Christian holidays vs Biblical holidays

I have been more than completely honest and open with you about why I believe the way I do, including my belief that God is interested in us "subduing our worldly mind" more than trees and animals and rocks and I posted one scripture regarding Cain where I believe this intent is shared with us.

This has all been about justifying your religious tradition of rejecting some of God's Laws. It is obvious you don't agree with the arguments I put forward, compelling as they are. I see no reason to continue this seemingly endless questions and inquisition given you pretty much ignore the reasons I give for my understanding anyway. It seems even if I do give more scriptures which support my belief that God is more interested in our minds than He is in rocks and trees and dirt, that you will just move on to another question, and on and on and on. The discussion seems pretty much one sided.

You and I see the scriptures differently.

I'm fine with that.

While Abraham could have known as well as Adam surely did that God would redeem His creation and bring forth salvation, "Passover" didn't occur until over 400 years after Abraham, in the Exodus.

In Genesis 15:13-14 God informs Abraham that his descendents will be in bondage in a foreign land but that He will bring them out and punish that land, but He doesn't say Egypt and doesn't give the details of the 10th plague.

But that is the same argument you make regarding the "LAW" that was ":ADDED" 430 years after Abraham. You say that because Paul says "Law" he must be speaking about every law that God ever gave His People. I argue that God has His Law, given to Abraham and Noah, and their Children, and that He "added" a Priesthood, given to the Levites that was compiled of "Works" performed for the remission of sin, "till the Seed should Come". A "Law of Works" that Abraham didn't have.

I have asked before, what was this "ADDED" Law "ADDED" to? What was being transgressed that prompted God to "ADD" a " Law of Works"?

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

yes, Jesus is the word made flesh. yes he made all things including the laws and Commandments.

Abraham had laws from God. The question is, which ones?

Yes Christ's day was seen by Abraham.

yes Zachariah recognized Jesus.

Yes the Pharisees did not recognize Jesus.

now we come to the really good part

That's correct, the above paragraph is not speculation. What is speculation is saying that Abraham did not do physical work on the Sabbath.

why the question? Because it appears that in the early part of the old Testament especially, the laws were given over time. for example the commandment not to eat blood with animal meat probably wasn't given to Adam. Do you think Adam was commanded not to eat meat with blood in it?

it also looks like Abraham is not given the commandment to be physically circumcised until he is very old, because he is not physically circumcised has a young man. since we know that Abraham kept God's laws that he had and he wasn't circumcised until he was an old man he must not have had the commandment to be physically circumcised until he was old.

we can also see that when God tells humans not to eat blood he speaks to them. and we also see that in Genesis 2 wear God sanctifies the Sabbath, there is no report of God speaking to humans. this leads me to question whether God commanded Adam to keep the Sabbath. and since I don't know for sure, if I were to say one way or the other for sure, that would be speculation.

this is why I think it would be good for you to list scripture references for all the Commandments in God's Universal law given to Abraham and all mankind in the order that they appear in the scriptures. Then we could see that a glance how this all works for you. how many verses do you think it would be?

No, Paul - and every Hebrew writer - is clear about referring to the whole set of ordinances, laws, commandments and appointed days and rites given by God through Moses as a covenant regulation at Horeb. It is called "the Law" consistently throughout the Bible.


Are you quoting something Abraham would have read? Are you ignorant or are you just obstinate?

The Bible says Christ was a mystery that even the angels longed to look into. 1 Peter 1:12
There, now possible ignorance is begun to be addressed. I can't fix the other potential problem.

interesting situation developing here.
I would think that a person who kept the Sabbath would be very interested and whether a sacrifice was burnt or eaten.

From your posts that I have studied, He is still a mystery, at least the Christ of the Bible.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

="Dan_473, post: 3638860, member: 190874"]I believe you misunderstand what I am saying.




That is your question, not mine. You are trying to justify your rejection of His Sabbath. I'm not interested in rejecting God's Words, as Eve did, I'm interested in the "Faith" of Abraham.




Lol, This is the difference between you and I Dan. I think the truths above are the "really good part". I don't need to find a reason to ignore them or reject them from my understanding.

It doesn't matter to me what commands were given to Abraham Dan. God gave Abraham Commands and Abraham followed them. If God gives me Commands, and I choose to reject them because the religious franchise I choose to partake of teaches against them, am I doing the "Works" of Abraham? No Dan!!

Abraham and Eve received instructions from God and Abraham followed them, while Eve didn't. She didn't listen to "Every Word of God, she listened to a voice that used some of God's Word to convince her NOT to follow the instructions of God.. You are I have also received instructions from the same God. According to the Bible, should we do the Works of Abraham, or Eve?



I have no reason to believe that God made things up as He went, or that He didn't give instructions to His creation. You are concerned with what the instructions were, because you have been convinced, by those using some of God's Word, that you don't have to follow God's Instructions like Abraham did, that you can be like Eve and still receive the Promise. Maybe you can, but the Scriptures bring that teaching in question.




Circumcision was a sign of his obedience. But he was circumcised in heart from the very beginning. If you really wanted to understand Circumcision you would study it and understand the same thing Paul understood. But because, it seems, you are only interested in using Circumcision as justification for your rejection of God's Sabbath, you don't do it. I have, therefore we have different understandings.



I don't believe God sanctified and separated His Sabbath, and did so for man, "HID" His Sabbath from His Children. I have no reason to think this way. But regardless if God shared His Creation with Adam as I believe He did, or Hid His Creation from Adam, as you suggest, it really doesn't matter. You are I were given the Commandment. We have both had a voice telling us, in very compelling words, that we won't die if we reject God's Instructions and follow another's instruction. Abraham and Eve are "Examples" of how God feels about each choice. That is not speculation.




It seems you already understand, why are you still asking for more support from my belief?

Yes Abraham did not pick n choose which Commandments to keep.
yes God separated the 7th day.
yes the Sabbath was made for man, and Abraham was a man.
Yes Christ's day was seen by Abraham.
yes Zachariah recognized Jesus.
Yes the Pharisees did not recognize Jesus.

That does seem to be important to God.

For example, at the fortelling of the birth of Samson:

Judges 13:15-16
Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "Please let us detain you and prepare a young goat for you." And the angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "If you detain me, I will not eat of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD." (For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.)

Wow I never saw that before!

Dan_473, post: 3638957, member: 190874"]yes it is my question, what laws do you feel where in the universal law that God gave to Abraham and all mankind. I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm interested in biblical accuracy. I too am not interested in rejecting the scriptures. At the same time, I am also not interested in adding to the scriptures. I am interested in going with what the scriptures actually say and I think that at heart you are as well.
There used to be a user here on CC that was very into the idea that the King James Bible was inspired by God. if you questioned him on this, he would say that you were taking on the role of the serpent in the garden, asking Eve Did God really say? but such logic is faulty, as I'm sure most everyone could see, except for him.
when I said the really good part, I was thinking of the good part of the discussion. I wasn't thinking of the good part of the scripture.
I thought it did matter to you what commands were given to Abraham.

As I understood what you were saying, they were Abraham's commands, then the levitical priesthood was added 430 years later, then they were removed, leaving the commands given to Abraham as what we have for us today. yes if God gives you commands you should follow them.

I think we should follow the faith of Abraham. I don't think we should follow all of the commands that Abraham had, since he was commanded to be physically circumcised.

Yes God did not make things up as he went along. It does look to me that he gave different commands at different times. I agree that I have to follow God's instructions like Abraham did. That is not the same as following the same commands that Abraham had.
That sounds right, that Abraham was circumcised in his heart from the beginning. I have studied circumcision. I believe that I do understand it the way Paul did.
You and I both given the Commandment not to do physical work on the Sabbath? to me, that is part of the law that we are not under.

neither does God like having his instructions added too.

I believe I already explained why I was asking you to list the references, in biblical order, for the commands that you see in the universal law given to Abraham and all mankind. I think it will help the discussion. I don't think it would be difficult. How many references do you think it will be?

But that is the same argument you make regarding the "LAW" that was ":ADDED" 430 years after Abraham. You say that because Paul says "Law" he must be speaking about every law that God ever gave His People. I argue that God has His Law, given to Abraham and Noah, and their Children, and that He "added" a Priesthood, given to the Levites that was compiled of "Works" performed for the remission of sin, "till the Seed should Come". A "Law of Works" that Abraham didn't have.

I have asked before, what was this "ADDED" Law "ADDED" to? What was being transgressed that prompted God to "ADD" a " Law of Works"?

To answer your last question as I understand it....the ADDED law are the WORKS. They were added to the COMMANDMENTS because people failed to keep them/transgressed them.
Abraham did not have/need the 'works of the law' because he kept the Commandments as God rquired. Scripture says Abe kept Gods Commandments.
I agree with you.

It is a fascinating thing to behold Beta. The Mainstream Religion of Christ's time had corrupted the Word of God so much for so long that It's Truth, when It came to them, was so foreign they couldn't accept it.

When Paul converted and started teaching and following the Law and Prophets, it was so foreign to them they thought he was a heretic.

They had worshipped the wrong way for so long, for so many centuries, that it was established "law" in their minds. Some knew the Truth, like Zechariahs, but most did not. It is the same today, as prophesied.

It is fascinating to see the prophesies given all those centuries ago come to life. There is truly no new thing under the sun.

posthuman, post: 3639565, member: 170505"]

this says the Law was added to promises

more laws were added to a law"

it does not say "priesthood and sacrificial blood covering was added to a law"

God gave the inheritance to Abraham by a law"

="

I have said many times that it didn't matter to me, or in my understanding, to the example this story was intended to promote. God gave Abraham instructions and Abraham kept them.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp, or acknowledge. Did God tell me to go sacrifice my son to Him? No! Does this somehow translate into a doctrine where I get to pick and choose which Commandments are worthy of my respect, and which are not?






There was a Law "ADDED" to another LAW which was being transgressed some 430 years after Abraham. It was to be in place "Until Jesus came". You and Post imply that this Law included "Though Shall Love the Lord with all your heart, and That thou shall love your neighbor as thy self, and so on.

I don't consider, and the Scriptures don't imply, that these are "Works of the Law", rather, I believe they are of the "LAW of Faith" which Paul spoke about in Rom. 3.. The "works of the Law" or as Paul refers to them as "The Law of Works" are the "Works" given though Moses to the Levites for the remission of sins. These, of course, would only be in force until "After those days" when the Word would become Flesh. I believe there is, and have posted volumes of scriptures in both the new and the old testaments which suggest that Loving God and Loving our neighbor as our self, will never end as our instructions. That even in immortality we would honor God and each other with following these commandments and the definition placed on them in the Law and Prophets. Isaiah also said, in the Spirit of Christ, that some day "ALL" who worship God will respect His Commandments and Holy Days He created for man. This is not speculation.

However, the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" is most certainly a temporary Commandment, which neither Abraham, not you and I were ever instructed to partake. Given God's description of sacrifice VS. obedience it is evident that God is more interested in how we love him and how we Love others, than He is with sacrificial "works of a Temporary Priesthood. And there is a stark difference between how God refers to His Sabbath in the Word of God, and how He refers to animal sacrifice. It is not speculation to consider these truth when seeking the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness in order to do the Will of God which Jesus said is essential for Salvation. It is accepting EVERY Word of God, not just the ones which support Mainstream religious traditions which direct me to these conclusions.




Abraham was already obedient by the time God gave him an outward sign of obedience. And as we continue to "Seek the Kingdom of God" we learn, as did Paul, that the intent behind Circumcision was the "Renewing of our mind" or the "circumcision of the heart". I can't continue to live as if God did not make this distinction.





I know the Sabbath is the reason for our disagreement. This discussion is all about the Sabbath of God. Do we honor Him by following it, or do we follow the Path of the religious masses by not following it? You use scriptures that can promote your choice to not follow. This of course, causes you to disregard a lot of scriptures from the Word which became Flesh, both as the Word and as the Man Jesus which suggest it is God's Will for us to "Remember His Sabbath, and to keep it Holy. It is Holy because the Word which became Flesh made it Holy. We find evidence that we are not to rely on cutting flesh off our private parts for salvation, we are also influenced by much evidence that we are no longer to kill animals and have a Levite Priest sprinkle blood on an alter so we can be considered righteous. But I find zero evidence that the Christ, as the Word, and as the Man Jesus, every took away the Sanctification, or the Holy Status He bestowed on this commandment.


We have prophesy that the Gentiles (Uncircumcised in flesh by definition) will be taken into God's Fold. We have prophesy regarding the end of animal sacrifice and the Priesthood service of the Sanctuary.

We also have Prophesy that Priests who come in God's Name will preach lies. We have Prophesy that a great religion will speak out against the most High God and will " His intention will be to change times established by law".

But nowhere do we have Prophesy that God eliminated, altered or changing His Sabbath. Nowhere.

Should I not consider these Biblical facts when "Seeking the Kingdom and His Righteousness? What if most people ignore these Biblical facts? Should that change my mind regarding Scripture? If you think it should, then you should read about Caleb.






Then don't disregard them Dan. Don't Add to them Dan.



The Bible is just a Book Dan. I can not prove it is true, or that God exists. I believe the evidence, but just like the existence of God, I can't prove it. I have "Faith" in Him, but if I had proof of His existence it wouldn't be Faith. And we are saved by Faith in Him according to His Word.

I don't know if what is written is true, but I know what is written. About His Sabbath, about Circumcision, and the Priesthood "works of the Law". I have posted volumes of scriptures which show how God feels about all 3 subjects. It is the Scriptures which have led me to the conclusions I have shared with you.

If you believe the scriptures build a different doctrine, then please, show them to me, make your case as to why my understanding is not in line with scriptures. If I am just posting scriptures which are exposing flaws on your doctrines, then maybe you would be wise to consider. How else would the Most High correct you. Are you so special you think He would come down to you in shining Light and treat you differently than He did Abraham?

How do you know He isn't telling you: " Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"

And God hinted of the abolition of the Priesthood throughout the Bible for those interested in seeking the truth. But never His universal Law given to Abraham and all mankind.

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is the Promise, at least this is what the Bible says..