit with the information .
If a person is given a lightbulb (with the purpose of giving them light) but the person doesn't know how to use it, the person is justified in the non-use of the light bulb, temporarily, if no one is available to offer instructions on its use and/or if there is some other kind of disconnect. In that case, it is completely understandable why the person wouldn't be walking in the main benefit of the light bulb.
Now for something I’m guessing you didn’t know:
Like you, I understand that weaning experience you were talking about because I also experienced it about 6 months after having received the Holy Ghost and baptism (regardless of anyone's thoughts on watervbaptism...they just happened on the same day so I'm acknowledging that fact). You're the first person I've met since that experience who expressed having also gone through it. With mine, he first taught me that if I wanted to keep the power, I needed to keep in prayer. Then he went ahead and took away the "feeling" of it anyway, and someone else actually had to tell me that it was because he wanted me to walk by faith rather than by sight or feeling, and that it wasn't because of me doing something wrong. Your similar experience is why I CAN believe it possible that you do have the Holy Ghost. And also like you, I don’t need you or anyone else to believe that it happened.
That's half of "the issue that pretends to divide us" (specifically, can or do YOU have the Holy Ghost). The other half is speaking in tongues. So I'll explain that to, and as you already know, you can do with that information as you will.
When I was told to ask God for the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues, I did ask sincerely (while still in the baptismal tub). Those praying for me told me to just "let it out" meaning just go ahead and speak in tongues... but even though I could feel an urge within my body, I had no idea how to "let it out" or even WHAT I was supposed to let out and I had no intentions of making something up just to please man, or even God. Someone said "try saying this" and spoke a 'sentence' in tongues. I repeated it from memory, noting that some syllables were different even though I'd intended to repeat it verbatim. They rejoiced saying "Praise God, you've got it" while I wondered whether that actually counts as speaking in tongues, and didn't figure out how to "let it out" fluently until weeks or months later, although meanwhile I still had that strong presence (your "feeling") of peace, joy, love and power.
So… from MY perspective, there was a time when I #1) had the Holy Ghost and #2) wasn’t demonstrating something that I could/would clearly say was “speaking in tongues”. So, since that time I have been keeping my eye out (so to speak) for someone who also had likely received the Holy Ghost but potentially had not spoken in tongues AT ALL.
You may just have BOTH of the things I’ve been watching 20+ years to see, and I’d love to ask you questions and also share with you, but I get the fairly strong impression that you currently think I’m a religious loser/stalker that’s latched onto you for some unpleasant reason related to the fact that you were being polite enough to respond. <--Am I close? BTW, that’s why I’m promising to drop the topic (with you) unless you actually want to discuss it (with me) further. And your reply to this will NOT be considered a request for further interaction with me.
Now I know you could say something like "Yeah, you simply had the Holy Ghost, without tongues, and only received speaking in tongues later as an additional spiritual gift" and I would even agree that sounds perfectly logical EXCEPT that it overlooks the answer to that initial question "What is speaking in tongues FOR?". And NO, I’m not talking about it being an observable indicator of someone having received the Holy Ghost. There are greater purposes that you just won’t get until you turn that particular light bulb on. Meanwhile, I wish you well.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
This is the last post I intend to make on this matter (directed to you) unless you tell me you actually want to talk more. So I’m hoping you’ll at least read it through. And I’m reserving the right to be human and potentially mess up at some later time.
First, I am NOT inaccurate to say that if a person is missing an aspect of God/Salvation/Truth, they will not receive the benefit of that aspect. And you are not inaccurate to say that if a person is missing a required element of salvation, they cannot accurately apply the term “saved” to themself in regards to the fullness of salvation.
However, there were two things I WAS wrong in doing. First, I highlighted the wrong aspect of the light bulb analogy because it made it look like I was trying to condemn rather than justify what I've understood your situation to be. Second, I was wrong to say "No" to the question of justification of an unlit light bulb now in the person's possession...because it IS possible. I’ll mention 2 possibilities and you can do as you see fit with the information .
If a person is given a lightbulb (with the purpose of giving them light) but the person doesn't know how to use it, the person is justified in the non-use of the light bulb, temporarily, if no one is available to offer instructions on its use and/or if there is some other kind of disconnect. In that case, it is completely understandable why the person wouldn't be walking in the main benefit of the light bulb.
Now for something I’m guessing you didn’t know:
Like you, I understand that weaning experience you were talking about because I also experienced it about 6 months after having received the Holy Ghost and baptism (regardless of anyone's thoughts on watervbaptism...they just happened on the same day so I'm acknowledging that fact). You're the first person I've met since that experience who expressed having also gone through it. With mine, he first taught me that if I wanted to keep the power, I needed to keep in prayer. Then he went ahead and took away the "feeling" of it anyway, and someone else actually had to tell me that it was because he wanted me to walk by faith rather than by sight or feeling, and that it wasn't because of me doing something wrong. Your similar experience is why I CAN believe it possible that you do have the Holy Ghost. And also like you, I don’t need you or anyone else to believe that it happened.
That's half of "the issue that pretends to divide us" (specifically, can or do YOU have the Holy Ghost). The other half is speaking in tongues. So I'll explain that to, and as you already know, you can do with that information as you will.
When I was told to ask God for the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues, I did ask sincerely (while still in the baptismal tub). Those praying for me told me to just "let it out" meaning just go ahead and speak in tongues... but even though I could feel an urge within my body, I had no idea how to "let it out" or even WHAT I was supposed to let out and I had no intentions of making something up just to please man, or even God. Someone said "try saying this" and spoke a 'sentence' in tongues. I repeated it from memory, noting that some syllables were different even though I'd intended to repeat it verbatim. They rejoiced saying "Praise God, you've got it" while I wondered whether that actually counts as speaking in tongues, and didn't figure out how to "let it out" fluently until weeks or months later, although meanwhile I still had that strong presence (your "feeling") of peace, joy, love and power.
So… from MY perspective, there was a time when I #1) had the Holy Ghost and #2) wasn’t demonstrating something that I could/would clearly say was “speaking in tongues”. So, since that time I have been keeping my eye out (so to speak) for someone who also had likely received the Holy Ghost but potentially had not spoken in tongues AT ALL.
You may just have BOTH of the things I’ve been watching 20+ years to see, and I’d love to ask you questions and also share with you, but I get the fairly strong impression that you currently think I’m a religious loser/stalker that’s latched onto you for some unpleasant reason related to the fact that you were being polite enough to respond. <--Am I close?
BTW, that’s why I’m promising to drop the topic (with you) unless you actually want to discuss it (with me) further. And your reply to this will NOT be considered a request for further interaction with me.Now I know you could say something like "Yeah, you simply had the Holy Ghost, without tongues, and only received speaking in tongues later as an additional spiritual gift" and I would even agree that sounds perfectly logical EXCEPT that it overlooks the answer to that initial question "What is speaking in tongues FOR?". And NO, I’m not talking about it being an observable indicator of someone having received the Holy Ghost. There are greater purposes that you just won’t get until you turn that particular light bulb on. Meanwhile, I wish you well.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
i never thought you were a nut. Seriously. I just knew for a fact that you were mistaken that if one hadn't spoken in tongues then they hadn't received the Spirit because I never have but know darn well I have received Him.
now I think I see that you think I just haven't turned on the lightbulb.
and I don't have a problem with you thinking that. But I trust God to guide me and think that it He wants me to have a gift/manifestation such as healing, tongues, etc., then I will and if He doesn't then I wont. and I am very open to speaking with you or I wouldn't be here speaking with you. But I think you need to be open to the thought that God might not give the gift/manifestation of healing to everyone or of tongues to everyone. In other words, you should be open to the consideration that you might be wrong about some things having to do with God and the working of the Spirit.
Stunnedbygrace,
This is the last post I intend to make on this matter (directed to you) unless you tell me you actually want to talk more. So I’m hoping you’ll at least read it through. And I’m reserving the right to be human and potentially mess up at some later time.
First, I am NOT inaccurate to say that if a person is missing an aspect of God/Salvation/Truth, they will not receive the benefit of that aspect. And you are not inaccurate to say that if a person is missing a required element of salvation, they cannot accurately apply the term “saved” to themself in regards to the fullness of salvation.
However, there were two things I WAS wrong in doing. First, I highlighted the wrong aspect of the light bulb analogy because it made it look like I was trying to condemn rather than justify what I've understood your situation to be. Second, I was wrong to say "No" to the question of justification of an unlit light bulb now in the person's possession...because it IS possible. I’ll mention 2 possibilities and you can do as you see fit with the information .
If a person is given a lightbulb (with the purpose of giving them light) but the person doesn't know how to use it, the person is justified in the non-use of the light bulb, temporarily, if no one is available to offer instructions on its use and/or if there is some other kind of disconnect. In that case, it is completely understandable why the person wouldn't be walking in the main benefit of the light bulb.
Now for something I’m guessing you didn’t know:
Like you, I understand that weaning experience you were talking about because I also experienced it about 6 months after having received the Holy Ghost and baptism (regardless of anyone's thoughts on watervbaptism...they just happened on the same day so I'm acknowledging that fact). You're the first person I've met since that experience who expressed having also gone through it. With mine, he first taught me that if I wanted to keep the power, I needed to keep in prayer. Then he went ahead and took away the "feeling" of it anyway, and someone else actually had to tell me that it was because he wanted me to walk by faith rather than by sight or feeling, and that it wasn't because of me doing something wrong. Your similar experience is why I CAN believe it possible that you do have the Holy Ghost. And also like you, I don’t need you or anyone else to believe that it happened.
That's half of "the issue that pretends to divide us" (specifically, can or do YOU have the Holy Ghost). The other half is speaking in tongues. So I'll explain that to, and as you already know, you can do with that information as you will.
When I was told to ask God for the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues, I did ask sincerely (while still in the baptismal tub). Those praying for me told me to just "let it out" meaning just go ahead and speak in tongues... but even though I could feel an urge within my body, I had no idea how to "let it out" or even WHAT I was supposed to let out and I had no intentions of making something up just to please man, or even God. Someone said "try saying this" and spoke a 'sentence' in tongues. I repeated it from memory, noting that some syllables were different even though I'd intended to repeat it verbatim. They rejoiced saying "Praise God, you've got it" while I wondered whether that actually counts as speaking in tongues, and didn't figure out how to "let it out" fluently until weeks or months later, although meanwhile I still had that strong presence (your "feeling") of peace, joy, love and power.
So… from MY perspective, there was a time when I #1) had the Holy Ghost and #2) wasn’t demonstrating something that I could/would clearly say was “speaking in tongues”. So, since that time I have been keeping my eye out (so to speak) for someone who also had likely received the Holy Ghost but potentially had not spoken in tongues AT ALL.
You may just have BOTH of the things I’ve been watching 20+ years to see, and I’d love to ask you questions and also share with you, but I get the fairly strong impression that you currently think I’m a religious loser/stalker that’s latched onto you for some unpleasant reason related to the fact that you were being polite enough to respond. <--Am I close? BTW, that’s why I’m promising to drop the topic (with you) unless you actually want to discuss it (with me) further. And your reply to this will NOT be considered a request for further interaction with me.
Now I know you could say something like "Yeah, you simply had the Holy Ghost, without tongues, and only received speaking in tongues later as an additional spiritual gift" and I would even agree that sounds perfectly logical EXCEPT that it overlooks the answer to that initial question "What is speaking in tongues FOR?". And NO, I’m not talking about it being an observable indicator of someone having received the Holy Ghost. There are greater purposes that you just won’t get until you turn that particular light bulb on. Meanwhile, I wish you well.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
This is the last post I intend to make on this matter (directed to you) unless you tell me you actually want to talk more. So I’m hoping you’ll at least read it through. And I’m reserving the right to be human and potentially mess up at some later time.
First, I am NOT inaccurate to say that if a person is missing an aspect of God/Salvation/Truth, they will not receive the benefit of that aspect. And you are not inaccurate to say that if a person is missing a required element of salvation, they cannot accurately apply the term “saved” to themself in regards to the fullness of salvation.
However, there were two things I WAS wrong in doing. First, I highlighted the wrong aspect of the light bulb analogy because it made it look like I was trying to condemn rather than justify what I've understood your situation to be. Second, I was wrong to say "No" to the question of justification of an unlit light bulb now in the person's possession...because it IS possible. I’ll mention 2 possibilities and you can do as you see fit with the information .
If a person is given a lightbulb (with the purpose of giving them light) but the person doesn't know how to use it, the person is justified in the non-use of the light bulb, temporarily, if no one is available to offer instructions on its use and/or if there is some other kind of disconnect. In that case, it is completely understandable why the person wouldn't be walking in the main benefit of the light bulb.
Now for something I’m guessing you didn’t know:
Like you, I understand that weaning experience you were talking about because I also experienced it about 6 months after having received the Holy Ghost and baptism (regardless of anyone's thoughts on watervbaptism...they just happened on the same day so I'm acknowledging that fact). You're the first person I've met since that experience who expressed having also gone through it. With mine, he first taught me that if I wanted to keep the power, I needed to keep in prayer. Then he went ahead and took away the "feeling" of it anyway, and someone else actually had to tell me that it was because he wanted me to walk by faith rather than by sight or feeling, and that it wasn't because of me doing something wrong. Your similar experience is why I CAN believe it possible that you do have the Holy Ghost. And also like you, I don’t need you or anyone else to believe that it happened.
That's half of "the issue that pretends to divide us" (specifically, can or do YOU have the Holy Ghost). The other half is speaking in tongues. So I'll explain that to, and as you already know, you can do with that information as you will.
When I was told to ask God for the Holy Ghost with speaking in tongues, I did ask sincerely (while still in the baptismal tub). Those praying for me told me to just "let it out" meaning just go ahead and speak in tongues... but even though I could feel an urge within my body, I had no idea how to "let it out" or even WHAT I was supposed to let out and I had no intentions of making something up just to please man, or even God. Someone said "try saying this" and spoke a 'sentence' in tongues. I repeated it from memory, noting that some syllables were different even though I'd intended to repeat it verbatim. They rejoiced saying "Praise God, you've got it" while I wondered whether that actually counts as speaking in tongues, and didn't figure out how to "let it out" fluently until weeks or months later, although meanwhile I still had that strong presence (your "feeling") of peace, joy, love and power.
So… from MY perspective, there was a time when I #1) had the Holy Ghost and #2) wasn’t demonstrating something that I could/would clearly say was “speaking in tongues”. So, since that time I have been keeping my eye out (so to speak) for someone who also had likely received the Holy Ghost but potentially had not spoken in tongues AT ALL.
You may just have BOTH of the things I’ve been watching 20+ years to see, and I’d love to ask you questions and also share with you, but I get the fairly strong impression that you currently think I’m a religious loser/stalker that’s latched onto you for some unpleasant reason related to the fact that you were being polite enough to respond. <--Am I close?
BTW, that’s why I’m promising to drop the topic (with you) unless you actually want to discuss it (with me) further. And your reply to this will NOT be considered a request for further interaction with me.Now I know you could say something like "Yeah, you simply had the Holy Ghost, without tongues, and only received speaking in tongues later as an additional spiritual gift" and I would even agree that sounds perfectly logical EXCEPT that it overlooks the answer to that initial question "What is speaking in tongues FOR?". And NO, I’m not talking about it being an observable indicator of someone having received the Holy Ghost. There are greater purposes that you just won’t get until you turn that particular light bulb on. Meanwhile, I wish you well.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
A better understanding can be sought after by looking to the root our foundation of tongue why as to why God mocked the unbelieving Jews with stammering lips solve that mystery and 1 Corinthians 14 then makes sense.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is of God not seen the water baptism is of men seen .never do the two become one . The things of men seen clearly in all cases offend the things of God not seen. No such thing as sign or observable gift . We walk by our new faith given as a free gift the unseen.
Study tolLearn how to distinguish the things of God from those of men
Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an "offence" unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.Mathew 16
Just wondering if everyone is on the same page. Receiving the Spirit at salvation is not the same thing as the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
To discuss both together would bring a lot of confusion if they are not clearly indicated.
To discuss both together would bring a lot of confusion if they are not clearly indicated.
Well, when Jesus ascended to Heaven to the real Holy of Holies to present His own blood on the Mercy Seat, the New Covenant was ratified & those already believing in Christ were saved & received the earnest of the Holy Spirit. This is why they were able to bring Matthias in as their new apostle, because they were following the Spirit's leading to do so.
But after Jesus came back to see the disciples again, He told then to tarry in the upper room until they received power from on High.
They were already saved when they did that, showing plainly it was 2 different receptions of the Holy Spirit: one the earnest of salvation, and the other a full immersion of the Spirit for service.
But after Jesus came back to see the disciples again, He told then to tarry in the upper room until they received power from on High.
They were already saved when they did that, showing plainly it was 2 different receptions of the Holy Spirit: one the earnest of salvation, and the other a full immersion of the Spirit for service.
R
Tongues are for unbelievers because they are not able to understand the word of God, because God is a foreigner to them. Not being able to understand what someone says is the sign that they are a foreigner to you, and you to them.
"11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. "-1 Corinthians 14:11
That's why someone must interpret messages given in tongues among believers. Veiled, not understandable messages are for unbelievers who do not have the Spirit and can not grasp the word of God:
"14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. "-1 Corinthians 2:14
While the unveiled, understandable word of God is for believers who do have the Spirit of God to know the thoughts of God:
"13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words."-1 Corinthians 2:13
A person can receive the baptism of power at his water baptism. It's not common today because the church does not teach it. You can't receive what you are not told to receive by faith.......except in the rare exception when God gives something by his own sovereign choice.
"11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. "-1 Corinthians 14:11
That's why someone must interpret messages given in tongues among believers. Veiled, not understandable messages are for unbelievers who do not have the Spirit and can not grasp the word of God:
"14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. "-1 Corinthians 2:14
While the unveiled, understandable word of God is for believers who do have the Spirit of God to know the thoughts of God:
"13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words."-1 Corinthians 2:13
A person can receive the baptism of power at his water baptism. It's not common today because the church does not teach it. You can't receive what you are not told to receive by faith.......except in the rare exception when God gives something by his own sovereign choice.
R
The apostles receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit before Jesus ascended:
"22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. "-John 20:22
The apostles receiving the power of the Holy Spirit after the ascension of Jesus:
"3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. "-Acts 2:3-4
Key word: filled.
"22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. "-John 20:22
The apostles receiving the power of the Holy Spirit after the ascension of Jesus:
"3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. "-Acts 2:3-4
Key word: filled.
R
It's all about whether you're going to be powerful and effective in the Spirit, or whether you're just going to have the Holy Spirit.
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized witha water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
8 ...you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”-Acts 2:4-5,8
The power of effective witness (in daily living and/or a spiritual gift) comes from being filled with the Holy Spirit, not just possessing the Holy Spirit. Most Christians are only taught to possess the Holy Spirit in salvation, not taught to be filled with Him in power.
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized witha water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
8 ...you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”-Acts 2:4-5,8
The power of effective witness (in daily living and/or a spiritual gift) comes from being filled with the Holy Spirit, not just possessing the Holy Spirit. Most Christians are only taught to possess the Holy Spirit in salvation, not taught to be filled with Him in power.
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So, how would you respond to a person that fervently prayed to "receive" the Spirit, and had others praying for them, laying hands on them, and no miraculous "event" happened?
They just weren't "good enough"? They are forever destined to simply have the Spirit, but not be powerful and effective in the Spirit?
That is a very elitist (and incorrect IMO) belief system.
They just weren't "good enough"? They are forever destined to simply have the Spirit, but not be powerful and effective in the Spirit?
That is a very elitist (and incorrect IMO) belief system.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Scripture would conclude that you are not saved if you do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Scripture would conclude that you are not saved if you do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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E
why would people pray for others to recieve the spirit? They either have the spirit because they have been saved, or they do not, if they do not have the spirit, you praying for them to be saved and be given the spirit in their hearts as a pledge of their salvtaion is not going to help. They have to repent themselves. if they want the spirit of God.
as for gifting, The spirit gives gifts as he wills.. If someone does not have a particular gift, it does not mean they are not saved or do not have the spirit
as for gifting, The spirit gives gifts as he wills.. If someone does not have a particular gift, it does not mean they are not saved or do not have the spirit
Laying on of hands is a ceremonial law just as water baptism applied when a new believer desires to work as a member of the kingdom of priests to get out the gospel . All believer are potential priest in that way . Because it is ceremonial it as a shadow it can never make the worshipper perfect. We walk by faith the unseen eternal and not by sight, the temporal
2 Corinthians 4:18 King James Version (KJV)18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Thanks for being willing to continue speaking with me.
I'd written more but deleted it for sake of posting what I'd gotten in prayer tonight... which is the story of the man at the pool of Bethesda. He'd been infirmed for 38 years. Jesus asked him "Wilt thou be made whole?"
I've include the verses for reference.
John 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
John 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
John 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
John 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
John 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
I'd written more but deleted it for sake of posting what I'd gotten in prayer tonight... which is the story of the man at the pool of Bethesda. He'd been infirmed for 38 years. Jesus asked him "Wilt thou be made whole?"
I've include the verses for reference.
John 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
John 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
John 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
John 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
John 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby