Christ is God

yeah you're pretty much not following along eh

that's "moot" by the way

All scripture is written by men who were inspired by the holy men of God who spake as the Holy Ghost moved them, the reason that no prophesy of scripture is of any private interpretation because the all scripture is written by inspiration not by faith. Faith comes by hearing the Spirit of truth not by reading the inspired word of God.

As far as me saying your own rules about actual text makes your own Bible 'mute' which is to say speechless, or unable to speak is why you didn't hear what I said since faith comes by hearing. Had I meant to say your point was debatable whether hearing comes by the word of God then I would have used the word moot.

This is an interesting Question. One in which I struggled with for years before dabbling in biblical hebrew, grabbing myself an interlinear, and praying steadfastly. I went through the whole bible and wrote down scriptures that proved Jesus is God, as well as scriptures that prove or suggests Jesus is not God. I read and listened to commentary, trinitarian, unitarian, JW, Baptist, Orthodox Jewish etc...in order to understand the context of why people believed what they believe, and what the scriptures actually say. From my research I found twelve, only twelve scriptures that supported Jesus as being God. Sadly, at least six of the twelve, under objective scrutiny, were taken out of context or bad translations. So six scriptures are all there is to support Jesus being God out of the entire bible. Adversely, I've found 26 scriptures that suggest otherwise, or outright deny the divinity of Christ. According to my research there are four times as many scriptures that allude to Christ being simply the messiah, the son of God, or the future king of Israel opposed to jesus being God. So it's my honest opinion, based on scripture and research, that Jesus is not God Almighty.

Jesus never claimed to be the Father and there is difference:

Yet from what is quoted from the old testament in the new testament it can be reasonably argued that Jesus was YHWH who was worshiped as God in the OT.

Paul uses Joel's prophecy to establish that Jesus as Lord is in fact the YHWH of the "old testament".

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Hebrew = IEUE or YHWH) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (Hebrew = IEUE or YHWH) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This is a direct quote from Joel 2:32.

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? (Hebrew = IEUE or YWYH) and there is no God else beside me; a just God (Hebrew = EL) and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Paul:

Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Phil 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So here again Paul is equating or stating Jesus is the incarnate God of Israel YHWH.

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(Isa 41:4 KJV) Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD (YWYH), the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

In the Book of Revelation - more correctly called "The Unveiling of Jesus Christ" the Lord Jesus is "revealing" himself as YHWH of the "old testament" to John and his readers:

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches...


Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

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John the Baptist is applying the prophecy of Isaiah to proclaim that Jesus is the Lord spoken of in that verse:


(Mat 3:3 KJV) For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

(Isa 40:3 KJV) The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Hebrew = IEUE YHYH), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

There can be no more clearer indication from the above that the early Christians understood that Jesus was YHWH - "the first and last" of the old testament.

At this point in my spiritual life, I consider this question milk, and I really shouldn't have commented on it at all. However I will give my honest opinion on the matter, not to debate, simply to inform. you did name about thirteen scriptures that you believe allude to Jesus being YHVH. I found six. I've also found over twenty that say otherwise. Question, concerning foreshadowing, types and anti-types, how do you reconcile Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac and it's importance to all those having faith in regards to the Sacrifice of Jesus by his father, for all those having faith?

Professormorris said,

I agree with that as it's the same conclusion I've arrived at. This six times it appears Jesus is YHVH may be mistranslations cause by translators with a Trinitarian slant. And even if it does refer to Jesus, it doesn't imply he's God, only of his preexistence and presence.

Yahweh simply describes God's preexistence and presence. Here's a short page how the word Yahweh became distorted over the centuries by the translators.

The meaning of Yahweh

I completely reject the trinity doctrine. I read and researched a few things on the page Locutus wrote and there are it's full of holes.

It's one thing to claim what i wrote is full of holes but what you need to do is show where I and John the baptist and John in Revelation, Paul are wrong.

What you are doing is claiming that the titles attributed to YHWH from the old testament and applied by the above writers to Jesus is wrong - I think all three of them knew the scriptures better than any of us.

So when they applied those OT titles and identifying passages to Jesus either they were in error or you are.

And what you and ProfessorMortis are doing is denying the divinity of Jesus.

I'm battle weary of dealing with Trinitarians. It's worse than dealing with pretribulationist, preterist, Calvinist, and even Atheist. They condemn people over a doctrine they say is undecipherable and cannot be understood, and that makes no sense at all, just like the Trinity doctrine makes no sense at all.

I spend too much time here as it is. Dealing with Trinitarians on forums stinks because they gang up and condemn people.

The Trinity makes no sense to many of us because Jesus said God was greater. There are dozens of scriptures that show he was subordinate to the father. If Jesus was God, it makes the cross to no effect since we know God cannot sin.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus dwells in the light which no person can approach unto, and no person has ever seen Jesus, nor will any person ever see Jesus, for He is the invisible God, but He showed a visible manifestation of Himself, as His visible relationship to the saints, and to provide salvation.

The Bible says no person calls Jesus the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, which means if they confess Jesus as Lord and Savior it is only because God is working in their life.

But many confess Christ but do not claim Him as Lord, like the Jehovah's witnesses who take away from His deity, and make Him out to be a created God, but there is no such thing as a created God, for it would be of physical matter, and God means supreme being, and His substance not of the physical world.

And the Mormons who take away glory from Jesus and God by saying they will be like God and rule their own planet, and Jesus and Satan were brothers when Jesus is not an angel.

And Catholics that take away glory from Jesus and God by exalting Mary, and the Pope.

And the new age movement that take away the glory and deity of Jesus, and do not believe in a personal God, but say Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher in the evolutionary process that brought a greater understanding of love, and an ascended master and avatar.

And Christian Science, and Scientology, and anybody else that believes Jesus did exist and a great figure for spirituality, but do not look at Him as Lord.

For to confess Jesus as Lord means He is above all principality, power, and dominion, who is the only Potentate, or ruler, and that is because He is God.

There is no trinity, but Jesus is God for the Bible says He is God manifest in the flesh, which means that God manifest His attributes to the man Christ Jesus, and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God, for He cannot be separated, which the Bible says God laid down His life for us physical, and purchased the Church with His own blood.

God appeared in human form to Abraham twice, once with 2 of His angels, and as Melchizedek king of Salem, which the Bible says He was without natural descent having neither father or mother, nor beginning of days, or end of life.

Nobody seems to question it was the LORD in human form in the Old Testament, for whether God prepares a body for Himself made of the dust of the earth, or from the virgin Mary, it is still the invisible God showing a visible manifestation of Himself the only way we can see the invisible God.

The distinction between Father and Son is God and man, divinity and human, Spirit and flesh, and Jesus said the Father is greater than Him, and told Mary to go tell His brethren that He ascends to His Father and their Father, and His God and their God, which He spoke as the man Christ Jesus, for God is greater than the flesh.

Jesus could speak as either God or a man, for He is God showing a visible manifestation of Himself, and the man Christ Jesus the personal human body of God.

There is only one God who is a Holy Spirit, and Father is a title for God, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

Not 3 persons in one God, but the 3 relationships God has with His saints designated by titles, but it is the same God with no distinction of persons.

Father- title for God's parental role.

Son- God's visible relationship to the saints.

Holy Spirit- God's invisible relationship to the saints.

In the Old Testament the Father said He would reveal a new name to the saints and speak with them, which Jesus said to Philip, if you have seen Me then you have seen the Father, for the words that I speak are not My own, but the Father that dwells in Me, He does the works.

Jesus said He came in His Father's name, and in Hebrews 1 the Son inherited the name of the Father, and in John 14 the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

The name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is Jesus, for there is only one God.

Jesus is the only visible manifestation of God we will ever see, and He does not sit on a throne in heaven next to the Father.

There is only one throne in heaven, and one who sits on that throne, which is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus said all power is given to Him in heaven and earth.

Jesus sits on the right hand of God.

David said, the LORD said unto My Lord, sit on My right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.

For the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered, the last one being death, and then the Son shall submit to God, even the Father, that God may be all in all.

The Savior is the man Christ Jesus for only a sinless man can approach a holy God to reconcile mankind to God, but no person is sinless so God manifest Himself in the flesh, and was that sinless man that gave His human body as a sacrifice for our sins, and reconciled mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, God and man in harmony.

Since the man Christ Jesus is the Savior, and the personal human body of God, He exalted the man Christ Jesus to be at His right hand, exercise the throne of power until His enemies are conquered, then His role as Savior is no longer needed, and the Son will submit to the Father, stop being at the right hand of God, stop exercising the throne of power, that God may be all in all, so God is ruling through the man Christ Jesus for the sake of the saints.

Let us make man in our image is God the Father, and the man Christ Jesus.

God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Which all the works were finished from the foundation of the world, and Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, and the firstborn of all creatures, although He was not born until 4000 years later, so the man Christ Jesus is considered in the beginning before He is born.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, which is God manifest in the flesh to be done in the future.

In the Old Testament Adam made in the image of God, and in the New Testament Adam was made in the image of Christ.

The image of God is the image of Christ.

God had the plan to come in the future in flesh, and created Adam in that image, which is an innocent nature in flesh.

So the let us make man in our image is God the Father and the man Christ Jesus, Son, for the man Christ Jesus is part of that image that God made Adam in so He has to be included in the Let us make man in our image.

There is no trinity, but Jesus is God, which in the Old Testament God said that He will be the Savior in the future by putting on flesh.

have you met people who say mute when they mean moot? i know lots of them. usually i never say anything.
i assumed you were also one of them; sorry.
they're not 'my own rules' -- it's pretty well universally known that the italicized words in not just the kjv but a few other translations are additions that are not present in the manuscripts being translated from. there's nothing 'mute' about it; i was able to say it, and i quoted both with and without the additions.

what you said is moot: what i put was a couple of verses establishing that Christ assumes an attribute that YHWH says is His alone. you replied with something about an appellation of God. your reply had nothing whatsoever to do with the post of mine you quoted: a moot argument, inconsequential, unrelated, having no bearing. moot.

but not mute; you indeed speak.

"When he had come into the region of Caes·a·reʹa Phi·lipʹpi, Jesus asked his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?”14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·liʹjah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”15 He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?”16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon, son of Joʹnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did"

This is a powerful verse. Because Jesus gives himself the title "son of man." He is not claiming to be God, but a begotten being born of a human. Secondly, Peter and the apostles never thought, said, or alluded to Jesus being YHVH. What they thought is written in scripture for everyone to see. Some people thought that Jesus was Elijah or John for example, but why didn't any of the early jews think that Jesus was God incarnate? In the above scripture, Jesus moves on to ask his apostles intimately, "who do you say I am" Peter answers... the son of God. Then Jesus moves on to further the point "my father in heaven (Jesus again claiming to be the son) revealed it.

Question... concerning foreshadowing/types and anti-types, how do you reconcile Abraham's attempted sacrifice of Isaac (The father sacrificing his son for God) and it's importance to all those having faith, to YHVH sacrificing Jesus for mankind (the father sacrificing the son) for all those having faith? If YHVH and Jesus are the same person then they are not really father and son, or how does one think that this obvious parallel works without Jesus actually being the Son of God?
Most of the trinitarian dogma is based on a lack of understand the scriptures plus a strong desire to be "right" You can't disprove their type of indoctrination, ego is a driving force, so I really wouldn't try to. However, if a trinitarian had a sincere question about his belief then I'd simply use the scriptures because there are literally, two to three times as many scriptures that point to Christ being inferior to his father.

You are correct on every point and why I'm non-trinitarian. Most of them don't know that it's a pagan doctrine devised by the Catholic's and Constantine. There are triads of gods in several religions. Christianity just followed suit.

the Spirit speaking through the sons of Korah says, "your throne o God is forever"
it is "the King" who is addressed ((v.1)) and He is here called God
- of Him it is also said, God has anointed Him
the psalm is clearly Messianic; it is Christ who is the King, Who is seated on the throne, His own throne,
and the very throne is the throne of God

before He appeared in the flesh and revealed Himself to us, this was a mystery, a seeming paradox -
but now that we have heard and believed it is evident:
Christ = God
both the Root and the Offspring of David ((Rev. 22:16))

This is interesting Bones:

Isa 43:1 But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!

John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

Yahweh declared Himself our Husband, our King, and our Redeemer many times in the Old Testament.

Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus Christ Everlasting Father, God Almighty, Counselor, Comforter, Ruler of Peace,, and these are all titles of our King; so my question is simple. Do you people read the Word at all? If you do, have you believed It. The Word is Jesus.....

As for fully understanding God, I will reserve my explanation until He demonstrates to all this mystery, and that is only if He chooses to, for what God chooses is always good; I believe, amen.

• "your Maker"
  • by Him all things were created ((Colossians 1:16, John 1:3))
• "your Husband"
  • marriage: as Christ and His church ((Ephesians 5:31-32, Revelation 19:6-9, 21:2-5, 21:9-10))
  • we, betrothed to one husband ((2 Corinthians 11:2, Romans 7:1-6))
• as prophesied ((Hosea 2:19-20))

I confess that in read the Old Testament so very many times along with the
Newthat when I did read these truths they seemed so natural to me it did not strike me as important and urgent as it truly is. Yahweh is our redeemer. If they would but look just a little they will find Yahweh is not a name perse, rather His being "I will be what I will be."
God bless yo ufor this direct exposure for all to learn just Who Jesus, Yeshua, is.

Hi Posthuman

I haven’t been on too often but I like to check in and see how your discussion is going. I see it has slowed down, but I would like to add some information if I may.

Quote from Post 755

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows.
(Psalm 45:6-7)

This is repeated in Hebrews 1 where it refers to the Son as God
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

There are three things of interest here. --- One is that He is called Son as well as God. --- The second is that He was chosen from among His companions. --- And the third is that He was there in the beginning with God, to lay the foundation of the earth.

This pretty well identifies that it is referring to the Word in John 1:1.
--- Many believe that Jesus, Christ, and the Word, were all one being, but the Scripture identifies them separately. I had written this before, but I will write it again and expand on it later:

The Word was the only begotten Son of God. This is borne out in the Interlinear Greek English New Testament, in the terms for God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (Theov), and the Word was God (Theos). He was in the beginning with God (Theov). All things were made through Him,(the Word,Theos).

--- I asked a Greek scholar about two names for God, and he said, ‘Theos’ is subject to ‘Theov.’ Therefore Theos is the Son of Theov.

And this is born out in the following verse,
John 1:18 No one has seen God (Theov) at any time. The only begotten God (Theos) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
--- (Some versions say, ‘only begotten Son,’ with a footnote saying ‘God.'

The Amplified Bible says,1:18 No one has seen God [His essence, His divine nature] at any time; the [One and] only begotten God [that is, the unique Son] who is in the intimate presence of the Father, He has explained Him.
The NIV says, 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

--- Notice two things, --- The Word was ‘begotten of God’ and was called both God (Theos), and ‘the begotten Son of God,’ so it is a ‘unique’ position that no one else can ever attain unto.
--- The second thing to notice is that God (Theov) is identified as ‘Father,’ so not only the Father of the Word, who is in His bosom, or in ‘the closest relationship with Him.’ --- But the Eternal Father.

Enough for now, Blessings