OSAS= House Built on Sand

I know.......believers who don't believe, what a joke.

What I noticed years ago was that the church had lost the actual meaning of various phrases in Christianity and were now only understanding them in generalized, vague concepts. This is a good example. Instead of 'believer' meaning someone who believes and trusts in Christ it means anyone God has accepted in salvation, which in their doctrine can mean the unbelieving local serial murderer.

Here's what the article I posted says:

"...it (Free Grace) asserts that justification (that is, being declared righteous before God on account of Christ) does not necessarily result in sanctification (that is, a progressively more righteous life)."

"He sums up his deep conviction that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone when he claims, "Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation."[8] "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints#Free_Grace_doctrine

So, walla, there you have it, a 'believer' (a saved person) who doesn't believe.

That's what makes Free Grace doctrine so easy to defeat. The Bible plainly says the person who is not living for Christ in a changed/changing life is not born again. It's that simple.

Good grief, read the article I linked to.

Charles Stanley. Every heard of him? He's been among the biggest names in Protestant Evangelical Christianity for years. Which is the scary part. He's a well liked very respected teacher in the church.

The problem with your theory is, it's not biblical.


Jesus is in Heaven.

Jesus has finished His ministry on earth, in which His Spirit now dwells in us, for us to do the works that He did.

• he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. John 14:12


It's up to believers to preach the Gospel to the world of unbelievers.

It's up to believers to teach the truth to the Church.

It's up to believers to cast out devils.

It's up to believers to heal the sick.

It's up to believer's to go after a brother or sister who is lost, to turn them back to Christ.

• “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost is no longer justified [declared right with God], and has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or remain lost.


Matthew's version shows us what Jesus taught about dealing with such a person, and in context shows us the principle of forgiveness and unforgiveness.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?
• And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.

Jesus defines the steps to take, to go after a person who has sinned against you to get them to repent:

1. “Moreover [likewise] if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
2. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
3. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’
4. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

James says it this way -


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth
• and someone turns him back
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
• will save a soul from death

Found = Reconciled to God: Justified - Declared to be right with God.


Lost = Seperated from God. Unjust. Unrighteous. A Sinner in need of repentance.


For one of His sheep to become lost, it must first belong to the Shepherd.




JPT

I have.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Is someone who believes a believer? Yes!


Is someone who believes for a while, then no longer believes still a believer? No.


If a person believes, then 3 years later they no longer believe, then they are no longer a believer.




JPT

Unanswered question posed to @Ralph- (Post #957) and @justpassinthrough (Post #1,289):

I have asked both you and Ralph the following question before and neither you nor Ralph will answer. Hopefully, you will answer now:

The believer does not turn into an unbeliever. The believer is still born again. He or she is no longer walking in light of who he or she is in Christ Jesus, but that does not mean he or she is not born again.

What happens to the "new man" within the born again one under your scenario?

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The answer is so simple. The Holy Spirit departs the person and they go right back to being the old man they were before. And if you think it's impossible that the Holy Spirit can enter into and then leave created things, particularly his temple, read Ezekiel 10.

Romans 8 explains to us that we are new creations because the Holy Spirit enters into our body (we are the temple where God dwells). I don't know why you people think the Holy Spirit leaving a person is the rock that is impossible for God to lift.

If only Calvinistic 'P' once saved always saved believers understood this (which are fewer and fewer in number these days).

Even Calvin himself said you, ultimately, can not know for sure if you are of the elect until the resurrection. He did say you could have a modicum of assurance but that, ultimately, you can not know until the very end. And the church has touted that as the doctrine of security and assurance.

Meanwhile, Biblical security says you are absolutely secure in Christ as long as you are presently believing. You stop being secure in Christ if you walk away from the security of Christ.

No, it's not that. What the Bible says is they were weak believers in whom the word was not firmly grounded. And that is exactly the case in regard to the Spirit filled person I know who quit believing.

(I suppose faulty understanding could aid in the word not being firmly grounded.)

Oh.........sorry.

I'll save the 'good grief!' for another time.

Lot's of churches teach the grace of God. The question is, do they teach it accurately? If it's teaching that the grace of God even extends to the ex-believer who no longer cares about or wants the forgiveness of God then, no, they are not teaching the grace of God accurately.

Nope ... next time you want to 'good grief' me you can't cuz ya already did!!!

And I charge interest on my 'good griefing' so you'll never be able to 'good grief' me again - hahahahahaha

Here let me help since more adjectives are required.........I try to resist true believer because a believer should be regarded only as someone born from above, not someone one who has a certain set of religious values with a Jesus as part of the package.

A believer (born from above) is always a believer (born from above) this person has eternal life.

No one has the ability to unbirth themselves physically or spiritually.

I have no comment on your brother-in-law he proves nothing.

When we accept Christ we are born again of God (once), are passed from death unto life (once), and become a new creature, or creation, with all things new (once). We would have to become unborn to lose our salvation and born a third time to get saved again, which is not mentioned in the Bible. We also become a son of God with a new nature, Christ's nature, and Christ cannot deny himself.

John 1:13; 3:3-7; I Peter 1:23

John 5:24; 11:25

II Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15

Ephesians 2:10; 4:24

John 1:12-13; Romans 8:14-17; Galatians 3:26; I John 3:1-2

You have to get this idea that there's a new man running around in you like when a new born baby comes home from the hospital. All the new man is is the Spirit of God in union with the spirit of a person. Read Romans 8.


By virtue of his presence, the Holy Spirit makes the old man different. Like Nicodemus, perhaps you're not aware of the concept described in our own scriptures:

6“ 6The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person" - 1 Samuel 10:6

It's a 'new' person in that it is a 'different' person. Like when everybody comments how uncle Willie is a 'new' man now that he quit drinking and gambling. Understand?

U...,

If you are suggesting we cannot give up/loose our repented status......that is not scriptural.

The Bible teaches us that we must..."maintain until the end".....warns against backsliding ...warns us to keep our garments spotless and chasens us to demonstrate love and devotion thru service.