Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

I believe God has accomplished all the word on the cross, one needs just to believe and call upon Him to be saved.

What's your thoughts on Galatians 4:9? But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Yes, I can relate. I was like the pig going back to the mire after being washed clean when I was first I converted. We sin less, the longer we walk after Christ. The ultimate goal is sinless perfection, but we must suffer some affliction first.

After you are known of God...does God know you before the foundation of the world or the moment one believes?

You don't have to take my word but you do take to take God at his Word.

1 TIMOTHY 2

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

So if God were to only elect some for salvation, He would be violating His own Word. Did you ever stop to think that Calvinism makes God a liar?

The Bible tells us that those He foreknew before He laid down the foundations of the earth He saved. So we believe God knew us before He made the world and He saved us before He made the world, all we do is claim our prize when we hear the Gospel.

No I don't believe that Calvinism makes God a liar, I do believe you have taken scriptures out of their intended content and applied them to suit your own private view.

We believe your point 4, "all men to be saved' is speaking to believers so it means all believers to be saved. Your god is weak and impotent, he doesn't have the power to achieve his goals.
Our God is almighty, He succeeds every time. He never fails like the Arminian god does so often, when he tries to save all men but only manages to save a few. Now that's what we call weak and impotent.


6. "Ransom far all" again is speaking to believers, so all believers will be saved. There is no conflict between Calvinism and the Bible, the only conflict is the accusation by those who don't understand the scriptures properly.

In Eph 1, Paul said God choose "US" (people) even including himself by using the word "US". "IN HIM" in Christ. before he ever formed the earth, That "WE" (people), should be holy and without blame before him in love ( after Jesus paid the price for our sins God said in Psalms 103:12, As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. ); having predestinated "US" (people) unto the adoption of children (people) by Jesus Christ, ( choosing a person is the first step of the adoption ), Why did God do this? because it was by the good pleasure of his will ( He always accomplishes his will, Dan 4:35 ) and another reason he did this is, because ( by his forknowledge ) Psalms 53:2-3, he looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek him. Every one of them is gone back, they are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no not one. as described in 1 C02 2:14. Had God not choosen some he would not have had anybody of his creation to honor and praise him. The second phase of the adoption ( of people ) is to pay the legal fees, which Jesus paid by going to the cross, as a sacrifice for the sins of the ( people ) he had choosen, and it was a sacrifice to God (for his acceptance) and not a sacrifice to man for man's acceptance. The third phase of the adoption is when the child that has been adopted is redeemed and taken home with the father that adopted him, and that will be when Jesus returns on that redemption day and takes us home with him.

Scripture please...

Why would Paul suffer so much pain getting the gospel to parts of the earth when it doesn't matter? The so called elect are going to be saved no matter what because of God's choosing. In fact, they were saved before the foundation of the world. Somehow they were in Christ, fell out of Christ when Adam sinned, and got back into Christ before they believed. Such nonsense...

23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

I wouldn't go through this. If I believed John Calvin's RCC fatalism, I wouldn't spend one moment preaching the gospel.

How about, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Is the "all" in this verse speaking of believers only?

The inspired bible is God's instruction book, written to his children instructing them how they are to live their lives while they live here on this earth. It is not written to those who are not his children. Preachers should be preaching these instructions. Repent, confess, work, love your God and love one another. These are things we can do to be saved ( delivered ) while we live here in this world. there are no salvation scriptures telling us how to get saved eternally and only a few that tells us how we were saved eternally. Most of the salvation scriptures are telling us what we can do to be saved (delivered) while we live this side of heaven, and yes, our timely deliverance are gained by our good works.

I hope I have listed enough scriptures below to persuade you to join us in the predestined, elect camp. Leave the Armininas behind and join us, you will be warmly welcomed

Ephesians 1:3-14
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Romans 9:15-24
For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Exodus 33:19
And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

Isaiah 65:1
"I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name.

Jeremiah 18:1-12
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying, "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I will announce My words to you." Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something on the wheel.

John 15:16-17
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. "This I command you, that you love one another.

John 17:6
"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Romans 9:10-13
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

Ephesians 2:8-10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Nehemiah 9:7-8
"You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham. "You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite-- To give it to his descendants And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

Genesis 15:7-8
And He said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it." He said, "O Lord GOD, how may I know that I will possess it?"

Genesis 18:19
"For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31
For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,

Deuteronomy 7:7-8
"The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

Matthew 1:21
"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

James 1:18
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

1 Thessalonians 1:2-4
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5
for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

John 6:37-40
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Romans 11:28-36
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

Romans 8:31-39
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

John 10:27-29
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 17:2
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

Colossians 3:12-14
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.

Philippians 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

2 Peter 1:3-11
seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,

The bible has three audiences, the Jew, the Gentile, and the church of God. You have to ask yourself, to whom is this passage written to and to whom does this doctrine apply?

this is the whole problem (vs.) which is like two fighters trying to 'win'!!!
but, the scriptures plainly tell us,
'Let there be no divisions among you'. -

so, man named 'denominations' have much soul-searching to do...

It is written to all three. It is written to every child of God. It is written to all of the people whom God elected to be his adopted children, his elect. The first chapter of Ezk talks about a wheel within a wheel, that I think is representative of the big wheel being all of God's elect and the smaller wheel within the larger wheel being the church that Jesus set up. This understanding fits with Matt 7:13-14, The wide gate being the larger wheel and the straight gate being the church that Jesus set up. The large wheel and the wide gate I term as the church universal. All are the elect children of God, but the wide gate are those children who need to be delivered from their lack of knowledge of the law of grace and are going about trying to establish their own righteousness by preaching eternal salvation by the works of the old law, as most are doing on this forum. Paul talks about this in Romans the 10th chapter and presents a solution for them to be delivered (saved) from that fault. Most of the scriptures that are used on this forum to uphold man's part in his eternal salvation are actually the same warnings to God's children to be delivered from their lack of knowledge of eternal salvation by the grace of God. These scripture warnings use words like; repent, confess, accept, believe, walk in the Spirit, do good works, etc.

The scriptures also plainly tell us to search the scriptures to see if these things be so. They tell us to reprove each other, not in a judgmental way but so that we may be edified.

Nehemiah, you have failed to read what many of us have posted. You somehow think double predestination means God picks those he will save, and he also picks those he rejects, or damns. I used to believe in single predestination, but I couldn't abide by the idea of God sending people to hell. I would not call myself Reformed, because of that.

Then I read a great book by RC Sproule, who debunked this Arminian myth about Reformed/Calvinist beliefs. In fact, we are ALL deserving of hell.

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (although it is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed— 22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:21-24

The fact that God in his mercy picks some of the "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," is amazing grace. I do not know why God picked me, all I know, is that he did. And that is no boasting on my part.

In short, Reformed people believe ALL people are going to hell, and God elects to save some of them. He selects no one for damnation, as we are ALL deserving of that. But for Jesus Christ! Hallelujah!

On the contrary, some of the greatest evangelists were Calvinistic. That includes Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield. They worked side by side with Arminian Methodists, such as John Wesley. Between this group, and others, the Great Awakening happened in the USA and Great Britian.

The fact is, evangelism is scriptural. God commands us to all have a hand in preaching the gospel, so that they may be saved. This is God's way, not Calvin's.

"But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame. 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Romans 10:8-14

All I know is before God saved me, people were witnessing to me all the time. It was an onslaught. I had the Bible preached over and over to me. Then, my future husband told me I had to repent, and God saved me. No sinners prayer, no accepting Christ, just God, by his sovereign grace saving me!

Not only is that logical, but that is exactly what you will find in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

CHAPTER 3
"3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death."

Now if that is by "a decree of God" then it means that God has chosen some for damnation. AND THAT IS A DAMNABLE DOCTRINE.

I hope you just didn't repent, but believed the gospel of Jesus Christ and called upon Him to save you. Many understand that they are sinners and repent. But what are they repenting to? Who are they turning to for forgiveness?