Rapture

You are adding to the Word by saying Abel was an apostle by using word association which you call "hermeneutics. There are NO Old testament apostles.

It doesn't matter what resource I look at NOT ONE says anything about what you claim. Able or Moses were not apostles. To be an apostle one had to either be hand picked by Jesus, or have witnessed the crucifixion, resurrection, or ascension. It is bad hermeneutics to apply New Testament Apostles to Abel simply on the basis of the word "sent". By doing that kind of thing, one can interpret the bible any way they like and make it say whatever they like.

Does that mean angels are apostles too!

angel...
angelos

a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
angel

It's beyond me how anyone can believe Abel was an apostle sent to bring the gospel to Cain. Sorry, that one takes the cake.

The gathering of the church = John 14:1-3, I Thes.4:13-17, 1 Cor.15:51-52, 2 Thes.2:1.

The conclusion that the church will be gathered prior to God's wrath which is initiated at the opening of the first seal, comes from cross-referencing and comparing scripture.

One of the major misunderstandings, is that people have interpreted the gathering of the church as being the same event of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. As an example, I Thes.4:13-17 represents the gathering of the church, while Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21, represent the Lord's return to end the age. Rev.19:6-8 puts the bride/church as already being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and following the Lord out of heaven to the earth.

Regardless of what you have to say makes no difference and that because by making your claim of the gathering taking place at the second coming, you put the living church through the entire wrath of God and that won't happen.

After 69 of the seven year periods were fulfilled, the Messiah was cut off, Christ crucified. At that time God paused that last seven years and began to build His church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will fulfill His promise and return for the church, taking us back to the Father's house, as His bride. Following that, the ruler, that antichrist, will establish his seven year covenant, which will initiate that last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24).

Already the focus is shifting back to Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, which means that the gathering of the church is very, very, near. For those who think that God is going to protect the church during the time of His wrath, they need to do an indepth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, because they will affect the entire earth. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, over half the earths population will be killed and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments. Just as Jesus said, "except those days were shortened, no one would be left alive."

The next major Biblical event to take place will be the catching away of the church. By the time that the Lord returns, by my guestimation, there will be approximately only 10% of the earths population left.

Oh please, you just don't get it noose. You quoted Matthew 26:40 which is the trial of Jesus Christ who was accused of blasphemy. At vs40 the high priest is asking Jesus to swear two things. (1) are You the Christ/Messian and (2) are You the Son of God. At Luke 24:16 Jesus says, "Yes, I am."

Here at Matthew Jesus says, "hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting etc. Jesus sought to demonstrate to the Jews the FALSE image they have of the Messiah that He is a political figure. In other words when Jesus says, "hereafter" it suggest an end and a beginning. It was the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of a new period, the time between His first and SECOND COMING. After His resurrection Jesus returns to the glory He already had before the world began, John 17:3

In short, I do agree with you that there is no "rapture" but disagree with you that there is no second coming. Now, I ask you specifically who is teaching you this stuff and what kind of Church do you attend?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

So ahwatukee, you gave these verses, John 14:1-3, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thess 4:13-17 and 2 Thes 2:1. Not one of those verses proves the rapture of the church. Sure, they may use the word "gathering" but how do you know it has to be a gathering for the rapture? In other words, the gathering could mean (which I believe it is) the second coming of the Lord.

Now, how do you deal with Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offerenc once to bear the sins of many, shall APPEAR A SECOND TIME FOR SALVATION/DELIVERANCE WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN, TO THOSE WHO EAGERLY AWAIT HIM." From this verse I don't see any mention of a rapture and then Jesus Christ appearing a second time? How do you explain that?

As well, the time frame of Revelation 20 is during the tribulation and notice what vs5 says, "The rest of the dead did not come to life UNTIL or AFTER the thousand years were completed. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION." What your doing is picking out verses and applying the rapture teaching to those verses to prove that there will be a rapture of the church before the great tribulation and the end of the age/world. In logic this is what is known as circular reasoning which means you are beginning ar argument with an ASSUMPTION you are trying to prove.

For example, the rapture is true, so you should not doubt the verses I provided that prove it is true. In short, there is only one second coming, not a rapture and then another second coming of the Lord.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

That's right, I said no "rapture," I did not say no second coming. Are you familar with Hebrews 9:28? "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME FOR SALVATION/DELIVERANCE WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN, TO THOSE WHO EARGERLY AWAIT HIM."

So, can you please explain to me is this speaking about a rapture or a one and only second coming? Also look at 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." I believe the "wrath" here is in reference to rejecting Jesus Christ. I base that on the fact that the context has to do with rejecting Jesus Christ for salvation. Just read 1Thess chapter 2 and notice what vs16 says, "hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they MIGHT BE SAVED; with the result that they always fill up the measure OF THEIR SINS. But WRATH has come upon them to the utmost."

You can also cross reference this with Ephesians 2:3, and especially the favorite verse of pre-tribbers 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Colossians 3:5,6 and another good verse is Romans 5:9. Context, context ahwatukee. I also have a question to ask you. At Matthew 24:40 or even vs41 the question was rasied by someone about what this verse means? "Then there shall be two men in the field, one will be taken, and one will be left." Do you use these verses as support for the so-called rapture?

IN GOD THE SON,
pluto

Yes they are referring to the rapture. They are taken from a housetop,bed,workplace,a field. So we see normal everyday life. Show me normal life after the trib.

Wasn't I right when I said, "I know...you're going to give me the typical pre-trib line that, "they are tribulation saints."

Show me the scriptures that tell you that the gathering takes place after the tribulation.

[quote I believe him. You guys had to fabricate ANOTHER RAPTURE and another return of Christ TO COUNTER YOUR CONTRADICTION about Jesus saying it occurs AFTER the tribulation, and then had to change the meaning of the word elect which does indicate CHRISTIANS! NOT JEWS! Pre-trib is so full of contradictions and fabrications to cover them that it impresses me that people fall for it. There are over 20 contradictions in the pre-trib view that had to be covered up by another fabrication which often led to another contradiction! But hey, what do Christians care about contradictions? They're going to believe whatever they want even when there's a mountain of evidence against them.

I wonder what the other views outside a pretrib rapture do with so may verses declaring
Watch
Wait
Be ready
Longing for his coming
????????????
AND
The business in heaven ,the Lord and his bride
?????????????
So much to just throw away.

Yes they are referring to the rapture. They are taken from a housetop,bed,workplace,a field. So we see normal everyday life. Show me normal life after the trib.

I wonder what the other views outside a pretrib rapture do with so may verses declaring
Watch
Wait
Be ready
Longing for his coming
????????????
AND
The business in heaven ,the Lord and his bride
?????????????
So much to just throw away.

Ok, let me put what you said another way. How do you know that the verses that say, "Watch, Wait, Be ready, Long for His coming are tied specifically to the rapture?

What is truly happening here, is a more indepth study and understanding of scripture. And because it hasn't been revealed to you, you reject it. There are two separate events 1). The gathering of the church where Christ calls up the entire church to meet Him in the air. Christ does not return to the earth at this time, but only removes His church according to His promise. And 2). The second coming, is represented by Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7 and 19:11-21. This is when Christ physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age. As long as you continue to make these two events as being the same event, your understanding of end-time events will always be in error.

What I mean is that, throughout chapters 1 thru 3 the word "church" is used 19 times and you will not see the word "Saints" used interchangeably within those same chapters. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, beginning at 5:8, you will only see the word "Saints" as the word "Church" is never used again.

Most Christians agree that the "Parousia" occurs at the end of tribulation. Pre-tribbers like to say the "harpazo" occurs 7 years before! The Harpazo and the Parousia are both mentioned in the very same passage! With a good grammar lesson, you should be able to understand that this all takes place at the same time (not 7 years apart) and is the same event.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


I'm very impressed the lengths pre-tribbers go through to support pre-trib. It doesn't nothing for your argument whether the word saints IS or IS NOT used interchangeable with chapters 1-3. The word saint IS NOT used in those chapters and that is meaningless because the word CHURCH is and the church is full of saints! Every time the church is mentioned in Revelation 1-3 it's in reference to a specific church in a specific area.... to the seven churches in Asia. The 'church' is represented by it's followers in the rest of the book.

After I quoted the following, I even told you your reply would be, "they are tribulation saints!" Which was your precise reply! Well of course they are tribulation saints, the book is all about the tribulation! That doesn't mean there was a rapture before the tribulation. Neither does it imply the saints mentioned in the book were saved DURING the tribulation! It's fabricated heresy to say the church isn't mentioned! There's more than a dozen references to Christians!

I already showed you that saints...MENTIONED 11 TIMES after chapter 6! Servants, ...mentioned 7 times after chapter 6! Fellow servants, brethren,...Mentioned 4 times! Martyrs, a great multitude, overcame by the blood of the lamb, have the testimony of Jesus Christ, the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus, souls of those who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. THESE ARE ALL CHRISTIANS AND CHRISTIANS REPRESENT THE CHURCH!

You may not be aware of it, but you have contradicted the forum's all knowing expert on the "rapture of the church".
But, AMEN brother . Preach on!

Most Christians agree that the "Parousia" occurs at the end of tribulation. Pre-tribbers like to say the "harpazo" occurs 7 years before! The Harpazo and the Parousia are both mentioned in the very same passage! With a good grammar lesson, you should be able to understand that this all takes place at the same time (not 7 years apart) and is the same event.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I'm very impressed the lengths pre-tribbers go through to support pre-trib.[/quote}

And I'm surprised that you and others would believe that the Lord would put His church through His wrath. If you did a study on the seals, trumpets and bowls, as well as the references regarding "the day of the Lord" you would see who the time of God's wrath is going to be directed at, the proud, the haughty, arrogant and the rest of the Christ rejecting world. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Since the whole world will be affected by this coming wrath, then you would understand that the church must be removed. By the way, you still haven't addressed the fact that the bride/church is seen in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and is that army that will be following Christ out of heaven. Address that instead of jumping to other scriptures.

And because of that, you have no discernment if you think that God used only the word "church" in the first three chapters and then abruptly dropped it from the following narrative as being a coincidence. No discernment! If the word "church" was used interchangeably throughout Revelation I wouldn't be pointing this out to you. It is because of the abrupt disuse of the word that demonstrates that the church is no longer on the earth from that point forward.

The letters were not only to the churches in Asia of that time, but are to every believer in every generation until Christ comes. The letters are for every believer to examine themselves against the rebukes and to repent if the shoe fits.

According Rev.1:19, the book of Revelation is divided up into 3 parts, as John was told to write the following:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to Rev.1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the churches, which represents the church period

What will take place later = What will take place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period

When the voice that sounds like a trumpet says, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, it is synonymous with the "what must take place later."

In Rev.4:1-2 John is prophetically representing the event of the church being called up. That voice that sounds "like a trumpet" is the same trumpet call found in 1 Thes.4:16 in Paul's detailed description of the church being caught up.

Currently, we are still in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write. As soon as the church is completed, the Lord will descend and will gather the church, dead and living and following that will be the "what must take place later."

You people who don't understand this are spiritually blind! And you resist those who are revealing the truth regarding this issue.

Don't you think that if the great tribulation saints were the church, that they would be addressed as such, even just once? There are plenty of places where the church could be written in place of the word "Saints." You guy's are missing the deeper things of God.

But again, no Ekklesia! As I stated, the very fact that the elder is even asking John who these are in white robes and where they come from, demonstrates that this group is not the church. Why would the elder be asking John who people are if he had already previously wrote letters to them?

You and others need to let go of your pride and be teachable. With the Lord as my witness, the living church will be gathered from the earth before the first seal is opened, which is what initiates the wrath of God.

I'm still waiting for an explanation regarding the bride/church being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb, as well as following the Lord out of heaven to the earth to end the age. Those who will have been resurrected and changed and caught up, are those "called, chosen and faithful followers" of Rev.17:14

What is truly happening here, is a more indepth study and understanding of scripture. And because it hasn't been revealed to you, you reject it. There are two separate events 1). The gathering of the church where Christ calls up the entire church to meet Him in the air. Christ does not return to the earth at this time, but only removes His church according to His promise. And 2). The second coming, is represented by Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7 and 19:11-21. This is when Christ physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age. As long as you continue to make these two events as being the same event, your understanding of end-time events will always be in error.

There are not contradictions, but only your refusal to believe due to your lack of understanding. You've adopted these false teachings and you cling to them.

Regarding the first resurrection, there are phases or stages:

* Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection - 1 Cor.15:20

* The church at the Lord's appearing - John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-17, 1 Cor.15:51-53

* The Male child/144,000 - Rev.12:6, 14

* The two witnesses - Rev.11:11

* The great tribulation saints - Rev.20:4-6

All of the above belong to the first resurrection and take place a different times.

Please provide any so-called contradiction and I will explain it to you.

As it is, your false belief puts the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the wrath of God. And because of this you are not truly believing that the Lord experienced God's wrath on our behalf, that we have been credited with righteousness and that we have been reconciled to God. If you did, you would not have the church being gathered after God's wrath. And you still have not explained the fact that Rev.19:6-8 reveals that the bride, the church of Christ, as being at the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven and the church following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses wearing her fine linen. Simple deduction says that, since the church is following the Lord out of heaven when He returns to the earth, then we would have to already be in heaven.

The problem and the reason why you reject the truth regarding this matter, is because you don't have enough study and you have been influenced by these false teachings.

The book of Revelation is a detailed account of "the day of the Lord" the time of God's wrath. Regarding this, please point out anywhere after the end of chapter 3 where the church is mentioned. What I mean is that, throughout chapters 1 thru 3 the word "church" is used 19 times and you will not see the word "Saints" used interchangeably within those same chapters. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, beginning at 5:8, you will only see the word "Saints" as the word "Church" is never used again. That is not a coincidence, but a prophetic clue. The reason why the word "church" is missing from the narrative, is because Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. These are the deeper things of God's word and you have not understood them, but have rejected them.

What is truly happening here, is a more indepth study and understanding of scripture. And because it hasn't been revealed to you, you reject it. There are two separate events 1). The gathering of the church where Christ calls up the entire church to meet Him in the air. Christ does not return to the earth at this time, but only removes His church according to His promise. And 2). The second coming, is represented by Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7 and 19:11-21. This is when Christ physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age. As long as you continue to make these two events as being the same event, your understanding of end-time events will always be in error.

There are not contradictions, but only your refusal to believe due to your lack of understanding. You've adopted these false teachings and you cling to them.

Regarding the first resurrection, there are phases or stages:

* Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection - 1 Cor.15:20

* The church at the Lord's appearing - John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-17, 1 Cor.15:51-53

* The Male child/144,000 - Rev.12:6, 14

* The two witnesses - Rev.11:11

* The great tribulation saints - Rev.20:4-6

All of the above belong to the first resurrection and take place a different times.

Please provide any so-called contradiction and I will explain it to you.

As it is, your false belief puts the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the wrath of God. And because of this you are not truly believing that the Lord experienced God's wrath on our behalf, that we have been credited with righteousness and that we have been reconciled to God. If you did, you would not have the church being gathered after God's wrath. And you still have not explained the fact that Rev.19:6-8 reveals that the bride, the church of Christ, as being at the wedding of the Lamb which takes place in heaven and the church following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses wearing her fine linen. Simple deduction says that, since the church is following the Lord out of heaven when He returns to the earth, then we would have to already be in heaven.

The problem and the reason why you reject the truth regarding this matter, is because you don't have enough study and you have been influenced by these false teachings.

The book of Revelation is a detailed account of "the day of the Lord" the time of God's wrath. Regarding this, please point out anywhere after the end of chapter 3 where the church is mentioned. What I mean is that, throughout chapters 1 thru 3 the word "church" is used 19 times and you will not see the word "Saints" used interchangeably within those same chapters. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, beginning at 5:8, you will only see the word "Saints" as the word "Church" is never used again. That is not a coincidence, but a prophetic clue. The reason why the word "church" is missing from the narrative, is because Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. These are the deeper things of God's word and you have not understood them, but have rejected them.