Oh goody another OSAS thread!

PennEd · Jun 6, 2018

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d]Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that NONE OF THEM WERE OF US.

They went out means they went out with the true brethren to preach, but didn't stay with them and left BECAUSE THEY NEVER WERE OF THEM!.

NONE of them were true believers.
I know what your thoughts are already on this subject. What I don't know is what does "Sealed with the Holy Spirit" mean to YOU. Several places tell us we're sealed if we have been born again. Here is just one:

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the [b]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So are YOU sealed with the Holy Spirit or not?

justpassinthrough · Jun 6, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

again, no scripture but more opinion.

Tell me this, what more does it take to be saved than to believe?

which for a while believe,

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jun 6, 2018

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

NoNameMcgee said:

more scripture in context for your man made doctrine that rejects the truth

(since you lie and pretend i havent been using it i will use a small portion of what i have posted already to back up the truth of eternal security)

mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root

their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth
____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

again no root... not born again
no enduring faith

trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him

(like the reprobate)

never born again

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________

20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

we are those who no doubt continue in the faith
______________
1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

________
not those who fall away into unbelief

bump for you

The condition for salvation is to believe.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

lest they should believe and be saved.

Those who believe are saved.

Please provide a scripture that teaches us a person who believes for a while then returns to unbelieving is still saved.

JPT

NoNameMcgee · Jun 6, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

your silly strawmen will get you nowhere

you are proving yourself to be a dishonest lover of arguments who pushes a false gospel

obviously unbelievers are not saved
and i never suggested they were

at any point

they weren't saved when they pretended to have faith

they weren't saved when they had a dead faith not recieving a new heart or quickened spirit

and they weren't saved after they walked away from the "knowledge" of the truth

they simply were never saved
never made new
never rooted in Christ despite hearing the truth

but true believers

were saved
and are saved
and remain saved

just like they did believe
they do believe
and they will believe

just like the many many scriptures i have already posted that you reject explain clearly for those with eyes to see

ill pray for you

:/

PS · Jun 6, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

The census returns indicate a rise in atheism and as there is no sign of revival we have to assume those who have lost their faith are either cultist, humanist, agnostic, or atheist. I have never known anyone regain their faith, so sad to say when people abandon God, their salvation is gone forever unless it is a simple case of backsliding. These are the people we read about in the Bible, who have made a shipwreck of their faith. They must have believed in God initially or they could not have forsaken the Lord and gone astray.

mailmandan · Jun 6, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Believers do not reject the knowledge of the truth. They do not draw back to perdition, but instead - BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL (Hebrews 10:39).

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' *Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will be saved (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? *Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

mailmandan · Jun 6, 2018

PS said:

They received the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet THERE WAS NO HEART SUBMISSION TO THE KNOWLEDGE. Not saved! Knowledge alone, even the more intimate knowledge of "epignosis," does not automatically save a person if they reject this knowledge, although it will make them more accountable at the judgment of unbelievers if they deliberately reject the way of righteousness after knowing it. *Judas Iscariot is a good example.

The dog and pig in this context picture their temporary, external change resulting from the knowledge of the truth, yet these false teachers did not become "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Peter 1:4) but only temporarily, escaped the pollutions of the world. They had never experienced a changed heart and been made new creatures in Christ, they only experienced a cosmetic change (outward) which explains why they went back to the vomit and the mud. Their nature remained the same. They were never sheep.

mailmandan · Jun 6, 2018

PS said:

***COMPARE: 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust.

WITH

2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

***Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature.

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

mailmandan · Jun 6, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Let me explain the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

***Unlike saving faith, temporary shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons "believe" mental assent that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. YOU CALL THAT SAVED?

Cee · Jun 6, 2018

PS said:

Please notice it says, "they", not "we". It's written about those who were close, but didn't believe Jesus for their salvation. I believe the reason they are worse off is because if they didn't believe now, it's more difficult for them to come to saving knowledge because of "familiarity bias". But like I said, there are so many simple Scriptures that teach we are eternally saved. So we need to let them speak and then Scriptures like these that appear to contradict need to be studied more carefully. Where we fall into error is if we ignore them. I don't ignore the hard Scriptures, I try to make sense of them in comparison to the rest.

justpassinthrough · Jun 6, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Dishonest?

LOL

You can't even answer a simple question and give an honest answer.

Is a person of believes for a while then no longer believes a believer or an unbeliever?

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Jesus says that a person who believes is saved.

lest they should believe and be saved.

Do you agree or disagree?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Here in this group, these believe for a while, then fall away.

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Where these saved when they believe?

Jesus says they were saved, when they believe.

Then later they no longer believe, and therefore are no longer believers, and thus they are no longer saved.

Now you know why OSAS is a false demonic doctrine, that causes people to depart from the faith.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons

JPT

mailmandan · Jun 6, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

*See post #1009.

I can't name one believer that I know who believes OSAS that has departed from the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods (sounds like Roman Catholicism) which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Greek tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults and false religions. *That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church began to come into existence in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. This same church has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..

joefizz · Jun 6, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

The condition for salvation is to believe.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

lest they should believe and be saved.

Those who believe are saved.

Please provide a scripture that teaches us a person who believes for a while then returns to unbelieving is still saved.

JPT

There Is"No such thing".

justpassinthrough · Jun 6, 2018

joefizz said:

Exactly.

So those who believe for a while are saved for awhile.

JLB

joefizz · Jun 6, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Not exactly I was referring to that there is "no such thing" as the "circumstance" you clearly wanted no name to "jump on",because while John 3:16 and others similar to it speak of "believing" there is a difference between "claiming to believe" in Jesus and "sincerely believing" in Jesus to be saved and receive the Holy spirit as even Jesus himself said concerning judgment day "many will say unto me Lord Lord"(I'm sure you know the scripture).
Allow me to "clarify what I mean" many are known as "believing" especially today yet their "heart's" do not "know" Jesus many "go to church" or "use Jesus's name" in a variety of ways typically for "self promotion" or to "look good" but particularly just "like what they hear" about Jesus.
This is often why "sincere believers" and "claimed believers" get thrown into the same boat because the "claimed believers" believe Jesus will "understand" them sinning willfully and will be "forgiven" and not face hell or the lake of fire only because they "believe" what they "like to hear" and thus "reject" Jesus because they "accept" him in "portion" not in "whole" and unfortunately give a bad reputation to "sincere believers" because they themselves are in "unbelief" and thereby "confusing" others of "unbelief".
It's "tough" to know "one's heart" but even so it's possible to discern between one of "unbelief" and "actual belief" there is no "switching back and forth" between "unbelief" and "belief" you either believe in Jesus and accept him "entirely" or you don't believe in him and reject him "entirely" there is no "accepting him in part or portion".

PS · Jun 6, 2018

mailmandan said:

These "beloved" people had given their hearts to the Lord and were earnestly seeking to grow in the faith. Peter warned them against the unlearned false teachers who were heading towards their own destruction. Proof if proof were needed that believing Christian teachers can have a false understanding that leads themselves and others to perdition. We are only secure if we keep looking to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is the way the truth and the life. Beware the false teachers on the internet. The apostle Peter continues:

(16) As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
(18) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
(2Pe 3:16-18 KJV)

It would pay people to read the whole chapter with a humble and seeking heart and ask themselves why would Peter be warning them against false teachers if their salvation is secure.

PS · Jun 7, 2018

Cee said:

The apostle Peter is simply saying people can go back into the world, and if they do their end is worse than their beginning.

2Pe 2:20 ERV
People can be made free from the evil in the world. They can be made free by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they go back into those evil things and are controlled by them, then it is worse for them than it was before.

So much for being always saved.

Cee · Jun 7, 2018

PS said:

So hell is worse off for people who were once saved? Is that what you really believe? Sounds like a new doctrine I wasn't aware of. Got 2 more Scriptures for this?

PS · Jun 7, 2018

Cee said:

Please notice it says, "they", not "we". It's written about those who were close, but didn't believe Jesus for their salvation. I believe the reason they are worse off is because if they didn't believe now, it's more difficult for them to come to saving knowledge because of "familiarity bias". But like I said, there are so many simple Scriptures that teach we are eternally saved. So we need to let them speak and then Scriptures like these that appear to contradict need to be studied more carefully. Where we fall into error is if we ignore them. I don't ignore the hard Scriptures, I try to make sense of them in comparison to the rest.

We are eternally saved providing we keep looking to Jesus for our salvation. Keep on the narrow path that leads to life. Only a few find it.

Cee · Jun 7, 2018

PS said:

That would mean:

1) We don't become a new creation.
2) We will get eternal life, we don't "have" eternal life.
3) We aren't truly dead to the old man and alive to the new man.

The truth that we become a new creation, we die to ourselves and are reborn in Him, have passed from death into life, and now its not us who live, but Christ who lives doesn't match up with the idea that we are simply "looking for Jesus" for our salvation.

The moment we believe we ARE saved. Our faith overcomes the world. The only scenario in my mind that works and keeps Scripture in agreement is they were never saved to begin with.

Oh goody another OSAS thread!

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