John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
preacher4truth

preacher4truth

Senior Member
#301
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,719
113
#301
Nehemiah6 said:
"Dead" should be properly understood in this context, and not exaggerated. How could God hold anyone accountable, if none could respond to the Gospel? Do you see how absurd the meaning of "dead" has become under Reformed Theology?
Click to expand...
Old N6, always the Romans 9:20 man aren't you, yes? "Why have you made me thus, how can he find fault!!!???"

Yep. That's you for sure.

ONE of your problems is failing to realize all are worthy to be condemned to hell prior to any hearing of the Gospel...

Another is your relentless and myopic fight against the true Gospel and the God of Scripture.

And lest we forget, to you all Reformed are lost and on their way to hell, this you have stated on here more than once.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#302
Jun 11, 2018
3,344
3,720
113
68
#302
DevotiontoBible said:
The point of contention is between grace being irresistible or not. Calvinists say since grace is irresistible then only those who God chooses will get grace and believe. Arminians say grace is given to everyone but is resistable. Those who don't resist believe: “You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That’s what your ancestors did, and so do you! Acts of the Apostles 7:51 NLT
Click to expand...
I realize that this probably crosses over into the realm of nitpicking, but as an aside, what a strange paraphrase the NLT makes here of Stephen's words (see the text in bold above). No other paraphrase (that I could find anyway .. and certainly no translation) renders part of v51 in this manner (as a question, rather than as a declaration). I wonder why the NLT alone chose to do so? (IOW, chose to have Stephen ask, "Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? That's what your ancestors did..." instead of having him declare, "You are just like your fathers: you always resist the Holy Spirit")?

~Deut
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#303
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#303
Nehemiah6 said:
If we take the plain meaning of verse 26, what it tells us that unbelievers are not Christ's sheep. Which is perfectly correct and logical. Goats are not sheep, and *goats* is used as a metaphor for unbelievers. It does NOT tell us that God prevented them from believing. It does NOT tell us that they could not believe, even if they wanted to believe.

Indeed in John 10, Christ urges the unbelievers to believe on Him again and again, but they resisted the Holy Spirit (as Stephen later told the unbelieving Jews).

10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Jesus said "I told you, and ye believed not". But who or what stopped them from believing? Christ gives us the answer in John 3:

3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Click to expand...
The last verse sums up the reprobate, "their deeds are evil"
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#304
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#304
DevotiontoBible said:
Oh really? So your gospel says people don't have to even believe God exists and they can be born again. That is messed up.
Click to expand...
Your understanding is messed up, I never said any such thing. The reprobate are unable to believe because God leaves dead in their sin, as dead people they cannot believe.
The elect were given the gift of faith so they do respond to the commandment to believe, as they are alive and living people can respond
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#305
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#305
DevotiontoBible said:
Evidently you skipped over Hab 2:4. It doesn't say the just shall before and without his faith. Look it up.
Click to expand...
It says the just shall live by faith, but they were given that faith as a gift where as your kind are not given the gift so you remain in your sin
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#306
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#306
Nehemiah6 said:
If we take the plain meaning of verse 26, what it tells us that unbelievers are not Christ's sheep. Which is perfectly correct and logical. Goats are not sheep, and *goats* is used as a metaphor for unbelievers. It does NOT tell us that God prevented them from believing. It does NOT tell us that they could not believe, even if they wanted to believe.
Click to expand...
Let's look at it again.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

People don't believe because they are not sheep. That's what the plain meaning plainly says.

SO you have people making their own selves into sheep. By what they do.

Or you can have what the bible says and that is God has chosen the sheep and given them to the Lord Jesus Christ and that is why they believe.


What about the story of Noah? A few, chosen by God and saved. The majority, un-believers, perished.

That would be biblical fact, right?

What about the story of Israel? A people, chosen by God and saved. Canaan, Egypt, the majority, un-believers, perished.

Matthew 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Why is this any different?
 
D

DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#307
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
#307
Danny1988 said:
Your understanding is messed up, I never said any such thing. The reprobate are unable to believe because God leaves dead in their sin, as dead people they cannot believe.
The elect were given the gift of faith so they do respond to the commandment to believe, as they are alive and living people can respond
Click to expand...
That is exactly what you are saying. In fact, you are saying a devil worshipper can be born again while performing a human sacrifice.
 
D

DevotiontoBible

Senior Member
#308
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
#308
Danny1988 said:
It says the just shall live by faith, but they were given that faith as a gift where as your kind are not given the gift so you remain in your sin
Click to expand...
Accusing me of being an unregenerated sinner is not very good for you to do. You need to grow up.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#309
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#309
Grandpa said:
SO you have people making their own selves into sheep. By what they do.
Click to expand...
Those who are not sheep must hear the Gospel and respond to the Gospel. And those who obey the Gospel are saved by grace through faith. If you wish to call this "doing", then you would have also done the same in order to be deemed a sheep.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#310
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#310
Danny1988 said:
We simply believe that God foreordained all things to happen, as they have and still are to this moment and will continue into eternity. We believe He is sovereign over all things. I can't stress the "over all things enough", that means all things
Click to expand...
You still do not address the issue.

According to your post #166, you believe Adam and Eve were "predestined" to sin, "the whole thing was a set up".

If what you believe is true, then God's "Will" was that Adam and Eve had no choice but to sin.

So, reading Genesis 2:16-17, And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it


So, what was God's Will?

If they were "predestined" to sin, then God's Will was that they eat (sin).

Yet, Gen 2:16-17 tells us God's Will was that they not eat (not sin).

Your premise falls apart at the second chapter of Genesis.


Just because God allows people to reject Him does not mean God is not sovereign over all things.

Again, God knowing beforehand that Adam and Eve would eat, and having the forethought in His manifold wisdom to provide for the redemption of all mankind because of Adam's and Eve's disobedience, is not the same as God creating Adam for the purpose of sinning.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#311
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#311
So was Satan predestined to sin against God?

Eve sinned because she was tempted to be like God at Satan's prompting.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#312
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#312
shrume said:
A technicality? What does the Bible say:

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Read that verse and please tell me how you can think it says we are saved (receive the gift of the holy spirit) before we believe.
Click to expand...
You have told me before, that I have a death grip on 1 Cor 2:14, which you have yet to explain, word for word, and I believe you will not try, because you can't. I think that you must have a death gripe on Eph 1:13. which I have explained for you. We are born of the Spirit, when we were dead in sin, and after that, were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. Jesus said when I go, I will send the Holy Spirit to you, and he shall bring to remembrance those things I have taught you. The Spirit bringing to remembrance is his sealing of that promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance. We were born of his Spirit before we would believe, and after, were sealed (brought to remembrance). Now, explain 1 Cor 2:14.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#313
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#313
ForestGreenCook said:
You have told me before, that I have a death grip on 1 Cor 2:14, which you have yet to explain, word for word, and I believe you will not try, because you can't. I think that you must have a death gripe on Eph 1:13. which I have explained for you. We are born of the Spirit, when we were dead in sin, and after that, were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. Jesus said when I go, I will send the Holy Spirit to you, and he shall bring to remembrance those things I have taught you. The Spirit bringing to remembrance is his sealing of that promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance. We were born of his Spirit before we would believe, and after, were sealed (brought to remembrance). Now, explain 1 Cor 2:14.
Click to expand...
There is no solace, no comfort and no virtue in a false understanding of 1 Cor 2:14. The natural man according to Jesus is able to do good things despite being evil.

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Is there any that God does not love? God hates sin not men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#314
Jan 13, 2016
17,153
3,697
113
#314
ForestGreenCook said:
You have told me before, that I have a death grip on 1 Cor 2:14, which you have yet to explain, word for word, and I believe you will not try, because you can't. I think that you must have a death gripe on Eph 1:13. which I have explained for you. We are born of the Spirit, when we were dead in sin, and after that, were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. Jesus said when I go, I will send the Holy Spirit to you, and he shall bring to remembrance those things I have taught you. The Spirit bringing to remembrance is his sealing of that promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance. We were born of his Spirit before we would believe, and after, were sealed (brought to remembrance). Now, explain 1 Cor 2:14.
Click to expand...
Ephesians 1:12-13
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Step 1: one has to hear the word of truth
Step 2: one must trust, believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ (in whom)
Step 3: one is sealed with the holy Spirit which guarantees adoption, the redemption of the body

The Holy Spirit brought to remembrance to the disciples the words that Jesus taught them concerning His death, burial and resurrection. Before that, God hid it from their minds so they could not understand it.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#315
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#315
notuptome said:
There is no solace, no comfort and no virtue in a false understanding of 1 Cor 2:14. The natural man according to Jesus is able to do good things despite being evil.

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Is there any that God does not love? God hates sin not men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...
You STILL have not explained 1 Cor 2:14. Roger, all scriptures have to harmonize, if they are not harmonizing for you, you do not have the truth. I have explained every scripture you have given me. You make a lot of statements that you do not back up with scripture.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#316
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#316
John146 said:
Ephesians 1:12-13
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Step 1: one has to hear the word of truth
Step 2: one must trust, believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ (in whom)
Step 3: one is sealed with the holy Spirit which guarantees adoption, the redemption of the body

The Holy Spirit brought to remembrance to the disciples the words that Jesus taught them concerning His death, burial and resurrection. Before that, God hid it from their minds so they could not understand it.
Click to expand...
Another one that can not explain 1 Cor 2:14.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#317
Jan 13, 2016
17,153
3,697
113
#317
ForestGreenCook said:
Another one that can not explain 1 Cor 2:14.
Click to expand...
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit cannot draw a lost man to the knowledge of the Savior? Then, it is the lost man's choice whether to believe and call upon the Lord to be saved.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#318
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#318
ForestGreenCook said:
You STILL have not explained 1 Cor 2:14. Roger, all scriptures have to harmonize, if they are not harmonizing for you, you do not have the truth. I have explained every scripture you have given me. You make a lot of statements that you do not back up with scripture.
Click to expand...
It cannot be explained to you. You cannot receive the explanation though many have already tried. You have only dismissed the scriptures you have been given. You incorrectly believe you were regenerated before you were saved. Your profile indicates you believe you were saved when Christ died on Calvary.

You need to become genuinely and wonderfully saved according to the bible and not some self proclaimed doctrine. The blood of Christ is sufficient to save everybody but many are secure in their own righteousness and count the blood of Christ as no value.

Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 ¶ For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#319
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#319
John146 said:
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit cannot draw a lost man to the knowledge of the Savior? Then, it is the lost man's choice whether to believe and call upon the Lord to be saved.
Click to expand...
Tell me how a man who cannot understand anything that is of a spiritual nature be drawn to understand that he has a spiritual savior. The only way the man that is dead in sin can start understanding spiritual things is after God put his Spirit within him, as explained in Eph 2:5, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened ( brought to life ) us together with Christ, ( by grace are ye saved ).
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#320
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#320
notuptome said:
It cannot be explained to you. You cannot receive the explanation though many have already tried. You have only dismissed the scriptures you have been given. You incorrectly believe you were regenerated before you were saved. Your profile indicates you believe you were saved when Christ died on Calvary.

You need to become genuinely and wonderfully saved according to the bible and not some self proclaimed doctrine. The blood of Christ is sufficient to save everybody but many are secure in their own righteousness and count the blood of Christ as no value.

Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 ¶ For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...
Roger, I fail to see how the Galations scriptures explain how the natural can accept spiritual things, maybe you could explain it to me. Good to see that you can use some scripture to try though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.