Oh goody another OSAS thread!

I think you totally misunderstand what the word FAITH means.

People who had FAITH in Judaism, may try out Christianity for a time, but their faith is in the law. so they will always when push comes to shove (when things get tough) return to what they know and trust, that is law

A person who would claim to be a believer then switch to islam. Can you honestly sit their and say they understood true Christianity? they they really repented? or where they not stuck in some legalistic form of christianity, but never really had faith in it, and moved to another legalistic gospel. because it suited them better?

Just because one is a member of your church does not mean they are saved. They can be there for 20 years. it means nothing, True faith is what saves, not going to some churhc and saying you believe in God and playing church, They have tasted the gift, they have tasted Gods love by being around his people. It does not mean they were adopted as his son or daughter,

If after being in that for that long, they leave and go to another place. or outright reject God all together. All that proves is they never had true saving faith to begin with, God does not let his people down. You do NOT LOSE faith in someone who never lets you down. If anything your faith is strengthened as you take steps of faith. Only a person who never tasted of Gods love by PERSONALLY experiencing it as an adopted child. and takes steps of faith (work to produce fruit) woudl walk away and stop believing, because they never experienced Gods true love in the first place. and they had no basis or "root" in which to ground that faith in, because their faith was non existent.

oh and by the way, You still have not told me how those things I said sounded more like me than you, so you are still running from the issue, and backing your claims.. Shame on you!

People who had FAITH in Judaism, may try out Christianity for a time, but their faith is in the law. so they will always when push comes to shove (when things get tough) return to what they know and trust, that is law.
Instead of trusting the law, people should trust Yahweh himself, of whom Jesus is the image. (Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation Col 1:15)
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A person who would claim to be a believer then switch to islam. Can you honestly sit their and say they understood true Christianity? they they really repented? or where they not stuck in some legalistic form of christianity, but never really had faith in it, and moved to another legalistic gospel. because it suited them better?
This debate is about those who have personally "been enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God." (Hebrews 6)
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Just because one is a member of your church does not mean they are saved. They can be there for 20 years. it means nothing, True faith is what saves, not going to some churhc and saying you believe in God and playing church, They have tasted the gift, they have tasted Gods love by being around his people. It does not mean they were adopted as his son or daughter,
Those who have a PERSONAL relationship with God and who have experienced the love of God for themselves are safe in His loving arms.
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If after being in that for that long, they leave and go to another place. or outright reject God all together. All that proves is they never had true saving faith to begin with, God does not let his people down. You do NOT LOSE faith in someone who never lets you down. If anything your faith is strengthened as you take steps of faith. Only a person who never tasted of Gods love by PERSONALLY experiencing it as an adopted child. and takes steps of faith (work to produce fruit) woudl walk away and stop believing, because they never experienced Gods true love in the first place. and they had no basis or "root" in which to ground that faith in, because their faith was non existent.
People cannot break off a relationship with God they never had. Our debate only concerns those who have tasted the heavenly gift, have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God.
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oh and by the way, You still have not told me how those things I said sounded more like me than you, so you are still running from the issue, and backing your claims.. Shame on you!
Your love for God secures you eternally.
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Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
Very true, we are NOT condemned, unless at a later date we turn against Jesus Christ thereby rejecting Him and effectively spiting in his face like those who crucified Him the first time.

Amen, If God never fails a person, how can a person ever lose faith in God, Unless they never trusted him to begin with

Its easy to understand why we lose faiht in people. people fail us, But to say we can lose faith in God who will never fail us is to humanise God and claim he makes mistakes.

Agree, but not sure what this has to do with what people did. And trusting law is no different than trusting works of any kind, When we trust our performance (good or bad) as a guideline of whether we get to heaven or not, we are in serious troube, because reality is, no one is good enough to get to heaven based on their performance

That does not say they were saved, The author of hebrews did not day those people who were adopted into Gods family and had a perosonal relationship with them, that they were believers, So it is pretty dangerous to try to add to the word of God something that is not written. Again, Anyone who is exposed to the church and has personally witnessed Gods love given to others and seen what the gift has done to people have done that, it does not mean they were ever saved.

yes they are, But we are not talking about those people. We are talking about people who are going to our churches that have yet to fully repent and come to God in faith,

See, You almost agreed with me, People can not break of a relationship they never had, Then you failed again, Those people tasted the gift, they did not do as Jesus demands in John 6 and not just taste, but gnaw and chew, and take it all in in faith, because you like it.

I can taste any food there is, It does not mean I will like it, If I do not really like that food, I will reject it outright, If I do nto really love it, but it does nto taste too bad, I may eat it for awhile. maybe my friends eat it so I want to eat it with them, But eventually, I will stop eating it, because I do not really enjoy that food.

Same goes with God, I can taste him, Taste his gift, And share in the blessing of the HS (by associating wiht his people) but if I do not really like it, I will not stick with it to long, I will return to what I really like, In the context of Hebrews, that would be the law.


What does that have to do with what I said? I said nothing about my love for god.


again, why would we stop trusting a God to lose faith in him, Since God will never become unfaithful, even when we are faithless, he remains faithful. so how can we lose faith in him (for salvation? remember we are talking about salvation here, Not faith in him to take care of every need we have)

and as John said (you keep ignoring) If a person rejects Christ, they were never saved to begin with.

This response and your rhetoric about 'laugh at' is the very reason that the 'not by works' thread just got shut down. So you should be respectful of someone's opinion and not laugh at their contribution to the discussion. IOW be a good Christian.

How do you reconcile this scripture to your "everyone is written int he book of life" statement?
Revelation 13:7-9 King James Version (KJV)
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Please reconcile this to your statement. Especially vs 8, when it says there are names that are not written in the book of life of the Lamb?

Looks like to me if there are names that are not written in the book of life, then those names that are written in the book of life must be the believers. And those whose names are blotted out of the book of life are those believers that rejected Christ along the way.

From ben:

"Looks like to me if there are names that are not written in the book of life, then those names that are written in the book of life must be the believers. And those whose names are blotted out of the book of life are those believers that rejected Christ along the way"


Revelation 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works



Exodus 32:33 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.



seems to me your theory only believers are in the book of life is false


seems to me those whos names are not found written in the book have indeed been blotted out

and those who are found in the book and have not been blotted out are those who believe

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Revelation 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


1 John 5:4
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

John 16:33
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Seems your definition on apostacy/apostate does not jive to yourillustration for it has been said that it is to be "willful" a deliberate act or that refuses to change{repentance}. That said fits the unsaved. A saved may fall seven times but not fall away.

Regarding the misunderstood passage in hebrews 6 by the work/lost salvationist actually is one of the strongest proof text for the security of the saved believers. The writer of the book of hebrews is using a hypothical illustration with hypothetical "IF'. This only shows that the saved beliversare impossible to fall from his salvation. The verse 9 speaks of better things that accompany salvation being secured both the heavenly Father and his Son and the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

Heb 6:4-6 KJV
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The passage is talking about believers who have "been enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God." and what happens IF they fall away.

The word "if" is a two way street. We can ask ourselves what will happen IF I go this way, and what will happen IF I go that way? It is an option, it means we have choice and it tells us what will happen IF we turn away from Jesus.

This is a clear statement that people can fall away from Jesus and IF they do, they will not find salvation anywhere else. Certainly not from the law. Alarm bells were ringing when I read EG who wrote, "People who had FAITH in Judaism, may try out Christianity for a time, but their faith is in the law. so they will always when push comes to shove (when things get tough) return to what they know and trust, that is law."

They need to put their faith in Jesus permanently. IF they once put their faith in Jesus, and then apostatised and went back to the law, then I fear for their salvation.

That's the issue with most. The look at Gods word as a "Contract"... something one must fulfill in order to receive what's in the contract. God doesn't work like man and we cannot compare Him to man. God has given us a COVENANT, and that covenant cannot ever be broken. As long as one sees it as a contract, they will always see scripture carnally.

Essentially, our faith in Christ produces fruit. Ultimately people need to understand what work is to begin with. It's not something you can just google and get mans understanding of. This is our work, straight from the Word:

Joh 6:28 They said therefore unto him, 'What may we do that we may work the works of God?'
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you may believe in him whom He did send.'

The Word of God is simple.. So simple that most can't accept its simplicity because they think carnal and still think that have something to do with it. We don't! It is FREE! But with that said, because it was free, and because the Holy Spirit now dwells within us, we will produce good fruit; as a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Another issue is the world overcometh. He that overcomes in Revelation. Again, you cannot look at what mans interpretation of overcoming means. We must look to scripture.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So, looking at these definitions, it's very clear that our works will never save us, nor keep us saved.

Thank you Yeshua HaMashioch...

Right, and I've used this example before about aliens.

IF you believe that aliens exist, and believed this for 50 years, but then all of a sudden someone comes out and has proved they don't exist.... and you tell yourself, well, I guess I was wrong. Then you truly had never believed they existed to begin with, for if you had, you would tell them.. "OH HECK NO, I KNOW ALIENS EXIST, and there is nothing you can do to tell me otherwise".. now THAT is saving faith. If you walked away from it, you never truly had a solid foundation upon the rock of our salvation. You had an outward confession, but no inward commitment.

1Jn_2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Amen, He showed us what it would look like if he gave us a contract. by giving us the law. Then he showed the requirement (Confirm and obey every word) to show us how we can not live up to Gods standard. To lead us to christ, because we have failed to keep the contract God gave us (the law)

God did not offer any other contract. period.

WEll, don't forget these verses:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

I'm pretty sure that's not to the 12 Apostles alone.

I think if you spend time in a Christian forum it would behoove you to learn something about the faith itself. If you identify as a Christian my apology. A Christian isn't known to speak of salvation in such vulgar terms as you have.

The first so called OSAS Thread was written in blood by the will of the Father through his son Jesus Christ on the cross. That then was put onto the world wide web of eternity and truth for all time. The server being G-O-D 1.1. No monthly service fee. No disconnect fee. Just guaranteed 100% clarity till the day we die.

Salvation is a gift not a reward. Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 11:29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Please don’t forget these verses from John 5.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29



JPT

Apology accepted.

Smh

Yet here you are opening a whole new thread where that is precisely what will happen.

Don't forget to not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture. The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) is not the basis or means of their salvation, but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we also see in Romans 2:6-10. Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or "those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

amen