Oh goody another OSAS thread!

You're still seeing the law of the spirit of life in Christ as a new set of rules to live by. It's not.

First, the law of the spirit of life (the law of liberty) is not an invention.


Second, I think it's the epitome of complication to say that we are subject to law that has been made obsolete, and we are dead to and not under. It's much, much simpler to talk about the law we are actually under (see first sentence)

As in Colossians 1:14, "through His blood" is a reference not limited to the fluid as if the blood has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism, but is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is also used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16).

It's the blood of Christ/totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin/Christ's finished work of redemption/death, burial and resurrection of Christ that is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we receive salvation.

Through faith and by faith are used interchangeably in Scripture and the end result is the same:

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 3:30 - since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16 - knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.

2 Timothy 3:15 - and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, BUT you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" This was BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:43-47. *Crystal clear for those who have eyes to see.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. *THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.

In regards to Romans 6:3-4, Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave.

*It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/romans/romans-6-3.html
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/romans/romans-6-4.html

"In addition" to receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45-47; 11:16-17) these Gentiles received the spiritual gift of tongues (which is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12). The baptism of the Holy Spirit had previously been prophesied and it was not merely to give believers the power to speak in tongues. Quit trying to explain away the obvious truth.

Mark 1:8 - I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 1:5 - for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

Acts 11:16 - And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ *Water baptism and Spirit baptism are clearly TWO DISTINCT BAPTISMS.

Salvation by water baptism is not the gospel that saves but is a "different" gospel. The gospel that saves is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). *Nothing there about water baptism. To obey the gospel is to BELIEVE the gospel by choosing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. *Not to trust in water baptism and other works as the means of our salvation, which is a perversion of the gospel and renders Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification" (Romans 4:24,25).

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water.

In Romans 10:16, we read - But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?” *So we can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Please prayerfully consider the truth.

Those who walk by the spirit (not law) do the righteousness required by the law of Moses. You keep trying to divide the law up into parts. We are under no obligation to any part of the law of Moses. We are either under all of it, or none of it. Period.

You're either being ignorant, or dishonest. Paul specifically wrote that the 10 commandments were made 'obsolete'. The Greek word actually means to render useless (entirely idle)

I can see now that you are trying to reconcile the contradiction by the invention of divvying the law into parts and choosing what parts to follow and what parts to ignore. That is just confusion and unscriptural.

No, I'm not, but apparently that's how you think I see it.

Your problem is you contradict yourself

on one hand, You say we are not saved by works

On the other hand, you say we are saved by what we do (our works)

If you can't get your own beliefs to agree, how do you expect to get the word of God to agree

To demonstrate the difference between the law of Moses and the law of liberty I'll use gravity as an example.

The law of liberty says something like, "All objects fall towards the earth". If I walk according to that law I can stay out of trouble.

The law of Moses says something like, "Thou shalt not step off of cliff without a parachute".

One is actual law, the other is a letter. That is the difference between the law of Moses and the law of the spirit of life in Christ. If I walk according to the latter I can stay out of trouble. There are numerous verses that state this fact explicitly.

CONTRADICT YOURSELF MUCH? That is a distinction without a difference.

I've heard many people say they believe we are not saved by works, but then turn around and contradict themselves all the time. A Roman Catholic tried to tell me that he does not believe we are saved by works, but then turned around and made this contradictory statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

I also had someone who attends the church of Christ try to tell me that he does not believe we are saved by works, but then turned around and made this contradictory statement below:

"It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us."

Such people seem to believe they found a loophole around passages of scripture, such as (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) by teaching we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works, but their arguments are flawed.

The bible says that if you follow a law that you must follow all of that law. We are no longer under any of the law of Moses- which has been nailed to the cross forevermore amen. You must understand that God's laws will never be deleted. But in the old testament, when they obeyed God's laws, they obeyed them physically under moses whereas we obey those same laws spiritually under Christ. So please understand, it was not God's law that was taken away, but the law of Moses- which is God's law obeyed physically. In the old testament they could not murder, in the new testament you cannot murder- God's law to not murder is still intact, and will always be.

So what's the difference? Under Christ if you hate your brother you are already guilty of murder because you went against God's law spiritually, and under Christ we must obey spiritually instead of physically (although sometimes it appears the same because we are still in physical bodies, so sometimes obeying God spiritually includes using our physical bodies to carry out the order).

Well, as for me, I have been blessed with a zeal t

We cannot dissect works of obedience/good works from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) and then teach that we are saved by "these" works (works of obedience/good works), but just not "those" works (works of the law). In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul did not say that we are saved through faith and works of obedience/good works, just not works of the law, yet that is what works-salvationists imply that he meant. Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. Likewise, in Titus 3:5, Paul said that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. so it is not merely "specific" works of the law but works in general

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of obedience/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So which good works could a Christian accomplish that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

Either we perfectly obeyed the law (impossible!) which includes the moral aspect of the law, and we are saved by works or else we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and receive His imputed righteousness (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9). *There is no middle ground. It's not Christ did most of it but we did some of it. Works of obedience/good works which follow saving faith in Christ are not to be added as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us.

We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24). Salvation through faith in Christ is the alternative to salvation by works. Either we are saved through faith or else we are saved through faith + works. *Either Christ did it all and is an ALL-sufficient Savior or else we did some of it and Christ is an IN-sufficient Savior (God forbid!).

*You cannot have it both ways.

Yes, 'faith' does get more specific- 'The Faith'- which is more than belief in God or belief that He will help you throughout your christian walk, it means belief in, and the practice of, His doctrine- which is the new testament- which includes belief, baptism, confession, repentance, and the whole kit and kabootle. What it all boils down to is that only Christ's blood saves a person from their sins, but these things lead you to Christ's blood. You cannot be saved by one of these things alone, not even by faith alone. And all of these things require obedience, including faith.

Our obedience, whether by faith or by works, CANNOT earn salvation (Christ's blood- which is God's grace), therefore we can obey to max effort and still grace will be a gift, because it's not that obedience won't be accepted as payment for our own sins- it's that it can't. So since God chooses some people and not other people to give grace to, it is up to him what that deciding factor will be. There are a billion deciding factors He can choose from- all of which cannot earn grace. But the deciding factor He has chosen He let us know so that we can receive the gift. His deciding factor is those who obey Him with all their heart. This is confusing to many because we go to work and our efforts earn a paycheck. We expercise to a long workout and we earn fitness.

Our efforts in this life do earn us may things. So it is hard to grasp the concept that we can work to obey God with all our mite, and still grace has to be a gift, but that He won't give it to those who don't even try to obey Him. Obedience does not earn it, but He chooses to give it to those who obey, and not to give it to those who don't obey. Even faith (simple belief) is obedience. It is impossible to not obey God and receive His grace.

We are not saved by works or by faith- both of which are on our part. The only thing that saves is Christ's blood- which is God's grace. Now other things which are on our part (belief, repentance, baptism, etc) only save in the way that they lead us to Christ's blood- just like an ambulance and a road save you only because they lead you to the emergency room where you are saved from death- the road nor the ambulance saved you, the surgeon did, but you would not have been saved if you didn't go through the road's path, so in that way the road saved you. (The surgeon representing Christ, and the road representing faith). But faith alone does not save, neither can baptism alone save.

Notice, ""Thou shalt not step off of cliff without a parachute". " is kept/upheld in both cases. No new law here, HeRose.

Oh I forgot to mention, look at the verse...

"It is by grace (Christ's blood) you have been saved, through faith." It does not say 'by faith' but 'through faith', so it does matter. We have to go through faith to get to grace- which is what saves.

I'm no more contradicting myself than Paul is:

"5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit "-1 Titus 3:5

"15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. "-1 Timothy 2:15

Now, explain why Paul is not contradicting himself, but when I say what Paul says I am.

You won't be able to explain it because you a product of the church that can only understand being saved by works as meaning you are justified by your works, and works earn your salvation. Mailmandan, too. You along with countless others in the church are literally incapable of reconciling the two passages above. The most you'll be able to come up with is to simply ignore what Paul (and Peter) said about what we do saving us. You can thank the misguided, uneducated church for that.

The law remains a complete whole.

What happens is because of the work of Christ on the cross the law is no longer the covenant between man and God by which we draw near to God (we do that now through faith in Christ). And his work makes it so some laws simply do not have to be LITERALLY fulfilled. They aren't destroyed, they aren't violated. They are fulfilled, not removed from the law. They are already fulfilled for us one time for all time by the finished work of Christ so that we have no remaining literal, physical obligation concerning those particular laws.

Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law. But the popular theology in the church today is that Christ did destroy the law and made it so Christians can be in violation of the law (and are) but that it doesn't matter now because of Christ.