John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,422
5,423
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#1
The first four points of Five Point Calvinism are refuted by Scripture. And for the last point, the Bible says that the saints are “Kept by the power of God”.

1. THE “WATER” OF THE GOSPEL IS THE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Calvinism teaches that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Bible says that “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God” (the Gospel).

2. SALVATION IS FOR “WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH”

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Which means that “Unconditional Election” is false.

3. CHRIST DIED FOR ALL, SO THAT ALL “MIGHT” BE SAVED.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Which means that “Limited Atonement” is false.

4. ALL MAY EITHER BELIEVE, OR DISBELIEVE

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Which means that “Total Depravity” and “Irresistible Grace” are false.

5. THE UNSAVED CHOOSE DARKNESS OVER LIGHT

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Which means that God does not decree anyone for damnation.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
786
113
#2
The first four points of Five Point Calvinism are refuted by Scripture. And for the last point, the Bible says that the saints are “Kept by the power of God”.

1. THE “WATER” OF THE GOSPEL IS THE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Calvinism teaches that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Bible says that “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God” (the Gospel).
There are three things needed for faith, new born etc. - Seed, soil and water.

Seed is a word about Christ

Soil is our heart.

Water of the Spirit is the third ingredience for seed and soil to produce life.

Our evil heart must be "regenerated" or, lets say "prepared, changed" to be bearing from seed and water. Seed needs water to awake and a good soil to grow in.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
786
113
#3
Hm, I realized that the verse has "water and Spirit", so the Spirit cannot be the water in this verse.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#4
Calvinist's GOD, a short story

"Once upon a time there was a birthday party for seven year olds at the house. Forty little kids were having a great time. It was good. The moment came to light the candles on the cake. Dad realized that the ice cream was still in the refrigerator out back (he put it there earlier). He placed the matchbox on the table and said, “Don't light the candles, you'll kill yourselves.” They were special candles that don't blow out. What a treat for seven year olds!

While Dad was delayed getting their ice cream, one of the kids suggested they light the candles and practice blowing them out to get the proper camera angle. So, as the partygoers gathered to blow out the candles one fell on the pile of presents and burst into an inferno. The Dad, realizing what had happened, rushed into the house and carefully and arbitrarily rescued four kids to show the world what a real hero he was. He could have saved the rest but he did not. He let them burn along with the entire house and presents. He wanted to show them his displeasure at their disobedience (which he planned). He locked them in so they could not save themselves.

The four kids and the Dad ate the ice cream in joyous celebration and happiness while the others were weeping, pleading and gnashing their teeth. Occasionally, the four yelled to the others to come out. However, they couldn't get out on their own, only the Dad could rescue them if he had wanted to. In reality the Dad hated those he did not choose and planned for them to burn in the fire before the party began. He even knew the one boy who would light the fire. Moreover, he did not simply foreknow it, he actually ordained it to happen according to his good pleasure. "
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#5
The first four points of Five Point Calvinism are refuted by Scripture. And for the last point, the Bible says that the saints are “Kept by the power of God”.

1. THE “WATER” OF THE GOSPEL IS THE SEED OF THE NEW BIRTH

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Calvinism teaches that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Bible says that “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God” (the Gospel).

2. SALVATION IS FOR “WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH”

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Which means that “Unconditional Election” is false.

3. CHRIST DIED FOR ALL, SO THAT ALL “MIGHT” BE SAVED.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Which means that “Limited Atonement” is false.

4. ALL MAY EITHER BELIEVE, OR DISBELIEVE

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Which means that “Total Depravity” and “Irresistible Grace” are false.

5. THE UNSAVED CHOOSE DARKNESS OVER LIGHT

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Which means that God does not decree anyone for damnation.
Your first point. that faith comes be hearing does not prove Calvin's "regeneration before they were born" wrong. Because only a regenerated person will ever believe and have faith at some appointed time in their life. So I dismiss your first point.

Unconditional election is true, because nobody deserves it. God gives it to whom He wills, so "whosoever believes" describes the elect. So I must dismiss your second point.

Limited atonement is 100% Biblically accurate, why? because God did not want to save the whole world. If He wanted to, He would have achieved His wish. The only way you could be right is if God was not all mighty, so I have to dismiss your third point as well.

The forth one is very easy, "The elect that believeth on Him is not condemned. And the Unbeliever, the non elect is already condemned. So that proves total depravity and irresistible grace are Biblical, so I have to dismiss your forth point as well.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
462
83
#6
Your first point. that faith comes be hearing does not prove Calvin's "regeneration before they were born" wrong. Because only a regenerated person will ever believe and have faith at some appointed time in their life. So I dismiss your first point.
People become regenerated AFTER they believe, not before:

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

People hear the gospel, choose to believe it, THEN they are sealed with the holy spirit (regeneration).

Unconditional election is true, because nobody deserves it. God gives it to whom He wills, so "whosoever believes" describes the elect. So I must dismiss your second point.
While it's true that nobody deserves salvation, God gives it to "whosoever" decides to believe the gospel.

Limited atonement is 100% Biblically accurate, why? because God did not want to save the whole world. If He wanted to, He would have achieved His wish. The only way you could be right is if God was not all mighty, so I have to dismiss your third point as well.
1 John 2:
2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God wants the whole world (all men) to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).

The forth one is very easy, "The elect that believeth on Him is not condemned. And the Unbeliever, the non elect is already condemned. So that proves total depravity and irresistible grace are Biblical, so I have to dismiss your forth point as well.
The elect are people who choose to believe the gospel, something God wants all men to do, and anyone can freely choose to do so.
 

Danny1988

Active member
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#7
People become regenerated AFTER they believe, not before:

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

People hear the gospel, choose to believe it, THEN they are sealed with the holy spirit (regeneration).


While it's true that nobody deserves salvation, God gives it to "whosoever" decides to believe the gospel.


1 John 2:
2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God wants the whole world (all men) to be saved (1 Tim 2:4).


The elect are people who choose to believe the gospel, something God wants all men to do, and anyone can freely choose to do so.
I think the word regeneration refers to being quickened to life from the "spiritually dead", so I would say that a person needs to be bought to life in order to believe and be saved.

We believe that the ability to believe is a gift from God and He only gives it to His elect. The "whole world" could be referring to the whole elect world. I have to check my Bible, I don't think it says the whole world. I think it just says world, either way I still think it refers to the elect.

There are very learned Bible Theologians why have debated this matter in every detail. I've listened to many debates on sermonaudio.com there's a wealth of audio sermons and debates, where you can listen to the experts debate. I have sided with the Calvinist view because it came across as the most biblically accurate.
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
28
#8
I think the word regeneration refers to being quickened to life from the "spiritually dead", so I would say that a person needs to be bought to life in order to believe and be saved.

There are very learned Bible Theologians why have debated this matter in every detail. I've listened to many debates on sermonaudio.com there's a wealth of audio sermons and debates, where you can listen to the experts debate. I have sided with the Calvinist view because it came across as the most biblically accurate.
What you won’t here and I highly doubt that it has been mentioned and I could be wrong. When they say place “your” faith into Christ atoning work or just put “your” trust into Christ atoning work, one has to ask the question how. How can they put “their” faith and their “trust” into Christ knowing fully well that they are spiritually dead and yet this is what they teach.
 
Mar 14, 2011
69,781
14,943
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#9
Your first point. that faith comes be hearing does not prove Calvin's "regeneration before they were born" wrong. Because only a regenerated person will ever believe and have faith at some appointed time in their life. So I dismiss your first point.
While I disagree with the op, and usually do not converse with him, I must add here. One can not be born again until the sin which made them dead to begin with is first taken care of.

We are justified by faith. Thus faith must come first, THEN justification, THEN regeneration based on justification.

Unconditional election is true, because nobody deserves it. God gives it to whom He wills, so "whosoever believes" describes the elect. So I must dismiss your second point.

Gods will is whoever believes will be given eternal life. (regeneration) so yes, It is unconditional. not based on our works


Limited atonement is 100% Biblically accurate,
Wrong

why? because God did not want to save the whole world. If He wanted to, He would have achieved His wish. The only way you could be right is if God was not all mighty, so I have to dismiss your third point as well.
God is a loving God, God willed that Israel would have recieved him, but they were not willing, He will never force a person to believe him against their free will So yes, God can die for the whole world. and yet the whole world not recieve him, and he still did not fail. In fact he has greater victory and greater glory and honor, because he died for people KNOWING they would reject him. Thus they have no excuse. No one can say God sent me to hell against my free will. because God paid your debt, you refused to recieve his payment, Thats on them not God.

The forth one is very easy, "The elect that believeth on Him is not condemned. And the Unbeliever, the non elect is already condemned. So that proves total depravity and irresistible grace are Biblical, so I have to dismiss your forth point as well.
total depravity means we are totally sinful. yet sinful people can make choices to do good. God draws people to him, and calls them, but as scripture says, MANY are called, but few are chosen (because only a few recieve)
 
Mar 14, 2011
69,781
14,943
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#10
I think the word regeneration refers to being quickened to life from the "spiritually dead", so I would say that a person needs to be bought to life in order to believe and be saved.

We believe that the ability to believe is a gift from God and He only gives it to His elect. The "whole world" could be referring to the whole elect world. I have to check my Bible, I don't think it says the whole world. I think it just says world, either way I still think it refers to the elect.

There are very learned Bible Theologians why have debated this matter in every detail. I've listened to many debates on sermonaudio.com there's a wealth of audio sermons and debates, where you can listen to the experts debate. I have sided with the Calvinist view because it came across as the most biblically accurate.
we are dead because of sin

we are quickened to life because the sin debt has been removed.

ie, we are made alive because we are justified (sins forgiven) we can not be made alive while we are still dead because of sin.

I am sorry, But in this point, the calvinist view is not biblically accurate.
 
Mar 14, 2011
69,781
14,943
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#11
What you won’t here and I highly doubt that it has been mentioned and I could be wrong. When they say place “your” faith into Christ atoning work or just put “your” trust into Christ atoning work, one has to ask the question how. How can they put “their” faith and their “trust” into Christ knowing fully well that they are spiritually dead and yet this is what they teach.
It is when we repent and understand and know full well we are spiritually dead, and only through the gift of Christ can we be made alive based on his redemptive act that causes us to believe, and this is what allows God to justify us freely through his son.

if one does not know they are dead, they will never ask to be made alive.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
462
83
#12
I think the word regeneration refers to being quickened to life from the "spiritually dead", so I would say that a person needs to be bought to life in order to believe and be saved.
Regeneration does refer to being "quickened to life".

It does not matter what you say, but what does the Bible say.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

People hear the gospel, and once they decide to believe it, then they are regenerated, quickened to life by the gift of the holy spirit.

We believe that the ability to believe is a gift from God and He only gives it to His elect.
Yes, that's the Calvinist belief. It's not true.

The "whole world" could be referring to the whole elect world. I have to check my Bible, I don't think it says the whole world. I think it just says world, either way I still think it refers to the elect.
Have you checked yet? The word for "whole" is there in the Greek.

καὶ αὐτὸς ἱλασμός ἐστιν περὶ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν, οὐ περὶ τῶν ἡμετέρων δὲ μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ ὅλου τοῦ κόσμου. (1Jo 2:2 BGT)

The word is "holos" and it means "all, whole, completely."

There are very learned Bible Theologians why have debated this matter in every detail. I've listened to many debates on sermonaudio.com there's a wealth of audio sermons and debates, where you can listen to the experts debate.
Yes. This has been an ongoing debate for centuries.

I have sided with the Calvinist view because it came across as the most biblically accurate.
I do not agree with your choice, and I do not think it is the most biblically accurate. If Calvinism is true, then:

1) "love" is meaningless.
2) God is a respecter of persons
3) It makes God unlovable and untrustworthy.
4) It makes God the author of sin and evil
5) It forces God to have two different wills.
6) It makes it impossible to read the Bible at face value.
7) If Calvinism is true, then evil does not really exist.
8) Calvinism makes being an ambassador for Jesus Christ meaningless.

And more...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,422
5,423
113
#13
Your first point. that faith comes be hearing does not prove Calvin's "regeneration before they were born" wrong. Because only a regenerated person will ever believe and have faith at some appointed time in their life. So I dismiss your first point.

Unconditional election is true, because nobody deserves it. God gives it to whom He wills, so "whosoever believes" describes the elect. So I must dismiss your second point.

Limited atonement is 100% Biblically accurate, why? because God did not want to save the whole world. If He wanted to, He would have achieved His wish. The only way you could be right is if God was not all mighty, so I have to dismiss your third point as well.

The forth one is very easy, "The elect that believeth on Him is not condemned. And the Unbeliever, the non elect is already condemned. So that proves total depravity and irresistible grace are Biblical, so I have to dismiss your forth point as well.
Regurgitating the five points of Calvinism makes no difference. You must either provide Scripture or abandon this false gospel.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#14
What you won’t here and I highly doubt that it has been mentioned and I could be wrong. When they say place “your” faith into Christ atoning work or just put “your” trust into Christ atoning work, one has to ask the question how. How can they put “their” faith and their “trust” into Christ knowing fully well that they are spiritually dead and yet this is what they teach.
you are actually repeating that story about the 40 kids

do you actually suppose that God is like that father in the story?

God has made provision for atonement for all sins

do you know the meaning of the word rebellious?

well you could not be rebellious if you have no choice but to rebel

in that case, you would actually be obedient

Calvinists get themselves into more trouble every time they try to 'splain how God makes up our minds for us
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#15
Critical doctrine by reference to the English translation only. Hmmm...

By all means build it, but test it against the original language(s). Especially if your English translation is 400 years old.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,422
5,423
113
#16
Critical doctrine by reference to the English translation only. Hmmm...

By all means build it, but test it against the original language(s). Especially if your English translation is 400 years old.
It makes no difference, so this is a non-issue.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#17
Hm, I realized that the verse has "water and Spirit", so the Spirit cannot be the water in this verse.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:3


So why does a man have to be born again to see the kingdom of God since it is not of this world, and it is invisible?

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

I wonder how many believe that unless a man is born of the Spirit of truth he cannot enter into the kingdom of God?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; Gen 2:19
  • And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Gen 1:20
  • And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. Gen 1:24



KJV
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
28
#19
you are actually repeating that story about the 40 kids

do you actually suppose that God is like that father in the story?

God has made provision for atonement for all sins

do you know the meaning of the word rebellious?

well you could not be rebellious if you have no choice but to rebel

in that case, you would actually be obedient

Calvinists get themselves into more trouble every time they try to 'splain how God makes up our minds for us
What does this story have to do with what I posted ?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,918
8,033
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#20
It makes no difference, so this is a non-issue.
It most certainly does, if key words in the translation you used may be rightly translated with different words leading to different conclusions.