Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Yes of' course we were lost and without Christ, until we heard the Gospel and responded by utilizing our gift and believing. We were predestined to believe, there was never any doubt that we were saved before we heard the Gospel.

We only claimed our prize because we had the ticket of faith to begin with, while those who don't have the gift and are not of the elect will never believe no matter how many times they hear the Gospel. They go to their grave denying it, the hypocrites who claim to be Christians end up in that same hot place as the non believers do.
What you're saying just is not biblical, in fact, Scripture says that the Lord does not even know you until salvation. He didn't know you before the foundation of the world. God doesn't know you until He has placed His seal upon you, the Holy Spirit. And He doesn't place His seal upon you until you believe the gospel.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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We understand that 1 Tim 2:4 was communicated to believers, so you can easily understand it to mean Who will have all elect men to be saved, and come onto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:9 Not willing that any elect should perish.

In other words, you do not believe what the verses say. You have to change the actual words in the verses so they fit with what you believe.


I don't believe that God gave us a free will to chose to believe and obey Him.

What you believe contradicts the Bible.

Deut 30:
19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I do not believe that God wants (I presume us means everyone) to obey Him, I do not believe that He wants people to choose to believe the Gospel and become saved.

What you believe contradicts the Bible.

I believe God is almighty, so if He WANTS something He has it. To say God wants something but can't have it speaks of an impotent God who is not almighty and who can't get what He wants.
You can say and believe whatever you want. But what you say and believe does not match what is written in the scriptures.

The God described in the Bible is almighty, all powerful and a all knowing sovereign God. I don't get the sense that He is lacking in any way, so if He wants something He gets it every single time.
God is certainly not lacking. But the "sovereign" understanding of God that Calvinists hold is contradicted by what is written in the Bible. People and the devil do things ALL THE TIME that are not God's will.

All you have been doing is saying what you believe. Again, you can say and believe whatever you want, but it should be a warning to you when you need to actually change the words of scripture to make them fit your belief, or when what you believe actually contradicts what is written.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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In other words, you do not believe what the verses say. You have to change the actual words in the verses so they fit with what you believe.


What you believe contradicts the Bible.

Deut 30:
19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


What you believe contradicts the Bible.


You can say and believe whatever you want. But what you say and believe does not match what is written in the scriptures.


God is certainly not lacking. But the "sovereign" understanding of God that Calvinists hold is contradicted by what is written in the Bible. People and the devil do things ALL THE TIME that are not God's will.

All you have been doing is saying what you believe. Again, you can say and believe whatever you want, but it should be a warning to you when you need to actually change the words of scripture to make them fit your belief, or when what you believe actually contradicts what is written.
What we believe in no way contradicts any scripture, we believe the Bible is referring to the elect every time when it speaks about the subject of salvation.

How do you deal with the verses below and conclude that God doesn't choose those who He elects.

Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Ephesians 1:4-13
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

Galatians 1:15
But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased

Romans 9:10-16
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

Ephesians 1:4-11
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him.

Ephesians 1:5-8
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
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Forest has "explained" 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9; Eph 1:13; Eze 33:11 in order to make them fit Calvinism.

What is your explanation?

If God only gives some people the ability to believe, and purposely withholds it from others, how is that fair? How is that just? How is that love? How is God not a respecter of persons? Our being ambassadors for Christ becomes meaningless. It is not meaningless. We are to persuade people to become reconciled to God.
How is your statement any different then the fact Christ look down the corridors of time and saw who would chose and who wouldn't. So with that in mind God had already knew who he would condemn and who he wouldn't because he saw and knew. If this is the case then we could say that God is a respecter of persons and not fair because of the fact he saw and knew.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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God doesn’t condemn anyone to hell! We do that all by ourselves! Both by the sin of Adam, and then our own sin, we all fall short of the glory of God! ALL!

But God in his mercy, chose some of us, and saved us. Those he did not choose, he left to the same fate we deserved! Hell!

Instead of of fighting over this issue, we should all be grateful that God did predestined us to be his children! We should be finding common ground to pray share the gospel with the lost. Because people are saved by hearing the gospel! And how shall they hear without a preacher?

We we should be working together, using our gifts for the Kingdom of God, and to glorify God. He is the potter, we are the clay!

I know I am grateful God saved me, what about the rest of you?
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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God doesn’t condemn anyone to hell! We do that all by ourselves! Both by the sin of Adam, and then our own sin, we all fall short of the glory of God! ALL!

But God in his mercy, chose some of us, and saved us. Those he did not choose, he left to the same fate we deserved! Hell!

Instead of of fighting over this issue, we should all be grateful that God did predestined us to be his children! We should be finding common ground to pray share the gospel with the lost. Because people are saved by hearing the gospel! And how shall they hear without a preacher?

We we should be working together, using our gifts for the Kingdom of God, and to glorify God. He is the potter, we are the clay!

I know I am grateful God saved me, what about the rest of you?
Most Christians blame God for the evil committed by fallen wicked sinners. They have somehow managed to take the sins of men and blame God for them, saying God forced them to sin.

I personally believe this is a sinful thing to do, but most (free choice) Christians believe this to be the case. Their view is, if God only chose to save some and leave others in their sin then He is responsible for their sins. I find this accusation absurd and offensive to God, but sadly the vast majority of the free choice Arminians hold to this view.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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Most Christians blame God for the evil committed by fallen wicked sinners. They have somehow managed to take the sins of men and blame God for them, saying God forced them to sin.

I personally believe this is a sinful thing to do, but most (free choice) Christians believe this to be the case. Their view is, if God only chose to save some and leave others in their sin then He is responsible for their sins. I find this accusation absurd and offensive to God, but sadly the vast majority of the free choice Arminians hold to this view.
That is absolutely not true at all. I am “free choice”, the Christians I fellowship with are “free choice”, there are many “free choice” Christians on this forum, and I do not know a single Christian who blames God for their sins, or who believes God forced them to sin.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Their view is, if God only chose to save some and leave others in their sin then He is responsible for their sins.
That's not the reasoning. The reasoning is that if God elects some for salvation and others for damnation then HE VIOLATES HIS OWN GOSPEL.

You have to make a choice (as does every Calvinist). Believe God and Christ or believe Calvin.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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God doesn’t condemn anyone to hell! We do that all by ourselves! Both by the sin of Adam, and then our own sin, we all fall short of the glory of God! ALL!

But God in his mercy, chose some of us, and saved us. Those he did not choose, he left to the same fate we deserved! Hell!

Instead of of fighting over this issue, we should all be grateful that God did predestined us to be his children! We should be finding common ground to pray share the gospel with the lost. Because people are saved by hearing the gospel! And how shall they hear without a preacher?

We we should be working together, using our gifts for the Kingdom of God, and to glorify God. He is the potter, we are the clay!

I know I am grateful God saved me, what about the rest of you?
Your views are contradictory, Angela. What’s the point of sharing the gospel with the lost if it’s impossible for them to come to Christ because they’re not one of the elect? If they’re elect, it doesn’t matter if we share the gospel with them or not, right? God will see to it that they’re saved, no matter what anyone does...

We are to share the gospel with the lost to give them a chance to hear it, to give them the opportunity to believe, and become saved.

I’m extremely grateful to God who made salvation available through the work of Christ to anyone.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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That is absolutely not true at all. I am “free choice”, the Christians I fellowship with are “free choice”, there are many “free choice” Christians on this forum, and I do not know a single Christian who blames God for their sins, or who believes God forced them to sin.
You know I was referring to the God of the Bible as we in the Reformed Church understand Him.

I know that different denominations make God fit into their particular view of scripture, but I provided many scriptures which show that election and predestination are Biblically correct.

We believe there is only one correct interpretation, we take God at His Word. We don't make Him conform to our expectations of how He should behave or what He should do. We just accept everything He does and worship Him for it, just as Job continued to worship God in the face of his trials and tribulations.

So we believe if God created some people without the gift of belief, that it's His choice and we have no right to put our noses into His business.
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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That's not the reasoning. The reasoning is that if God elects some for salvation and others for damnation then HE VIOLATES HIS OWN GOSPEL.

You have to make a choice (as does every Calvinist). Believe God and Christ or believe Calvin.
Sorry I can't take your word that God violates His own gospel, if He elects some to salvation and He leaves others as they are. Those who haven't been elected sin on their own stem, God doesn't force them to sin.
They sin against God, knowing that God promised to punish them but they do it because they hate God and they love their sin. So God has to punish them or He wouldn't be a just God, I don't know why it's so hard for you guys to see this truth.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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Sorry I can't take your word that God violates His own gospel, if He elects some to salvation and He leaves others as they are. Those who haven't been elected sin on their own stem, God doesn't force them to sin.
They sin against God, knowing that God promised to punish them but they do it because they hate God and they love their sin. So God has to punish them or He wouldn't be a just God, I don't know why it's so hard for you guys to see this truth.
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Who is the all? The elect only like some other passages Calvinists claim?

The bold part above describes you too at one time. As per Calvin, you didn't have a choice in the matter, God made it for you. You didn't choose to repent. A just God has to give the choice to obey Him or not. Your elect have no choice because God chose them in the beginning to repent and all others have no choice because they were not chosen. How flawed is that?

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Here, the election are enemies of the gospel, but loved by God because of the seed line of Christ. You see, election has nothing to do with being saved before the foundation of the world, but it has to do with service. Jesus Christ is God's elect (Isaiah 42). Did Jesus Christ need salvation?
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Who is the all? The elect only like some other passages Calvinists claim?

The bold part above describes you too at one time. As per Calvin, you didn't have a choice in the matter, God made it for you. You didn't choose to repent. A just God has to give the choice to obey Him or not. Your elect have no choice because God chose them in the beginning to repent and all others have no choice because they were not chosen. How flawed is that?

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Here, the election are enemies of the gospel, but loved by God because of the seed line of Christ. You see, election has nothing to do with being saved before the foundation of the world, but it has to do with service. Jesus Christ is God's elect (Isaiah 42). Did Jesus Christ need salvation?
Regeneration is that change in the person that occurs when God indwells him and makes him a new creature (John 3:3-8; 14:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17). The question is when does it occur, before or after faith. Within Christian theology, there has been a wide variety of disagreements on this topic, but the two basic camps of thought are Arminian and Calvinist.

Generally speaking, in the Arminian camp regeneration comes after faith. In the Calvinist camp, regeneration comes before faith.
Arminians assert that we must believe in order to become Christians and when we become Christians we are regenerated. Calvinists assert that a person is not able to believe of his own free will because of the doctrine of total depravity (that his free will is a slave of sin). Therefore, in the Calvinist camp regeneration precedes faith.

Each side is with its proponents and opponents as well as strengths and weaknesses. However, since I lean towards the Calvinist camp, I hold to regeneration preceding faith. But not in a temporal sense. Let me explain with an illustration.

In a light bulb, electricity must be in place in order for light to occur. But, it is not true that light must in place for electricity to occur. The light is dependent on the electricity, not the other way around. Therefore, the electricity is logically first, but not temporally first because when the electricity is present, light is the necessary and simultaneous result. Likewise, regeneration must be in place in order for believing to occur.

When regeneration is in place, faith is the necessary and simultaneous result. Finally, when we say logical order we must clarify that it is not an order of temporality, but of logical necessity.
Logical priority is different than temporal priority. As with the light bulb and electricity, one is logically prior to the other even though they are simultaneous.
If, however, regeneration preceded faith temporally, let's say by five seconds, then we would have someone who's regenerate, but also not a believer for about five seconds.

That is problematic. Likewise, if faith precedes regeneration, let's say by five seconds, then we would have someone who is a believer, but is also not regenerate for about five seconds. See the problem?

This is why it seems better to say that the order of regeneration preceding faith or faith preceding regeneration ought not to be a temporal one, but a logical one. It makes more sense to say that regeneration must be in place for a person to believe, but belief is a necessary result of that regeneration.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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That is problematic. Likewise, if faith precedes regeneration, let's say by five seconds, then we would have someone who is a believer, but is also not regenerate for about five seconds. See the problem?

This is why it seems better to say that the order of regeneration preceding faith or faith preceding regeneration ought not to be a temporal one, but a logical one. It makes more sense to say that regeneration must be in place for a person to believe, but belief is a necessary result of that regeneration.
I'd rather go with what Scripture says clearly. What's the order according to Scripture, not the Calvin or Armenian camps:

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Step 1: One must hear the word of truth
Step 2: One must believe the word of truth
Step 3: The believer in the word of truth is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise guaranteeing our inheritance of the redemption, which is, the adoption (Romans 8:23). It is the believer's promise of being adopted as a son of God. The believer will be the praise of God's glory, future tense, who first trusted in Christ.

You cannot find anywhere in Scripture where one was regenerated, born again, as a child of God before they trusted God's word.

Btw, I'm not a Calvinist or Armenian, but a bible believer.:)
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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You know I was referring to the God of the Bible as we in the Reformed Church understand Him.

I know that different denominations make God fit into their particular view of scripture, but I provided many scriptures which show that election and predestination are Biblically correct.

We believe there is only one correct interpretation, we take God at His Word. We don't make Him conform to our expectations of how He should behave or what He should do. We just accept everything He does and worship Him for it, just as Job continued to worship God in the face of his trials and tribulations.

So we believe if God created some people without the gift of belief, that it's His choice and we have no right to put our noses into His business.
All you did was repeat what you believe, you did not address the false things you said about people who believe people have a choice.

Most Christians blame God for the evil committed by fallen wicked sinners. They have somehow managed to take the sins of men and blame God for them, saying God forced them to sin.

I personally believe this is a sinful thing to do, but most (free choice) Christians believe this to be the case. Their view is, if God only chose to save some and leave others in their sin then He is responsible for their sins. I find this accusation absurd and offensive to God, but sadly the vast majority of the free choice Arminians hold to this view.
Nothing in this post is true.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
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How is your statement any different then the fact Christ look down the corridors of time and saw who would chose and who wouldn't. So with that in mind God had already knew who he would condemn and who he wouldn't because he saw and knew. If this is the case then we could say that God is a respecter of persons and not fair because of the fact he saw and knew.
It's different because Christ did not "look down the corridors of time and saw who would chose and who wouldn't." God did not already know who He would condemn and who He wouldn't.

God is not a respecter of persons. Salvation is available to anyone. We preach the gospel to give people a chance to hear it. It's up to them to decide to believe it or not.
 

Slayer

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
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I'd rather go with what Scripture says clearly. What's the order according to Scripture, not the Calvin or Armenian camps:

Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Step 1: One must hear the word of truth
Step 2: One must believe the word of truth
Step 3: The believer in the word of truth is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise guaranteeing our inheritance of the redemption, which is, the adoption (Romans 8:23). It is the believer's promise of being adopted as a son of God. The believer will be the praise of God's glory, future tense, who first trusted in Christ.

You cannot find anywhere in Scripture where one was regenerated, born again, as a child of God before they trusted God's word.

Btw, I'm not a Calvinist or Armenian, but a bible believer.:)
All of the above mentioned can be applied to an elect person who is going trough the process of being saved.

I didn't know there was a third option to understanding the scriptures which deal with predestination and free choice. The two choices are, either God elects to save you or you are saved by personally choosing to believe the Gospel.

Those of us who believe God chooses us have a lot of Bible verses to support our belief. I've heard many debates by highly educated Bible scholars and theologians, and I side with the Calvinists.

We are Bible believers as well, so the debate will go on for another 500 years if Christ doesn't return first.

How do you reconcile your views with the verses below.

Romans 8:29-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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All of the above mentioned can be applied to an elect person who is going trough the process of being saved.

I didn't know there was a third option to understanding the scriptures which deal with predestination and free choice. The two choices are, either God elects to save you or you are saved by personally choosing to believe the Gospel.

Those of us who believe God chooses us have a lot of Bible verses to support our belief. I've heard many debates by highly educated Bible scholars and theologians, and I side with the Calvinists.

We are Bible believers as well, so the debate will go on for another 500 years if Christ doesn't return first.

How do you reconcile your views with the verses below.

Romans 8:29-30 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Paul is talking to already saved believers. He's telling them of their future destination. The believer in Christ is predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This is NOT SALVATION, but a future promise of deliverance from the corrupt body. See chapters 7-8.

This term predestined is also used in Ephesians 1 pointing to the same thing. Again a promise to those who are in Him.

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


What is the adoption? Glad you asked. The adoption is the redemption of the body, when we will finally be in the image of Christ and and be recognized as a son of God.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Predestination is the promise to the believer that their future is secure and will be adopted by God as a son. Right now, we bear the image of Adam, but we shall bear the image of the heavenly. This adoption will take place at the rapture.

1 Corinthians 15
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


God knows us at salvation by the Spirit He has placed within us. Before salvation, God does not know us.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Now that God knows me, why would I turn back to trusting in the works of the law?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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God's foreknowledge...He knows me as a son even before the adoption as a son takes place. I can confidently say that I'm a son because of the seal of the Holy Spirit God has placed upon me at salvation (the moment I believed).
 

Slayer

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Jul 23, 2018
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God's foreknowledge...He knows me as a son even before the adoption as a son takes place. I can confidently say that I'm a son because of the seal of the Holy Spirit God has placed upon me at salvation (the moment I believed).
We agree on everything except at which point a person is saved. I believe God chose to save us before he made the world, so we don't know when the person is saved. You may have received the seal of the Holy Spirit, but we don't believe you discovered it. We believe the Holy Spirit discovered you and bestowed the ability to respond positively to the Gospel when you hear it.

We believe God does most of the work, when it comes to save a person from their life of sin.