Women Pastors for women?

Where is your statistical support for the bolded statement? Why are you pointing to the sinfulness of some to denigrate the whole? Are there not many rebellious, unsubmitted, and sinful men in leadership positions in the church? Are they not adequate reason not to allow men in positions of authority? Your reasoning is unbalanced.



This has absolutely nothing to do with a power struggle, primarily because men don't have the power either; Christ does.



Godly women (in fact, all women) have nothing to fear from godly men who are submitted fully to Christ. When you find some men like that, let all the women know so they may follow them.

You are making your argument on the basis of alleged personal revelation. That has no bearing on a discussion of scriptural principles. Plus, I believe you're off-base by a wide margin, and you're generalizing positively from examples when it suits your position, and negatively when it doesn't. That's inconsistent.



Where is your statistical support for the bolded statement?

Sound arguments about the role of women in the Church are not made from subjective generalities about women in the wider society.

The truth about divorce.com is a great point of reference for modern divorce statistics. Another one is pews research. Several years ago 75% of divorces in the United States were found by women even though God himself told women that they were bound to their husbands as long as they should live. In any case America where I live has become a study in empowering women while simultaneously we are seeing the destruction of morality in our society. Yes there are rebellious men in the church but until there are no Godly men left in the church to lead then we do not need women in positions of authority. I have talked to many women who would rather listen to Joyce Meyer then they would a male preacher even if he is a Godly Man. There has been much effort in our society to dishonor the god-given position of male Authority both in our society and in the church. One such piece of literature acknowledging this is men on strike by Helen Smith. I'm sorry that my statements don't fit into your world view and I'm also sorry that my experiences and testimony don't verify how you think things should be. But I believe the church has reached the end of its rope with empowering women and we need to return to an unashamedly patriarchal management. Jesus could have taught us any way at all to live and he never mentioned empowering women to leave the church nor did he exemplify this or encourage this. This is a fact. It might be inconvenient to the power struggle and the church that stems from women's lib spawned by Gloria Steinem but it is nonetheless the truth. Try reading 1st Peter chapter 3 verse 1 through 7.

You assume much. I'm not exalting Western Civilization one bit. Titus 2 I absolutely agree with, because it indicates women who are promoting other women to be good wives. Sure I should have mentioned not all women are called to bear children, they are consecrated to God alone. This is where we get the idea of nuns. Paul tells us essentially to marry God alone if possible. Since sexual sin is prolific even in the church today we probably won't see much if that in this age. In any case Titus 2 shows us a a woman who is not a church authority, but an encourager and a counselor. I think that's great! In any case, I'm not under any demonic control, to answer your other question. In fact Satan is never going to counsel people to unapologetically and unashamedly follow the word of God just as it is written. Satan does on the other hand, specialize in changing one or more words of God's counsel in order to subsequently destroy the central theme. The strongest evidence that we have today that women are not supposed to be in Authority in the church is the very fact that very few women even within the church will even be properly submissive to their own husbands much less to God himself. It is far easier to deal with a person you can reach out and touch and understand as a fellow human then it is to try to understand God who is far far greater than we are. In essence from what I have seen that until women in the church stop their power struggle and assumption that not having a leadership position equates to not being of any value we will continue to see the equivalent power struggles and the home. The Lord has shown me that this power struggle stems from Fear within women. They fear that they are not heard or valued. They fear that they are not taken seriously. But far worse they fear that not achieving some position of power and authority over men in this life makes them somehow a drone or a person of questionable value and significance. When in fact the opposite is true because many great men have presented their testimony regarding their success and said they could not have done it without their wives. Can this age we see a much greater push from women to seize all the assets and power that their husband has in a community for their own selfish desires rather than to be the Proverbs 31 Woman Who is preoccupied with bringing honor to her husband and his family name, not becoming a husband herself. A decent man uses Authority as a tool to achieve a task, where is most women in our society see Authority is an Accolade or affirmation of their value.

LET'S MOVE TO THE 21st CENTORY. MENNONITES, Huterites, Omish and Quakers are quite symilar in belief but Friends allow women to stand and speak OUT LOUD in church if the spirit comes upon them. Men stay seated and listen to what the word of the lord has to say..

Would you to be so bold to say they are not of GOD?

I believe that the Apostle Paul was very clear on this very topic. I have seen many women stand up and claim to have a word from the Lord or a message in tongues and I did not get confirmation in my spirit that it was genuine. Usually such outbursts are from women who are not getting any attention at home and are simply trying feel

I believe that the Apostle Paul was very clear on this very topic. I have seen many women stand up and claim to have a word from the Lord or a message in tongues and I did not get confirmation in my spirit that it was genuine. Usually such outbursts are from women who are not getting any attention at home and are simply trying feel

The truth about divorce.com is a great point of reference for modern divorce statistics. Another one is pews research. Several years ago 75% of divorces in the United States were found by women even though God himself told women that they were bound to their husbands as long as they should live. In any case America where I live has become a study in empowering women while simultaneously we are seeing the destruction of morality in our society. Yes there are rebellious men in the church but until there are no Godly men left in the church to lead then we do not need women in positions of authority. I have talked to many women who would rather listen to Joyce Meyer then they would a male preacher even if he is a Godly Man. There has been much effort in our society to dishonor the god-given position of male Authority both in our society and in the church. One such piece of literature acknowledging this is men on strike by Helen Smith. I'm sorry that my statements don't fit into your world view and I'm also sorry that my experiences and testimony don't verify how you think things should be. But I believe the church has reached the end of its rope with empowering women and we need to return to an unashamedly patriarchal management. Jesus could have taught us any way at all to live and he never mentioned empowering women to leave the church nor did he exemplify this or encourage this. This is a fact. It might be inconvenient to the power struggle and the church that stems from women's lib spawned by Gloria Steinem but it is nonetheless the truth. Try reading 1st Peter chapter 3 verse 1 through 7.

You're generalizing... again. Quoting a statistic (even accurately) and assuming that all of the divorces filed by women are illegitimate is simply unsound. Try identifying what percentage of those women filing for divorce had been abused, cheated on, or abandoned. Try identifying what percentage would be counted as Christian (not merely those who self-identify as Christian). Your reasoning is consistent with those who bark on about the gender wage gap... without considering the very legitimate explanations behind the numbers.

We obviously disagree about a few key passages in Scripture. That's nothing new; lots of people disagree with me, and lots of people disagree with you. You aren't going to get anywhere near convincing me by using logical fallacies though. Case in point: Joyce Meyer (regardless of what you think of her actual teachings) does not claim anywhere to be a teacher of or to males. In that sense, she is doing absolutely nothing contrary to your position. The fact that some men listen to her is not her problem, nor is the fact that some women prefer her to male preachers.

All authority has been given to Christ, not to males. The bible does not state anywhere that males are to be in authority in the Church. It does not state anywhere that females are not to be in authority in the Church. 1 Timothy 2:12 does not have the word, "authority" (exousia) in the Greek, so its clarity is highly debatable.

This discussion is not about feminism. If you want to discuss that, you're welcome to start another thread, but it isn't a biblical discussion so perhaps the Miscellaneous or Family forums would be a better venue.

I never said that they statistics regarding divorce we're all illegitimate divorces. It seems like you're spending much more time trying to personally discredit me then to address the problem that there is a problem in our society and within the church regarding the either misunderstood or intentionally ignored role of women within the church and our society in general. Just because I share something from my personal experience and wisdom gained through a life submitted to the Holy Spirit does not make it invalid. I am a son of God and hear from him. It is amazing to me that so many Christians say they believe God speaks to us but there actions and conduct towards other Christians indicates that they don't believe this actually happens. In any case I have brought forth many references and sources and have presented the position that I believe is the God approved one regarding these matters. I appreciate the discussion.

I have no interest in "personally discrediting" you. I'm sure you're a relatively decent fellow, and we'd probably get along well enough in person. However, I have no hesitation about discrediting your ideas where I think they are unsound or irrelevant. It simply isn't personal.

I too have a life replete with experience, learning, and listening to the Holy Spirit. If you want me to take your personal experiences seriously, then I can only expect likewise from you. We have come to different conclusions. Perhaps we should leave it at that.

I agree with you that women shouldn't be pastors. But, since that doesn't change the salvation I don't have problems with people disagreeing with me. Some things shouldn't divide fellowship. And that's one of them. I won't go to a church with a woman pastor, but I also won't tell others they shouldn't. There are enough churches that we don't have to settle or go somewhere we don't feel called to go.

Here again, the word "pastor" is being applied with the modern understanding of a titled role, not a first-century understanding which is likely more of a ministry specialty.

I mentioned earlier (not sure if this thread or another) that I suspect the modern concept of "counselor" is closest to the biblical gifting of "pastor". I may be incorrect in this, but counseling is certainly one area where modern pastors are called to minister - and not all "pastors" are gifted in counseling. Personal experience testifies only too loudly of this.

Alrighty then I suppose I should grab a man passing by, marry him quick and
start popping out babies (although I suspect thats too late for me).

I’m just glad I can trust in God’s plan and purpose for my life and don’t have to
rely on your opinion. Otherwise all women would be bare foot and tied to
the kitchen sink with 20 kids pulling at their apron strings.

Seriously, you honestly think God created women just to be baby making machines!
Your not Amish are you?

It's a little older than 3rd decade koine Greek, but how about we go with Psalm 23 for the definition of pastor? It is about leading sheep, is it not?

And how do you lead sheep? Keep them gathered. Keep the wolves, lions, and bears away. Get them to food and water. Shelter from storms as best one can. (Sheep get wet, but they tend to gather together to protect each other and encourage one another.) And don't let them jump off cliffs.

It seems to me, it's a lot more about guiding them to the good stuff than counseling them.

(And I'm wondering if you and DH had the same pastor counseling you. It didn't work out for him either, but good thing. Had it worked out, he wouldn't be my husband. Pastor stunk at counseling, but God worked that out to His good too.)

I'd do the barefoot part, just as long as I can wear shoes in winter. One out of three ain't bad.

The Jezebel and Delilah Spirits are alive and well within the church and are wreaking havoc.

You assume much. I'm not exalting Western Civilization one bit. Titus 2 I absolutely agree with, because it indicates women who are promoting other women to be good wives. Sure I should have mentioned not all women are called to bear children, they are consecrated to God alone. This is where we get the idea of nuns. Paul tells us essentially to marry God alone if possible. Since sexual sin is prolific even in the church today we probably won't see much if that in this age. In any case Titus 2 shows us a a woman who is not a church authority, but an encourager and a counselor. I think that's great! In any case, I'm not under any demonic control, to answer your other question. In fact Satan is never going to counsel people to unapologetically and unashamedly follow the word of God just as it is written. Satan does on the other hand, specialize in changing one or more words of God's counsel in order to subsequently destroy the central theme. The strongest evidence that we have today that women are not supposed to be in Authority in the church is the very fact that very few women even within the church will even be properly submissive to their own husbands much less to God himself. It is far easier to deal with a person you can reach out and touch and understand as a fellow human then it is to try to understand God who is far far greater than we are. In essence from what I have seen that until women in the church stop their power struggle and assumption that not having a leadership position equates to not being of any value we will continue to see the equivalent power struggles and the home. The Lord has shown me that this power struggle stems from Fear within women. They fear that they are not heard or valued. They fear that they are not taken seriously. But far worse they fear that not achieving some position of power and authority over men in this life makes them somehow a drone or a person of questionable value and significance. When in fact the opposite is true because many great men have presented their testimony regarding their success and said they could not have done it without their wives. Can this age we see a much greater push from women to seize all the assets and power that their husband has in a community for their own selfish desires rather than to be the Proverbs 31 Woman Who is preoccupied with bringing honor to her husband and his family name, not becoming a husband herself. A decent man uses Authority as a tool to achieve a task, where is most women in our society see Authority is an Accolade or affirmation of their value.

Authoritarians, Comps and Patriarchy supporters like to drop the name Jezebel in order to shame and reprimand women. It’s like they conveniently forget that there is a whole dirty laundry list of evil, rebellious kings (men) listed in the Bible. Evil kings (men) who rebelled against God and lead those under their authority astray.

God promised King Jeroboam, the son of Nebat, a secure kingdom and a long lasting dynasty if he would trust the LORD, but Jeroboam didn't believe God would deliver on his promise. In order to achieve security, he abolished the national worship of the LORD and inaugurated the golden calf cult. Sexual immorality had long been part of calf worship. Jeroboam led the children of Israel into sin against God (1 Ki 11:25 - 14:20; 2 Ch 10:1 - 13:20). Jeroboam became the prototype of an evil king. Several kings who ruled after him followed his example and continued to lead the children of Israel into sin:

Jeroboam's son Nadab became king over Israel during the second year of the reign of King Asa over Judah. He reigned over Israel for two years, practicing what the LORD considered to be evil, living the way his father did, committing sins, and leading Israel to sin (1 Ki 15:25-26).

Later, a message came from the LORD to Hanani's son Jehu. It was directed to rebuke Baasha, and this is what it said: I raised you from the dirt to become Commander-in-Chief over my people Israel, but you've been living like Jeroboam, you've been leading my people Israel into sin, and you've been provoking me to anger with their sins (1 Ki 16:2).

When Zimri observed that the city had been captured, he retreated into the king's palace, set fire to the citadel, and died when the palace burned down around him because of the sins that he committed by doing what the LORD considered to be evil, living like Jeroboam did, and sinning so as to lead Israel into sin (1 Kings 16:18).

Omri practiced what the LORD considered to be evil, doing far more evil than anyone who had reigned before him. He lived just like Nebat's son Jeroboam, and by his sin he led Israel into sin, provoking the LORD God of Israel with their idolatry (1 Ki 16:25).

Ahab asked Elijah, "So you've found me, my enemy?" Elijah answered, "I found you. Because you sold yourself to do what the LORD considers evil. 21So I am going to bring evil on you. I will destroy your descendants. I will destroy every male in Ahab's [house], whether slave or freeman in Israel. 22 I will make your family like the family of Jeroboam (Nebat's son) and like the house of Baasha, son of Ahijah, because you made me furious. You led Israel to sin." (1 Ki 21:20-22)

Ahab's son Ahaziah became king over Israel in Samaria in the seventeenth year of King Jehoshaphat of Judah. He reigned for two years over Israel. He practiced what the Lord considered to be evil by living life like his father and mother did. He lived like Nebat's son Jeroboam, who led Israel into sin (1 Ki 22:51).

Jehoahaz son of Jehu began to rule over Israel in the twenty-third year of King Joash’s reign in Judah. He reigned in Samaria seventeen years. 2 But he did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He followed the example of Jeroboam son of Nebat, continuing the sins that Jeroboam had led Israel to commit. 3 So the LORD was very angry with Israel, and he allowed King Hazael of Aram and his son Ben-hadad to defeat them repeatedly (2 Ki 13:1-3).

Jehoash son of Jehoahaz began to rule over Israel in the thirty-seventh year of King Joash’s reign in Judah. He reigned in Samaria sixteen years. 11But he did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Ki 13:10-11).

Jeroboam II, the son of Jehoash, began to rule over Israel in the fifteenth year of King Amaziah’s reign in Judah. Jeroboam reigned in Samaria forty-one years. 24He did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Ki 14:23-24).

Zechariah son of Jeroboam II began to rule over Israel in the thirty-eighth year of King Uzziah’s reign in Judah. He reigned in Samaria six months. 9 Zechariah did what was evil in the LORD’s sight, as his ancestors had done. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:8-9).

Menahem son of Gadi began to rule over Israel in the thirty-ninth year of King Uzziah’s reign in Judah. He reigned in Samaria ten years. 18 But Menahem did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. During his entire reign, he refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:17-18).

Pekahiah son of Menahem began to rule over Israel in the fiftieth year of King Uzziah’s reign in Judah. He reigned in Samaria two years. 24But Pekahiah did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:23-24).


Pekah son of Remaliah began to rule over Israel in the fifty-second year of King Uzziah’s reign in Judah. He reigned in Samaria twenty years. 28But Pekah did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:27-28).

Jezebel was absolutely wrong for her rebellion. Likewise, the numerous evil kings listed in scripture were also absolutely wrong for their rebellion against God and for leading those under their authority astray. However, you won't find too many Authoritarians, Comps or Patriarchy supporters highlighting the verses that tell us about the evil, rebellious kings of Israel and the damage they caused.

Spoken like a true rebellious woman! Your contempt for his intent is glaringly obvious. It is amazing to me how many time that I have taught or Council that women should do as God has modeled for them to do among the great women of God such as Sarah and Rebecca that their first response has something to do with being barefoot and pregnant. Proverbs 31 indicates a woman who is much more than barefoot and pregnant but nonetheless she is not in charge of her husband or any aspect of the worship of God. As I said in my latest comment prior to this one essentially, it is amazing to me how the one thing that women refuse to try in the church today is simply to do what God has clearly told them to do.

That just annoys me even more. You're not under demonic control, however any woman who disagrees with you is? I'm no nun. I'm married, and yet never had children. So, somehow I became demonc, Miri is demonic, but you're righteous?

Not even close. You're using authority as a tool alright. A hammer to beat women down into submissiveness. Warning: I fight back!

Submission isn't a given. It's earned, and you have not earned it.