The cultic origins of Annihilationism

We have to struggle sometimes to question what we've always been told and taught.

A woman was preparing dinner for her new mother-in-law. The woman came early to help her daughter-in-law with the dinner. She watched the young woman take a beautiful roast out of the refrigerator and cut off the end, throw it in the trash, place the meat in a roasting pan and then pop it in the oven.

She asked why the end of the roast would be wasted in such a manner. The young bride said: because that is the way you prepare and cook a roast.

A discussion ensued and they were both became very angry with one another. The old woman saw gross waste and the young woman saw only unreasonableness and was convinced she was doing the roast correctly, even though she couldn't explain why the end had to be cut off.

After the dinner was over, dishes had been done, and the mother-in-law left, the young bride called her own mother to tell her how awful the dinner had been.

She said, mom, that woman was just awful to me and kept insisting I was doing the roast wrong because I cut the end off and threw it away.

The mother said: why would you cut the end off and throw it away?

The daughter replied, because that's the way you always did it!

The mother said, dear, I only did that because I didn't have a roasting pan big enough to fit the roast in.

Cee, that phrase "where the fire is not quenched" means on-going torment in flame and not annihilation nor cessation of torment.

Progressive revelation is a valid biblical construct. But further revelation on a particular topic will never completely contradict previous revelation, as you seem to believe regarding death. The OT explicitly states that in death there is no thought, no emotion, no knowledge, no work, no praising of God, etc. Any further NT revelation on the topic of death cannot contradict what is plainly stated in the OT.

For crying out loud, Nehemiah... The woman had a devil spirit. It wasn't Samuel, it was a devil spirit impersonating Samuel. It was a seance.

1 Sam 28:
6) And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Do you see that the Lord had STOPPED answering Saul? Do you really believe that God would contact Saul in a manner that he expressly FORBADE the Israelites from doing? Do you know WHY God forbade Israel from trying to contact the dead? Because THEY ARE DEAD, and cannot answer. Contacting the dead is enlisting the participation of devil spirits, who will be only too happy to accommodate you..

That's true. It doesn't necessarily follow.

But from the rich man and lazarus, it does appear that there is some form of awareness and the story/parable takes place before the judgement, not after, because the mans brothers are still alive and on earth before the time to repent is over.

There is also the verse that says Jesus preached to those in hell. There had to be some awareness in order to hear Him.

So I was proposing the possibility that maybe some of the OT verses had to do with after the second death. I'm trying to put it all together and learn just like all of us. (Except for the few who always insist they have all knowledge on a matter. )

I will have to pool all of the relevant verses and examine them all when I have time. Some could be referring to after the first death and some could be referring to after the second death...it's a possibility.

Well...I look to understand all of the verses together.

The ones I gave above seem to be in some tension to the thought that we sleep.

It does also appear to me, however, that something has changed since Jesus died. Because He did not reassure the thief on the cross that he would go and sleep, as Daniel was told, but instead said the thief would be with Him (Jesus).

So Lazarus in the grave was pre-Jesus' death on the cross.

There are also those martyred who cry from beneath the altar for justice. They seem to have some awareness.

And of course there is the verse, post Jesus' death, which says: and they saw many of their dead walking around.

I want to understand all of the verses together.

Responding to what I highlighted in red...

1 Pet 3:
18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

First, Jesus did that after he was "quickened by the spirit". IOW, after he was resurrected. The word for "preached" is "kerusso" and it means to herald or proclaim something. It is not the normal word for "preach". Jesus went to herald or proclaim his victory over death. And who were the spirits he heralded his victory to? Not the spirits of dead people, but devil spirits who caused all the evil during the time of Noah (see v20 above). I believe this ties in with 2 Pet 2:4 and Jude 6. The devil spirits that caused the Nephilim during the time of Noah were imprisoned by God, thrown into Tartarus. These demons gave up their freedom to try and prevent the Messiah from coming. After he was resurrected by the Father, Jesus went to Tartarus in his resurrected body and made sure they knew they had failed in what they had tried to accomplish: prevent the Christ from coming.

Not really in the mood to argue today. I'll let the Scriptures speak for themselves.

Matt 3:12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Completely burning up the chaff.

Psalm 1:4 Not so the wicked! For they are like chaff driven off by the wind.

The wicked are like ashes that are blown away by the wind.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

This is the Scripture Jesus was quoting. They (believers) will see the dead bodies of men. And it will be a memorial of those who rebelled against God. People take this Scripture to believe there is fire worms in hell. Lol. Not at all what its saying, it's about completely consuming those who rebelled against God.

Isaiah 14:11 Your pomp has been brought down to Sheol, with the music of your harps. Maggots spread out beneath you, and worms cover you.

Here's a fun one describing "hell". What do maggots and worms do? Consume everything.

Jeremiah 17:27 But if you do not listen to Me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying a load while entering the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then will I kindle an unquenchable fire in its gates to consume the citadels of Jerusalem.

Here God talks about the unquenchable fire. It's quite a tourist attraction in Jerusalem. You know that fire that is still burning forever and ever in Jerusalem that can't be put out? Oh you've never heard of it. Yeah me either. Because it's not an eternal flame. It's a flame that won't be put out until it accomplishes it's purpose.

Jeremiah 7:20 Therefore, this is what the Lord GOD says: Behold, My anger, My fury, will be poured out on this place, on man and beast, on the trees of the field and the produce of the land, and it will burn and not be extinguished.

Another example. Yet, this fire has been put out.

You might be thinking, yeah but what about the NT. Cool. How about a NT example?

Jude 1:7 In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.

These cities are NOT still burning for all to see. They are ashes.

2 Peter 2:6 and He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, having reduced them to ashes, having set an example of what is coming on the ungodly;

There you go ashes is what is coming to the ungodly.

As far as the Parable of Lazarus and Abraham?

This is so obviously a parable.

Luke 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

This is written about the Pharisees, notice the words Father Abraham. The Pharisees thought they were saved because of Abraham.

Notice they ask to have Lazarus dip his finger in water and put it on their tongue. Does your doctrine of eternal torment teach that unbelievers can ask believers to come by and cool off their tongues? Of course not. Imagine your entire body burning, forever and ever, and you're like wow if only I could have a drop of water. That's not all what this parable is teaching.

It's about the Pharisees not loving people and their need for a savior. Look at the colors they are wearing. It's also considered a contrast between Israel and Gentiles (the dogs). Not to be used as a doctrine for eternal torment.

I can keep giving more and more Scripture examples, but I'm sure this is enough for now.

I'm not saying you are wrong about all things. I'm not saying you are right about all things.
I'm saying, as I always do, that there are always verses and there are always verses in tension to those verses. I try to take them BOTH into account.

Yes, I believe they came out of their graves. Why would I think they were like zombies...? And how could I think they rose of their own accord?

Yes, it does not suggest they had awareness all along. Neither does it suggest they did not have awareness all along.

Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be with Jesus that day in paradise. It doesn't seem to support sleep, as was said in the OT.

Those dead seen walking around supports the thought that when we died before Jesus versus when we die after Jesus, that there is a difference.

I can't change my post now, but I just reread it. And I'm sorry if my tone appears to be rude. I was trying to be descriptive, but it came off as belittling. This is an annoying topic for me because it's one of those topics that people rarely change their mind on. Yet I can't seem to not discuss it because it's such a big deal in the grand scheme of understanding the gospel. But Scripture IS overwhelmingly on the side of annihilationism. Do a word search for "ashes" and see how often it comes up.

"God didn't want people to perish so He sent His Son so they could have eternal life."

Take away all religion and ask yourself what is the most literal interpretation of this statement?

To perish IS an eternal consequence. To gain eternal life is an eternal reward.

Here's another NT Scripture about this:

Hebrews 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

It didn't come across as belittling to me. But only you know what impatience and frustration was in your heart. I liked the post.

I want to find all of the verses and compare changes between OT and NT, and see if some of them seem to be talking of the first death and some of the second death.

It makes complete sense to me that this could be so because the same thing happens with endtimes verses (or at least those of us who believe our gathering together is pre-trib have noted a difference between some verses that suggests some are concerning our gathering and others concerning post millennium, even though we may have been viewing them all as describing the same time period/event.

Awesome, thanks for the feedback. God is an ALL consuming fire. He consumes His enemies. Fire is for consuming.

Here is an interesting thing. If you look up "torment" in the Greek and all the instances of it. You may see how it's continually translated differently. The same is with hell. There are 4 different Greek words for the Latin word, "hell". Hell and Repentance came on the scene when Jerome translated the Bible into Latin. Unfortunately many of those doctrinal biases still exist in the translation process.

Here's torment in Greek:
http://biblehub.com/greek/928.htm

Here's hell in Greek:
http://biblehub.com/greek/1067.htm

Here's Sheol in Hebrew (translated as hell/grave):
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7585.htm

Unquenchable fire says it all, cee, which is referring to those in the fire. It infers unending torment in flame I.e. unquenchable.

Psalm 1:4

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You ever stop to consider that these scriptures that you are providing are speaking of the body?

Isaiah 66:24

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These scriptures that you are providing are not supporting your claim, "their fire shall not be quenched" would infer on-going punishment flame. Again, "not be quenched" is referring to the torment in flame not ceasing.

Sheol which synonymous with Hades, is defined as the place of departed spirits. The scripture above is referring to the spirit that goes down to Sheol/Hades and the worms/maggots is in reference to his decaying body upon the earth.

I don't even know why you would use the scripture above to disprove everlasting fire with a reference to burning down Jerusalem's gates? If the fire is put out, then it wouldn't be unquenchable or everlasting fire, would it. It would be a contradiction in terms.

Jude 1:7

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Yes, their bodies have been burned up, but their spirits are in Sheol/Hades still burning! You are not proving anything with these scriptures.

You haven't provided any scriptures to support your claim.

Why is it that you and others adopt existing false teachings and repeat them? I have heard this regarding the Pharisees and Abraham teaching before many times, which means that you did not come to this conclusion, but are just repeating it. Very sad!

Parables use symbolism to represent the literal. They do not use real names such as the rich man and Lazarus does, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets and the literal place of Hades. This is an event that took place prior to Jesus appearing in the flesh that He is relating to the readers. It demonstrates the conscious awareness of the spirit after death, such as with Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man, that there is eternal punishment in flame and that once you die in your sins there is no coming back. Your record is sealed. But you people, in order to get rid of that information, you call it a parable in order to circumvent it, distorting it.

The confusion concerning the term dead is what causes all the division....the word carries the idea of separation and that is the best way to view the word.....when one dies their spirit/soul is separated from their body which becomes inanimate......and that is the concept that is overlooked....

A lost man who is spiritually dead will be separated from God for all eternity in the lake of fire <--this is the truth and the biblical application of the word dead as applied to one who is spiritually dead and cast into the lake of fire.

Think abut the following verses....what is the point if one is dead, gone and not cognitive...why would they need to be JUDGED according to their works if their lot is to close their eyes, fall into oblivion and NOT KNOW ANYTHING or be cognitive? It makes NO logical sense whatsoever at all to pull the dead out of the sea, death and hell to judge the by their works and then cast the into the lake of fire if they will be oblivious and or not aware of anything that is happening or has happened.....but if the above underlined is applied...it makes complete sense....

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And Hades and death were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

2288 thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation

Okay so just so I'm clear. What you're saying is this: Scripture says they are ashes (their body), but then you add in there that their spirits are still burning... even though none of those Scriptures say anything like that?

Now in order for this paradigm to be true. This would mean that unbelievers have a spirit, hades is a place where spirits are burning, the spirit doesn't get destroyed, it is eternal... even independent of God.

Do we agree?

Yes, I am aware of how the doctrine of eternal torment has changed the meaning of the word death to mean eternal spiritual separation from God into an unending lake of fire in order to prove itself. But it's not at all the most literal translation. It needs to be taught like you are doing now. This is how doctrinal paradigms are formed. No, it doesn't mean death of the body... it means... whatever you want the person to see it as.

You really need to learn to discern between body and spirit when reading scripture. If a persons body is consumed by fire, that does not mean that his spirit is consumed as well. Also, the reference to "ashes" would also be in reference to the body, not the spirit.

There are only 3 words translated as hell:

Tartarus = is only used once by peter and described by Jude in regards to the angels who sinned and were put into dungeons in chains of darkness kept until the day of the great white throne judgment.

Hades = The place of the departed spirits of the unrighteous after the death of the body. Hades is the same place as Sheol.

Gehenna/Geenna = the valley of Hinnom where they burned their trash and animals where the fire continued to burn, which was used as figuratively as a comparison representing the lake of fire.

géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).

Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment

Below is the correct rendering of Hades/Sheol:

hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

Or shol {sheh-ole'}; from sha'al; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates

Hades is never referring to the grave, tomb or sepulcher, but to the place where the unrighteous spirits depart.

qeber (Hebrew) and Mnemeion (Greek) are the correct words representing tomb, grave and sepulcher.