Not By Works

What is your analysis of 2 Pet 2:20-22

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
I do not see how it matters who these people were before they escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ. We are all sinners before we come to Christ. But Peter says they escaped (past tense) the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus. If this is not the textbook definition of a truly saved Christian I do not know what is.

He then says that if they are again entangled in the pollutions of the world then this state is worse than the first. The first condition
was that of unbelief and ultimate damnation. That must mean that a believer who turns back from the holy commandment delivered to them they will be damned to a lower place in hell than those who never believed

Yes. What’s shocking is you don’t seem to understand that I didn’t come up with the example of the pregnant woman.

I just simply stated a real truth about people and the choices they make.


Sorry you don’t like truth.


JPT

So you believe that people who no longer believe are still saved?

You do understand that means you believe unbelievers are saved.


JPT

I agree.

You can not be a little bit born again.

I never said otherwise.


The person was pregnant.

The person rejected the life within.

The person is no longer pregnant.


Case Closed.

You can not be a little bit born again.

I never said otherwise.


The person was pregnant.

The person rejected the life within.

The person is no longer pregnant.



JPT

My point addressed the person who said being born again is like being pregnant, in which no one is a little bit pregnant.


How about this analogy.

A person can not be a little bit married.

They are or they aren’t.

However a husband can indeed divorce his wife for being unfaithful.


Likewise Jesus our husband can divorce us for being unfaithful.


Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. James 4:4



JPT

One thing is obvious...the very verses they use out of context in Hebrews to prove the loss of salvation actually proves eternal security...there is not one verse in the bible that states that one who is sealed by the Holy Spirit is unsealed for any reason.....the amount of scripture that must be rejected, denied, twisted, skewed, embellished etc....to teach such foolishness goes beyond ridiculous....

I think 2 Pet 2:20-23 definitively disproves eternal security.

2 Pet 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
I do not see how it matters who these people were before they escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus Christ. We are all sinners before we come to Christ. But Peter says they escaped (past tense) the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Jesus. If this is not the textbook definition of a truly saved Christian I do not know what is.

He then says that if they are again entangled in the pollutions of the world then this state is worse than the first. The first condition
was that of unbelief and ultimate damnation. That must mean that a believer who turns back from the holy commandment delivered to them they will be damned to a lower place in hell than those who never believed

Last time LOOSE YOUR PRESUPPOSITIONS, THEY ARE DEAD WRONG ABOUT WHAT WE BELIEVE.

Only Believer enter the NARROW GATE, so called PHONY CHRISTIANS enter the WIDE GATE. UNBELIEVERS are not even mentioned in the Parable of the GATES.

I believe what the BIBLE actually SAYS:

Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV)
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


Phony Christians, or False Christians, Pretend Christians, or Pseudo Christians, NEVER WERE REAL CHRISTIANS, NOT EVEN FOR A DAY.
The NARROW GATE IS MUCH NARROWER THAN YOU EVER THOUGHT. You MUST be BORN AGAIN, and NONE of those truly BORN AGAIN, will every lose they SALVATION, and ALL OF BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS WILL NEVER ABANDON THE FAITH, Because CHRIST WILL KEEP US IN THE FAITH, and HE WILL COME TO TAKE US HOME.

REREAD MY PREVIOUS POSTS.

I will give you a little to think about.

I saw how mad you got when you thought someone implied something that you personally did not believe or say.

You have constantly said all kinds of things that were a LIE about our Beliefs, and you will not learn, nor apologize for getting it wrong. How mad should we get?

I think we have controlled our disgust about you MISQUOTING what we believe about a certain subject.
Yes I know, that is what some teachers taught you, about our beliefs, and he was more misinformed than you are.
How about you really listen to what we say we belief in, instead of formulate question designed to substantiate, what you erroneously THINK we believe.

I do not care if you want to disagree afterwards, but Please quote our Beliefs Accurately, or just ask what we believe on a certain subject. Wouldn't that be a lot more respectful, than Two Questions that are based on ERRORS about our beliefs.

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.

Jer 14:7 "Though our iniquities testify against us, act, O LORD, for your name's sake; for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against you.

Hos 11:7 My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all.

Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.

Gal 4:8 But then indeed, not knowing God, you served them who, by nature, are not gods. But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known by God: how turn you again to the weak and needy elements which you desire to serve again?

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."

There are more.

Also parents can dispossess their children.

Children can runaway from their parents.

Both can separate from the other, and so it is with our Heavenly Father. God does not hold onto us against our will and keep us prisoner.

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ
was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time,
not to bear sin, but TO BRING SALVATION to those who are WAITING for him.

Romans 8:24-25 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all.
Who hopes for what he already has? But IF WE HOPE FOR WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE YET we wait for it patiently.

2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For
WHAT IS SEEN IS TEMPORARY, but WHAT IS UNSEEN IS ETERNAL.

THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO CLAIM TO HAVE ALREADY POSSESSED ETERNAL SALVATION. DO THEY NO LONGER WAIT FOR THE LORD TO BRING THEM
SALVATION SINCE THEY ALREADY POSSESS IT? ARE THEY NOT GOING TO FACE
JUDGMENT ANYMORE?

Philippians 3:12-16 NOT that I have already OBTAINED all this, or have ALREADY BEEN
MADE PERFECT, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.
Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting
what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward THE GOAL to win the
prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. All of us who are MATURE
should take such a view of things. And if on some point YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY, that too
God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have ALREADY ATTAINED.

1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving THE GOAL OF YOUR FAITH, the SALVATION of your
souls.

SALVATION IS THE GOAL OF THOSE WHO ARE WAITING FOR HIM, THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST OF WHICH HE IS THE SAVIOR.

OSAS IS A FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE THAT NULLIFIES THE WORD OF GOD.

Mark 7:6-13 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it
is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They
worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ You have let go of the
commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them:
“YOU HAVE A FINE WAY OF SETTING ASIDE THE COMMANDS OF GOD in order to
observe your own traditions! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,
‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man
says to his father or mother: ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me
is Corban’ (that is, a gift devoted to God), then YOU NO LONGER LET HIM DO ANYTHING for his father or mother. THUS YOU NULLIFY THE WORD OF GOD by your tradition that you have handed down. AND YOU DO MANY THINGS LIKE THAT.”

JESUS SAID;

“If you love me, you will obey what I command.” john 14:15

…” If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”matthew 19:17

“ Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me
will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not
Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.” john
14:21-24

THIS FALSE MANMADE DOCTRINE TEACHES THAT OBEDIENCE TO GOD IS JUST A WORK THAT MAN CAN DO BUT HAVE NO PART, NEITHER ESSENTIAL NOR NECESSARY FOR SALVATION WHICH CONTRADICTS THE FF:

Hebrews 5:7-9 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with
loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of
his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
and, once made perfect, he became the source of ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO
OBEY HIM.

A QUOTE FROM ElAmor’s POST

2 John 1:4-11 It has given me great joy to find some of your children WALKING IN THE TRUTH,
just as the Father COMMANDED US. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command
but one we have had FROM THE BEGINNING. I ask that we love one another. And this is love:
that we WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning,
his command is that you WALK IN LOVE. Many DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus
Christ as COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the
DECEIVER and the ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for,
but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who RUNS AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE in
the TEACHING OF CHRIST does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both
the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take
him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES IN HIS WICKED
WORK.

Who are those RUNNING AHEAD and DOES NOT CONTINUE IN THE TEACHING OF
CHRIST?

They are those who CLAIM SALVATION is by Faith ALONE and ONCE SAVED they are
ALWAYS SAVED therefore rejecting God’s Laws and commands which are in fact God’s own
words. says that even obedience to God cannot save anyone because they are works and
Faith ALONE saves.

Who then is the deceiver and the ANTICHRIST? They are those who do not continue in the teaching about WALKING IN LOVE which is
WALKING IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. Who do not acknowledge Jesus as coming in
the flesh by the mere fact that they reject the LAW that prophesied about Jesus as coming in the flesh.

1 John 2:1-6 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin,
we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is
the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. THE MAN WHO SAYS, “I KNOW HIM,” BUT DOES NOT DO WHAT HE COMMANDS IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS
NOT IN HIM. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is
how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him MUST WALK AS JESUS DID.””””””””

WE ARE TO WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION NOT AS INDIVIDUALS WORKING FOR HIS
OWN SALVATION BUT AS ONE BODY IN CHRIST(eph 4:1-16) WORKING AS GOOD AND
FAITHFUL SERVANTS OF GOD(mat 25:14-30) WHO ARE LIVING ACCORDING TO THE
SPIRIT AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE.(rom 8:1-17)

WE HONOR AND
GLORIFY GOD BY THESE WORKS OF LOVE, FAITH AND OBEDIENCE THAT BEARS
GOOD FRUITS THAT WILL LAST..(john 15:6-17)

Luke 3:9 the ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good
fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

1 Peter 1:3-7 Praise to God for a living hope Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a LIVING HOPE through the
resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil
or fade—kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming
of the SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.
These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though
refined by fire—may be PROVED GENUINE and may result in praise, glory and honor when
Jesus Christ is revealed.

2 Peter 1:5-11 For this very reason, make every effort to ADD TO YOUR FAITH goodness; and
to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and
to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness,
love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being
INEFFECTIVE and UNPRODUCTIVE in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone
does not have them, he is nearsighted and BLIND, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his PAST SINS. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling
and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a
rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:1-3 To the Church in Sardis “To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I
know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. Wake up!
Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in
the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; OBEY IT
AND REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at
what time I will come to you.

Galatians 6:7-8 DO NOT BE DECEIVED, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED. A man reaps what
he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap
destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

John 7:17-18 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes
from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for
himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

“DEAD FAITH CANNOT SAVE” ))james 2:14-26)

“LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR” rom 3:4

If God has done the work of regeneration and transformed a person, then I don't believe that person can ever go astray.
I think Jesus was referring to such when He said all that the Father has given me will be saved. Nobody will snatch them out of my Fathers hand.
I believe when a person is truly saved, they can never lose their salvation no matter what comes against them

You need to be teaching people to continue in the faith, and to hold fast to the word of salvation, so they will receive the salvation of their soul.


Teach people
If you believe what the scripture actually says, then you believe what Jesus plainly said.

Lest they believe and are saved.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

These in this first group, they never had the chance to believe, because the devil stole the seed, the Gospel Message, from their heart, before they can believe and be saved.

In this next group, Jesus is teaching us about people who are being persecuted, FOR BEING BELIEVERS.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediatelyreceives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.


These people did in fact believe and were saved, in which they were being persecuted because they were Christians.


Please actually read what the scriptures are teaching and stop making things that are not in the Bible.


People who are persecuted for being Christian must stand strong and remain faithful even unto death.


Jesus said it this way of those believers who are persecuted-

• But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Thenmany false prophets will rise up anddeceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will growcold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdomwill be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14


Please understand what is being said here.

But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdomwill be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

do you understand what “witness” is referring to?

It the word for martyr!!!

Christian’s who are persecuted and die for their faith are martyrs, because the gave witness to the truth with their life.

Christian’s who are persecuted and turn away from Christ to save their life, will lose their eternal life.


35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” Mark 8:35-37



JPT

"Whosoever loses his life for My sake and the Gospel's will save it", I'm sure He didn't mean to lose ones life in a literal sense although one may very well lose it as well. I think He also meant, we lose our worldly lives when we are saved and follow Him.
To follow Christ costs us everything, so it's like losing the life we had before we started following Christ.
I thought I'd mention that, because most of us probably won't have our lives threatened as a result of following Jesus.

If a person is saved, then the devil can not take them away from God.


However, this does not mean the person can of their own freewill walk away, or abandon Christ.


The biblical phrase is depart from.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

• For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

This is what is being discussed in the parable of the sower.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away [G868].



Fall away is the same Greek word used in 1 Timothy 4:1 and Hebrews 3:12, which is rendered "depart from"


Strongs # 868 - aphistēmi

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

JPT

We can only live by faith and we deceive ourselves if we think we can obey Gods commandments. If we could keep the commandments, then Christ didn't need to come into the world to pay for our sins and justify us through faith.
We are not justified or made righteous through keeping the commandments, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Once God saves us from our sin, He will never lose a single person He has ever saved. So you're wrong, saying a truly saved person can lose his salvation.
God is the One who saves us and you're saying God is a loser, I tell you God will never lose one single person which He saved through His Son.
You can't mix the old and new covenants into one, Christ did away with the old covenant. Faith by works is dead, works by faith is alive.

I believe there are people who are alive today, and are on this forum who will be alive when Jesus returns, which means they will face great persection.


Persecution is coming to America.


Just because America has seen persection like their is is the Middle east, doesn't change the truth of what Jesus is teaching.


People who cling to worldy things and lifestyle probably won't endure to the end.



Peter says it this way -


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Receiving the salvation of our soul is the end result of a life of faith: a faithful life unto the Lord.


Now we have salvation through faith in our Lord, which by default means we have not yet received the salvation of our soul, but rath what we have is the substance of the salvation we are hoping for.


Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for.


If we depart from the faith, we no longer have the substance of the thing hoped for, which is salvation.


This word "substance" [G5287] is also rendered "confidence" in Hebrews 3:14


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence [substance of our faith G5287] steadfast to the end,


That is why the devil raises up doctrines that will cause people to depart from the faith.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


OSAS is one of those doctrines, that if believed, will cause the Christian to disregard the scriptures, and their faith, thinking they can never lose their salvation, of which they haven't actually received until the end.


Until we stand before our Lord and are Judged according to our deeds, and we hear these words.



Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34





JPT