OSAS= House Built on Sand

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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#361
Mar 23, 2016
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#361
reneweddaybyday said:
Genesis 15:

9 And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.

10 And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.

11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.



vs 9-10 – in agreement Abraham cut and divided the pieces.

Not in agreement Abraham walked through in order to confirm the covenant.

vs 11 – Abraham drove away the fowls.

vs 12 – Abraham fell into a deep sleep.

vs 13 – God reveals His promise to Abraham

vs 17 – a smoking furnace and a burning lamp passed between the pieces.


Was Abraham the smoking furnace?
Was Abraham the burning lamp?
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My understanding is that in vs 11, as Abraham was waiting for God to appear so both he (Abraham) and God could pass between the pieces, and thereby ratify the covenant, fowls came upon the pieces and Abraham drove them away.

Then Abraham fell into a deep sleep and the Lord spoke to him in his dream.

The covenant in Gen 15 was ratified by God Himself as Abraham watched. The covenant is a unilateral covenant confirmed by God. The covenant is based on Who God is, not who Abraham is or what Abraham does.


There is another covenant in Gen 17 which was entered into by Abraham and the token of the covenant is circumcision.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#362
Sep 4, 2012
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#362
reneweddaybyday said:
The covenant in Gen 15 was ratified by God Himself as Abraham watched. The covenant is a unilateral covenant confirmed by God. The covenant is based on Who God is, not who Abraham is or what Abraham does.


There is another covenant in Gen 17 which was entered into by Abraham and the token of the covenant is circumcision.
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There's no basis for saying Abraham didn't participate. Blood covenants were always performed by the parties involved.

The circumcision covenant wasn't a blood covenant.
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#363
Mar 23, 2016
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#363
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
There's no basis for saying Abraham didn't participate. Blood covenants were always performed by the parties involved.
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Genesis 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

Was Abraham the smoking furnace?
Was Abraham the burning lamp?


In agreement Abraham participated in dividing (cutting) the heifer, the she goat, the ram, the turtle dove, and the pidgeon.

Not in agreement Abraham ratified/confirmed the covenant. The covenant was unilateral.

"However, there was an important difference in the blood oath that God made with Abraham in Genesis 15. When the evening came, God appeared in the form of a “smoking fire pot and flaming torch [that] passed between the pieces” (Genesis 15:17). But Abraham had fallen “into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him” (verse 12). Thus, God alone passed through the pieces of dead animals, and the covenant was sealed by God alone. Nothing depended on Abraham. Everything depended on God, who promised to be faithful to His covenant. “When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself” (Hebrews 6:13-18). Abraham and his descendants could trust, count on, and believe in everything God promised."​
​





HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The circumcision covenant wasn't a blood covenant.
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In agreement.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#364
Sep 4, 2012
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#364
reneweddaybyday said:
Genesis 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

Was Abraham the smoking furnace?
Was Abraham the burning lamp?


In agreement Abraham participated in dividing (cutting) the heifer, the she goat, the ram, the turtle dove, and the pidgeon.

Not in agreement Abraham ratified/confirmed the covenant. The covenant was unilateral.

"However, there was an important difference in the blood oath that God made with Abraham in Genesis 15. When the evening came, God appeared in the form of a “smoking fire pot and flaming torch [that] passed between the pieces” (Genesis 15:17). But Abraham had fallen “into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him” (verse 12). Thus, God alone passed through the pieces of dead animals, and the covenant was sealed by God alone. Nothing depended on Abraham. Everything depended on God, who promised to be faithful to His covenant. “When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself” (Hebrews 6:13-18). Abraham and his descendants could trust, count on, and believe in everything God promised."​
​

In agreement.
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Did it ever occur to all the know-it-alls that maybe Abraham passed through the pieces after he divided them and was waiting for GOD to come and do the same?
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#365
Mar 23, 2016
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#365
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Did it ever occur to all the know-it-alls that maybe Abraham passed through the pieces after he divided them and was waiting for GOD to come and do the same?
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I don't understand why a person is spoken of derogatorily just because you do not agree with them ... wouldn't both parties be considered the so-called "know-it-all" when two parties do not agree???

As far as whether Abraham passed through ... I'm just reading the text. There is no indication Abraham passed through the pieces. The text is silent on that point.

 
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Ralph-

Guest
#366
#366
reneweddaybyday said:
Perhaps you'd like to show FROM THE CONTEXT that the arrabōn (earnest) could be taken away

Two of the records wherein arrabōn (earnest) is mentioned also indicate that we are sealed.

When God places His seal in our hearts, He does not remove it.
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Galatians is where we see that if a son becomes a slave he is no longer an heir of the Holy Spirit. He loses the Holy Spirit in salvation:

"14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." - Galatians 3:13-14

"28 ...you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise (of the Holy Spirit, vs.14)." - Galatians 3:28-29

"6Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir (of the Holy Spirit, vs.14) through God." - Galatians 4:6-7

"9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?" - Galatians 4:9

"21Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?" - Galatians 4:21

"30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.” - Galatians 4:30


There it is. If you fall away from faith in Christ and rely on works of the law you become a slave and you "shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman". The inheritance is the Holy Spirit. You LOSE the inheritance, the Holy Spirit (of which we have a down payment now) if you fall away from faith in Christ.

There's two ways to try to wiggle out of this in order to preserve a 'once saved always saved' doctrine. First, you can say they weren't 'really' true believers. But Paul makes it very clear in the passages above that they really are/were believing sons (i.e. vs. 4:6 above). Second, you can say they simply lose the benefit of the Holy Spirit in sanctification. Problem: The author of Hebrews says you won't see the Lord without sanctification (Hebrews 12:14). Not seeing the Lord is talking about salvation: "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"-John 3:3.



reneweddaybyday said:
For myself, I trust much more in God’s ability to establish me than in my ability to establish myself.

You think you can do a better job of it than God at maintaining yourself? Have at it.
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I did not know that believing in Christ is me trying to maintain myself. Do you have a verse for that?

You don't even realize that you're saying to trust in the Lord, too, but for some reason when you say it it isn't you trying to save yourself, but when I say it is. Very, very strange doctrine.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
#367
#367
reneweddaybyday said:
Please show me where I submitted a post which indicates I stated what you claim. You alleging that unnamed people say what you claim does not mean people say what you allege has been stated.
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Is the story of the Prodigal Son a text that proves the believer can not lose his salvation? If you say, 'no', we'll leave it at that, and we'll move on. If you say, 'yes', you'll have to explain how 'once saved always saved' says that only fake 'not really' believers leave but then turns right around and says the Prodigal Son (who left) shows you can not lose your salvation.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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#368
Mar 23, 2016
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#368
Ralph- said:
Is the story of the Prodigal Son a text that proves the believer can not lose his salvation? If you say, 'no', we'll leave it at that, and we'll move on. If you say, 'yes', you'll have to explain how 'once saved always saved' says that only fake 'not really' believers leave but then turns right around and says the Prodigal Son (who left) shows you can not lose your salvation.
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Jesus spoke all three parables in Luke 15 in response to the pharisees and scribes who murmured when they saw Jesus receiveth sinners, and eateth with them (Luke 15:2).

Jesus then spoke about the sheep who wanders and the shepherd who leaves the 99 to search for the one lost. The shepherd seeks until he finds the lost sheep and when he finds it, he carries the sheep back to the fold.

The woman with the lost coin searches diligently until she finds it and rejoices when it is found.

Most people refer to the parable in Luke 15:11-32 as the story of the prodigal son, but really it's the story of the forgiving father. Both sons represent the audience Jesus is speaking to.

The son who leaves and wastes his substance with riotous living represents the publicans and sinners of Luke 15:1.

The son who stays home and serves his father, but is bitter when his brother is joyously received by his father, represents the pharisees and scribes who murmured when they saw that Jesus receiveth sinners, and eateth with them (Luke 15:2).

Jesus is telling the publicans and sinners that God is diligently seeking them out, searching for them, and He will receive them when they return to Father.

Jesus is telling the pharisees and scribes that they should rejoice and be glad that publicans and sinners are seeking out Jesus and listening to Him as He teaches the truth of God's Word.

The parables are a response to the hardened hearts of the pharisees and scribes who thought they were so much better than the publicans and sinners who flocked to Jesus.

 
lightbearer

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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#369
UnderGrace said:
Paul is referring to salvation as a prize to be won?
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It is Paul’s and analogy not mine.
So run, that we may obtain. Keeping under our body, and bringing it into subjection: lest that by any means, when we have preached to others, we ourselves should be a castaway.


Well now that contradicts that salvation is a gift? Roman 6:23
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The Gift of GOD is Life Eternal IN Christ Jesus. Where we running? In and then out? Got to be IN to win and partake of the Gift.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#370
#370
lightbearer said:
It is Paul’s and analogy not mine.
So run, that we may obtain. Keeping under our body, and bringing it into subjection: lest that by any means, when we have preached to others, we ourselves should be a castaway.


The Gift of GOD is Life Eternal IN Christ Jesus. Where we running? In and then out? Got to be IN to win and partake of the Gift.
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Then its not a gift, it is a reward which must be earned, good luck in trying to earn your salvation.
 
G

gb9

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#371
Jan 18, 2011
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eternally-gratefull said:
Then its not a gift, it is a reward which must be earned, good luck in trying to earn your salvation.
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it is just amazing how some cannot accept " it is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God" means exactly what it says it means.
 
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Embankment

Senior Member
#372
Feb 28, 2017
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#372
reneweddaybyday said:
Jesus spoke all three parables in Luke 15 in response to the pharisees and scribes who murmured when they saw Jesus receiveth sinners, and eateth with them (Luke 15:2).

Jesus think spoke about the sheep who wanders and the shepherd who leaves the 99 to search for the one lost. The shepherd seeks until he finds the lost sheep and when he finds it, he carries the sheep back to the fold.

The woman with the lost coin searches diligently until she finds it and rejoices when it is found.

Most people refer to the parable in Luke 15:11-32 as the story of the prodigal son, but really it's the story of the forgiving father. Both sons represent the audience Jesus is speaking to.

The son who leaves and wastes his substance with riotous living represents the publicans and sinners of Luke 15:1.

The son who stays home and serves his father, but is bitter when his brother is joyously received by his father, represents the pharisees and scribes who murmured when they saw that Jesus receiveth sinners, and eateth with them (Luke 15:2).

Jesus is telling the publicans and sinners that God is diligently seeking them out, searching for them, and He will receive them when they return to Father.

Jesus is telling the pharisees and scribes that they should rejoice and be glad that publicans and sinners are seeking out Jesus and listening to Him as He teaches the truth of God's Word.

The parables are a response to the hardened hearts of the pharisees and scribes who thought they were so much better than the publicans and sinners who flocked to Jesus.
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I agree with you analogy. I think these parables symbolize much more. They show the mindset of the Jewish leaders that are about to be shown the mercy of God when not only sinners but gentles will be welcomed and accepted as children of God.
The Jews of that time viewed God as their God only. They were doing all the WORK and the non Jews were playing. They to this day still do not except the grace of Jesus that was extended to ALL of God’s children.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#373
#373
gb9 said:
it is just amazing how some cannot accept " it is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God" means exactly what it says it means.
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Its calld pride, pride refuss to allow someone else to hel you, or you to feel helpless, pride has to have a part, or it will reject, pride rejects grace, thats why the pharisees rejected Christ,
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

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#374
Sep 4, 2012
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#374
gb9 said:
it is just amazing how some cannot accept " it is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God" means exactly what it says it means.
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I think when we get down to the basics we will find that there are those who think the gift is theirs to keep no matter what they do, and those who think the gift has conditions attached to it.

The latter group recognizes that eternal security exists when those conditions are met, (this approach reconciles all scripture, both promises and warnings), and the latter group does not believe that eternal security can exist if there are conditions (this approach believes only the promises and ignores and twists the large amount of scripture that warns against disobedience).
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#375
Apr 22, 2013
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#375
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
I think when we get down to the basics we will find that there are those who think the gift is theirs to keep no matter what they do, and those who think the gift has conditions attached to it.

The latter group recognizes that eternal security exists when those conditions are met, (this approach reconciles all scripture, both promises and warnings), and the latter group does not believe that eternal security can exist if there are conditions (this approach believes only the promises and ignores and twists the large amount of scripture that warns against disobedience).
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Yeah.... Cause I ALWAYS give GIFTS that have strings and conditions attached!
I can just imagine me writing in the numerous gift cards I've given this graduation season.

" Use this money for good purposes ONLY, or I'm going to come and take it back, and by the way, congratulations!!!!"

THAT'S what you are saying our Heavenly Father says to us.
Simply ludicrous!
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#376
eternally-gratefull said:
Then its not a gift, it is a reward which must be earned, good luck in trying to earn your salvation.
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Amen! Good luck indeed! In regards to 1 Corinthians 9:27, Greek scholar AT Robertson notes: "Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel?" Prize (brabeion) - Strong's #1017 - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph.

That doesn't sound like a free gift (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). A prize is something that you work for and win where a gift is something that you freely accept. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, the NIV says, "..disqualified for the prize," not disqualified for the gift of eternal life.

Notice that verse 24 says, "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or from the prize?
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Sep 4, 2012
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#377
PennEd said:
Yeah.... Cause I ALWAYS give GIFTS that have strings and conditions attached!
I can just imagine me writing in the numerous gift cards I've given this graduation season.

" Use this money for good purposes ONLY, or I'm going to come and take it back, and by the way, congratulations!!!!"

THAT'S what you are saying our Heavenly Father says to us.
Simply ludicrous!
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The bible is filled with exactly that from cover to cover.

Adam, I'm giving you everything in this garden to eat, but not the tree of life that will kill you if you eat it.

Abraham, I'm giving you these promises because you believe me; now I want you to become circumcised and offer your son as a sacrifice.

Israel, I'm giving you this land that you did not earn, but you must be obedient to my voice to remain in it.

Church, I'm giving you righteousness and eternal life free of charge, but you must follow me to keep it.
 
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Embankment

Senior Member
#378
Feb 28, 2017
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#378
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The bible is filled with exactly that from cover to cover.

Adam, I'm giving you everything in this garden to eat, but not the tree of life that will kill you if you eat it.

Abraham, I'm giving you these promises because you believe me; now I want you to become circumcised and offer your son as a sacrifice.

Israel, I'm giving you this land that you did not earn, but you must be obedient to my voice to remain in it.

Church, I'm giving you righteousness and eternal life free of charge, but you must follow me to keep it.
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And how do we follow Jesus?
One word. Love!
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#379
Apr 22, 2013
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#379
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The bible is filled with exactly that from cover to cover.

Adam, I'm giving you everything in this garden to eat, but not the tree of life that will kill you if you eat it.

Abraham, I'm giving you these promises because you believe me; now I want you to become circumcised and offer your son as a sacrifice.

Israel, I'm giving you this land that you did not earn, but you must be obedient to my voice to remain in it.

Church, I'm giving you righteousness and eternal life free of charge, but you must follow me to keep it.
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That you think your Salvation is dependent on YOUR actions, YOUR performance, is truly troubling. Something about "Lord, Lord, have WE not done a bunch of stuff...."

God DID make conditional promises and covenants. However, Abraham's was not one of them. In fact, Abraham was dead asleep when God swore by HIMSELF to keep the covenant with Abraham.

Jesus tells us NONE of His will be lost, and that we are SEALED with the promise by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Once received, God does not rescind His Gift of eternal life! How could He?

If anyone is relying on their Salvation being kept, by ANYTHING they do, or because they "follow" Jesus, they better examine whether they are truly saved. Not saying they aren't, but they better not show up to that wedding feast wearing their OWN filthy rags, rather than the wedding clothes provided by the King!
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#380
#380
PennEd said:
If anyone is relying on their Salvation being kept, by ANYTHING they do, or because they "follow" Jesus, they better examine whether they are truly saved.
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Does this include trusting in Christ?

Are you saying because I trust in Christ for salvation that I need to examine whether or not I'm truly saved?
 
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