The modern church and the "Sinners Prayer"- True or false teaching?
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Hebrews 10:17-18 ESV
then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Is this what we're saying means you lose salvation every time you sin, until you ask for forgiveness?
i don't think that's what this means. it seems to say that He has forgotten our sin, because of the work of Christ, and therefore there is no more sacrifice, because it is not needed: Jesus has become all-sufficent for us. And it doesn't seem to be talking about 'asking' at all; it's about believing what He has done, because to sacrifice now, would be unbelief.
then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Is this what we're saying means you lose salvation every time you sin, until you ask for forgiveness?
i don't think that's what this means. it seems to say that He has forgotten our sin, because of the work of Christ, and therefore there is no more sacrifice, because it is not needed: Jesus has become all-sufficent for us. And it doesn't seem to be talking about 'asking' at all; it's about believing what He has done, because to sacrifice now, would be unbelief.
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That's because it is not in scripture.
This is scripture: Hebrews 10:17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” 18And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,…
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-18.htm
This is scripture: 1 John 5:18
We know that God's children do not make a practice of sinning, for God's Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them.
1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s2 seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us
With that last scripture in particular there is a group think in the church that argues the verse is telling us that we can continue to sin as one redeemed in Christ and as such when we confess those transgressions we are cleansed again and again. That's most often a teaching that correlates more toward the Roman Catholic teaching, and sustains their confessional as well. But it is not that in matters of the message of Christ.
That scripture is a sermon being brought to converts, which in the beginning were Jews, and those who were not yet redeemed in Christ. Those one's were the subject of that admonition, if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar , and his word is not in us.
To rebuff those who would say, I am not a sinner! I sacrifice for my sins, under the old blood sacrifice practice of the early Jews, and therefore I am not a sinner and do not need to accept the teachings of this Jesus.
Then there is that teaching we've encountered here. That which argues, the Christian that is alive in Christ, reborn through God's grace and their faith, washed clean of their sins and arise as a new creation , are still sinners who are dead in their sins and lose their salvation every time they sin.
That's not sustained by scripture. Jesus came to give eternal life. And eternal salvation. For that teaching mentioned above to be accurate, everything that was achieved through faith in Christ would be reversed with every transgression. Therefore we'd need to be regenerated again, we'd go back to being dead in that sin we just committed, etc....
That's simply not sustaining the teachings of Jesus nor his sacrifice on the cross so as to deliver the new covenant to the world's sinners. Taking the sins of the world upon himself on the cross.
Whereas, the Bible does tell us that the Christian, those redeemed in Christ, do not make a habit of sinning. IF we do the truth is not in us. In other words, that which claims they are a Christian and yet claim that title but keep on sinning, living as they did prior to claiming the title of Christian, are not actually demonstrating redemption in Christ. And for them, as the scripture states when they are false while claiming to be one in Christ, there remains no sacrifice for their sins. As they keep on as themselves , dead in their sins, while claiming to be in Christ, there is no other sacrifice that will arrive to cleanse them of their dead state. Not when they've abused the name of Christ and his teaching by claiming they are in Christ and yet have not demonstrated they are renewed and dead to their former fallen ways.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
This is scripture: Hebrews 10:17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” 18And where these have been forgiven, an offering for sin is no longer needed. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,…
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-18.htm
This is scripture: 1 John 5:18
We know that God's children do not make a practice of sinning, for God's Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them.
1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s2 seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us
With that last scripture in particular there is a group think in the church that argues the verse is telling us that we can continue to sin as one redeemed in Christ and as such when we confess those transgressions we are cleansed again and again. That's most often a teaching that correlates more toward the Roman Catholic teaching, and sustains their confessional as well. But it is not that in matters of the message of Christ.
That scripture is a sermon being brought to converts, which in the beginning were Jews, and those who were not yet redeemed in Christ. Those one's were the subject of that admonition, if we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar , and his word is not in us.
To rebuff those who would say, I am not a sinner! I sacrifice for my sins, under the old blood sacrifice practice of the early Jews, and therefore I am not a sinner and do not need to accept the teachings of this Jesus.
Then there is that teaching we've encountered here. That which argues, the Christian that is alive in Christ, reborn through God's grace and their faith, washed clean of their sins and arise as a new creation , are still sinners who are dead in their sins and lose their salvation every time they sin.
That's not sustained by scripture. Jesus came to give eternal life. And eternal salvation. For that teaching mentioned above to be accurate, everything that was achieved through faith in Christ would be reversed with every transgression. Therefore we'd need to be regenerated again, we'd go back to being dead in that sin we just committed, etc....
That's simply not sustaining the teachings of Jesus nor his sacrifice on the cross so as to deliver the new covenant to the world's sinners. Taking the sins of the world upon himself on the cross.
Whereas, the Bible does tell us that the Christian, those redeemed in Christ, do not make a habit of sinning. IF we do the truth is not in us. In other words, that which claims they are a Christian and yet claim that title but keep on sinning, living as they did prior to claiming the title of Christian, are not actually demonstrating redemption in Christ. And for them, as the scripture states when they are false while claiming to be one in Christ, there remains no sacrifice for their sins. As they keep on as themselves , dead in their sins, while claiming to be in Christ, there is no other sacrifice that will arrive to cleanse them of their dead state. Not when they've abused the name of Christ and his teaching by claiming they are in Christ and yet have not demonstrated they are renewed and dead to their former fallen ways.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
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I've bolded that part of your remark to say, you're right.
The scripture in Hebrews 10 is referring to Apostasy. These are commentaries that help explain further.
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-26.htm
The scripture in Hebrews 10 is referring to Apostasy. These are commentaries that help explain further.
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-26.htm
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Well, you be my judge....
I was in a restaurant and heard if you die tonight you will go to hell....
Background.... My husband is a Jew that was murdered in December 1990, robbery in a store, in June of that year we were invited by friends to a Baptist Church.... the alter call came he said he wanted to go down I looked at him like he was stupid but he got saved any way. Now as a good Jew in my eyes he was an idiot. But Feb. of 1991 I heard a voice for no reason.... I was fulfilled with fear like I never felt before or sence and I said Lord SAVE ME!!!! Less than a month a decided I want to know what Christians know about Y-shua so I went to Bible college then I have lived 26+ years serving Him....
I'm not sure how Christians get saved...lol.... But I know how I did.... I was raised to hate Him and all my brothers and sisters in Christ.... I LOVE HIM AND ALL OF YOU!!!!!
You got me I just said Lord Save me and the rest is written in His Book....
I was in a restaurant and heard if you die tonight you will go to hell....
Background.... My husband is a Jew that was murdered in December 1990, robbery in a store, in June of that year we were invited by friends to a Baptist Church.... the alter call came he said he wanted to go down I looked at him like he was stupid but he got saved any way. Now as a good Jew in my eyes he was an idiot. But Feb. of 1991 I heard a voice for no reason.... I was fulfilled with fear like I never felt before or sence and I said Lord SAVE ME!!!! Less than a month a decided I want to know what Christians know about Y-shua so I went to Bible college then I have lived 26+ years serving Him....
I'm not sure how Christians get saved...lol.... But I know how I did.... I was raised to hate Him and all my brothers and sisters in Christ.... I LOVE HIM AND ALL OF YOU!!!!!
You got me I just said Lord Save me and the rest is written in His Book....
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One can not set a sure foundation with anything but the truth. Our job is to spread the good news of Christ. We testify and spread the truth. Rebirth is equivalent to the direction of the wind. An untruthful testimony and thwarting the truth because it may be found offensive is not an option. We must use discernment and wisdom when wielding the power of the word of God.
It is challenging at times trying to truthfully convey the sovereignty of God to a new believer, or the inquisitive unbeliever while portraying humility and grace. Nevertheless, we must not thwart the character or truth of God for worries that it may be repugnant to the listener. I will never lead anyone to believe that they need to say a prayer to encourage God, or to reassure themselves. I would suggest the reading of scripture and let the spirit of truth work as it will.
Am I right? Right or wrong can be debated, but I think that I can say that I am confident in the wisdom given to me that I lead more TO Christ in truth than AWAY from through compromising to appease.
Could I be closed minded in a singular view? It's possible. Do I want to offend anyone? Absolutely not. Do I? Well, that's up to the receiver.
I don't believe you can spread the love of God without the love of God. Kinda like someone who never dealt with anything pertaining to addiction encourag an addict with solid relevance through experience.
Anyhow, I believe that it is perfectly fine for one to cry out to God in hopes of redemption. I actually encourage it. I do not believe it to be perfectly fine to teach that a prayer of any sort is a sure and instantaneous way to become a child of God.
Spread the truth and testify. I can do that. Everything else, well, it's already been done.
Be careful of legalism. It creeps in as unknowingly as pride can. It can diminish the Joy of the truth.
Peace all!
I think we know well enough if we've lived long enough in Christ that the world is full of liars and deceivers and those who hate the truth.
We can see evidence of this quite openly now. In the world where terrorists slaughter Christians in their own church. We're even being murdered in parts of India now.
And in Great Britain we're being persecuted for daring to speak openly the truth of God in Christ.
In America a faction of immoral sinners gained the constitutional right to be equal to all Americans. And now, they're insuring in every opportunity they can find, to revoke the Constitutional rights of those who would hold to their religious values and say, no, I shall not refer to a man using female pronouns. And yes, the immoral sin of homosexuality is a damnable offense against God.
Now with the Internet it is even more apparent that the enemies of Christ have a new avenue by which to stalk their prey. They take delight in watching Christians stand for the word, in context, while they cherry pick verses they find on-line in order to call Christ a liar. And deny salvation is eternal and true. Because they are damned and led to follow darkness and as the scripture asks, what in common does light have with darkness?
I imagine the Net trolls look to take great satisfaction in upsetting peace filled people of Christ. They resort to sarcasm, innuendo, insults outright, just to see if they can pluck a nerve. It's tragic to witness how deep in the pit such wailing sounds off when meeting people living in the blessed light of redemption. They're not getting away with anything. Not now. And not later.
Matthew 12:36-37 "I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
We can see evidence of this quite openly now. In the world where terrorists slaughter Christians in their own church. We're even being murdered in parts of India now.
And in Great Britain we're being persecuted for daring to speak openly the truth of God in Christ.
In America a faction of immoral sinners gained the constitutional right to be equal to all Americans. And now, they're insuring in every opportunity they can find, to revoke the Constitutional rights of those who would hold to their religious values and say, no, I shall not refer to a man using female pronouns. And yes, the immoral sin of homosexuality is a damnable offense against God.
Now with the Internet it is even more apparent that the enemies of Christ have a new avenue by which to stalk their prey. They take delight in watching Christians stand for the word, in context, while they cherry pick verses they find on-line in order to call Christ a liar. And deny salvation is eternal and true. Because they are damned and led to follow darkness and as the scripture asks, what in common does light have with darkness?
I imagine the Net trolls look to take great satisfaction in upsetting peace filled people of Christ. They resort to sarcasm, innuendo, insults outright, just to see if they can pluck a nerve. It's tragic to witness how deep in the pit such wailing sounds off when meeting people living in the blessed light of redemption. They're not getting away with anything. Not now. And not later.
Matthew 12:36-37 "I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
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okay, just to be clear, for bookkeeping, Froggy said this:
and preston responded:
and i asked what scripture you were quoting, because that " . . . " isn't actually a quote from scripture.
so preston:
preston suggests that Hebrews 10:26 says when sin is present, there is no sacrifice for forgiveness, and that means no believer is secure in their salvation.
i disagree that this tells us there is no sacrifice for forgiveness when sin is present.
Christ has sacrificed Himself, once and for all ((re: Hebrews 10:14)) perfecting forever all who He is making holy -- so His sacrifice is always present. He is I AM. not constrained by time.
i disagree that Hebrews 10:26, in its context, is telling us that no believer is secure. just 12 'verses' prior, we are told that Jesus Christ has forever perfected the one whose trust is in Him. only 8 verses prior, we read this, His promise:
the next two verses proclaim the boldness we have to enter the most holy place because of His work for us. boldness where the high priest, only the high priest, once a year, only once a year, entered, and he, with a rope tied around his leg for fear he would be struck dead for sin or error and no one would be able to retrieve the body without likewise perishing. not bold, previously!!
why?
just 4 verses before what preston would have me believe is proof that we are fools to say we have assurance, we read this:
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
that doesn't say an assurance of works, btw. it says an assurance of faith
what comes 3 verses before what supposedly a reason to waver in our trust, to let go of believing that He has forever made us perfect, no more remembering our sin and iniquity, and is transforming us into an holy thing?
His faithfulness endures forever
oh, now we're close to what i'm being told should make us doubt our security in His arms, which preston says negates our trust in the powerful working of His sacrifice, and nullifies the security of His salvation He has willed for us:
you are right, preston. we should spend more time in the scriptures.
in these scriptures, there's a "for" pointing back as a reason that the statement before it is being made. let's exhort one another to love, and to do right. let's get together. because there's no more sacrifice.
hey, didn't he just say something about 'no more sacrifice' ?
yeah, hardly a paragraph ago, prefacing where we're at now: God's promise, that we're supposed to hold onto, and never waver from faith in. the thing to exhort one another with:
no more sacrifice for sin where sin and iniquity have all been forgotten. forgotten because one perfect sacrifice for all time has been made. don't forget that, the Word says
"it's good news"
so what's going on here, among these Hebrew believers, that the author is telling them to get together, don't neglect to meet with one another, because there's no more sacrifice for sin - because God has promised not to remember it?
where do religious Hebrew Christians in 1st century go, when they're not meeting with each other? who do they assemble with instead?
do they go to the temple?
assemble with non-believing Hebrews?
non-believing Hebrews who, in their unbelief, are still making sacrifices for sin?
hmm.
we need to spend more time here, preston.
you're right about that
and preston responded:
and i asked what scripture you were quoting, because that " . . . " isn't actually a quote from scripture.
so preston:
preston suggests that Hebrews 10:26 says when sin is present, there is no sacrifice for forgiveness, and that means no believer is secure in their salvation.
i disagree that this tells us there is no sacrifice for forgiveness when sin is present.
Christ has sacrificed Himself, once and for all ((re: Hebrews 10:14)) perfecting forever all who He is making holy -- so His sacrifice is always present. He is I AM. not constrained by time.
i disagree that Hebrews 10:26, in its context, is telling us that no believer is secure. just 12 'verses' prior, we are told that Jesus Christ has forever perfected the one whose trust is in Him. only 8 verses prior, we read this, His promise:
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
(Hebrews 10:17-18)
the next two verses proclaim the boldness we have to enter the most holy place because of His work for us. boldness where the high priest, only the high priest, once a year, only once a year, entered, and he, with a rope tied around his leg for fear he would be struck dead for sin or error and no one would be able to retrieve the body without likewise perishing. not bold, previously!!
why?
just 4 verses before what preston would have me believe is proof that we are fools to say we have assurance, we read this:
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
(Hebrews 10:22)
that doesn't say an assurance of works, btw. it says an assurance of faith
what comes 3 verses before what supposedly a reason to waver in our trust, to let go of believing that He has forever made us perfect, no more remembering our sin and iniquity, and is transforming us into an holy thing?
Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful that promised
(Hebrews 10:23)
(Hebrews 10:23)
His faithfulness endures forever
oh, now we're close to what i'm being told should make us doubt our security in His arms, which preston says negates our trust in the powerful working of His sacrifice, and nullifies the security of His salvation He has willed for us:
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching, for if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
(Hebrews 10:23-26)
you are right, preston. we should spend more time in the scriptures.
in these scriptures, there's a "for" pointing back as a reason that the statement before it is being made. let's exhort one another to love, and to do right. let's get together. because there's no more sacrifice.
hey, didn't he just say something about 'no more sacrifice' ?
yeah, hardly a paragraph ago, prefacing where we're at now: God's promise, that we're supposed to hold onto, and never waver from faith in. the thing to exhort one another with:
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
(Hebrews 10:17-18)
no more sacrifice for sin where sin and iniquity have all been forgotten. forgotten because one perfect sacrifice for all time has been made. don't forget that, the Word says
"it's good news"
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
(Hebrews 10:35)
(Hebrews 10:35)
so what's going on here, among these Hebrew believers, that the author is telling them to get together, don't neglect to meet with one another, because there's no more sacrifice for sin - because God has promised not to remember it?
where do religious Hebrew Christians in 1st century go, when they're not meeting with each other? who do they assemble with instead?
do they go to the temple?
assemble with non-believing Hebrews?
non-believing Hebrews who, in their unbelief, are still making sacrifices for sin?
hmm.
we need to spend more time here, preston.
you're right about that
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