Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
The funny thing about this is, I actually believe believers are held to a higher standard than the 10 Commandments. I used to write about this here in past posts.

But I believe disobedience for us is not loving one another. And we are called to do more than not steal, we are called to give freely. To do more than not murder, but to give our lives for one another, just as Christ gave His.

And these are not burdensome to me because He loves me first.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
on the topic of "SET APART"

Genesis 2:1-3, “Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their array. And in the seventh day the Mighty One completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And the Mighty One blessed the seventh day and set it apart, because on it He rested from all His work which the Mighty One in creating had made.”

set it apart” is word #H6942 - qadash: to be set apart or consecrated, Original Word: קָדַשׁ, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: qadash, Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-dash'), Short Definition: consecrate

Isaiah 58:11-14, “YHWH will guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and make fat; (strengthen), your bones. You will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail. And those of you will rebuild the old waste places; you will raise up the foundations of many generations; and you will be called the Repairer of the Breach, the Restorer of Streets to Dwell In; If you turn away your foot from breaking the Sabbath: from doing your pleasure; your own business, your own pleasure, on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight; the holy day of YHWH honorable, and will honor Him by not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor engaging in idle conversation: Then you will find your joy in YHWH; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Yaaqob your father, for the mouth of YHWH has spoken it.”

set apart, its not about "holier than thou" or anything like that its set apart or its not, if I go play basketball, its not sin but its also not set apart.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
The funny thing about this is, I actually believe believers are held to a higher standard than the 10 Commandments. I used to write about this here in past posts.

But I believe disobedience for us is not loving one another. And we are called to do more than not steal, we are called to give freely. To do more than not murder, but to give our lives for one another, just as Christ gave His.

And these are not burdensome to me because He loves me first.
I believe that is the "Spirit of the Law"

Yahshua taught this;

Mat 7:12-14, "Therefore, all things you want men to do to you, do the same to them, for this is the (intent of the) Law and the Prophets. Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

Lev 19:
17, "‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Reprove your neighbor, for certain, and bear no sin because of him."

Matthew 5:27-32, “You heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone looking at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart...”

Notice “in his heart”

now this does not mean one has committed literal adultery, but has in their heart and cultivating this in ones heart will bring forth sin and death:

James 1:12-18, “Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is enticed, “I am enticed by Yah,” for Yah is not enticed by evil matters, and He entices no one. But each one is enticed when he is drawn away by his own desires and trapped. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death. Do not go astray, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of light, with whom there is no change, nor shadow of turning. Having purposed it, He brought us forth by the Word of truth, for us to be a kind of first-fruits of His creatures.”

Thus I believe when Yahshua/Jesus says: "looking at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And if your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for your entire body to be thrown into GĕHinnom. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you. For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for your entire body to be thrown into GĕHinnom"

The explanation of how this is in practice is explained by James here "when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin. And sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death"

Then to put in my own words; when I man looks upon a woman with great lust, if cultivated it will bring forth acting on that lust, when that lust is acted upon it births sin, when one lives a live of sin it brings forth the second death.

1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”

John/Yahanan 14:26, “But the Comforter; the Holy Spirit which YHWH will send in My Name will teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I (Yahshua/Jesus) have said to you.”

John/Yahanan 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting.”
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
BUt everyday it is impossible to set apart.'
The common accusation is "you only worship God1 day a week" nonsense.

We have to work, do the dishes, laundry, mow the lawn, etc. that is not doing the will of Yah, I havenever met anyone that sets asides every minute of every day for His will. While taking a shower is not a sin it is not His will...

The Sabbath is a 24 hour period where nothing should get in the way not even for a second. A 100% focus on Him.

Im not being rude I want you to understand what the Sabbath is to me.

If you do this every day that means you never work, never cook food, never mow the lawn, never watch a sports event, etc. Not that those are sin but they are not Yah;s will.

Do you behave like this EVERY day? making every day set apart to Him? (again not accusing you of being sinful,lm youseem nice, but im saying set apart)
Great discussion. I used to think these were not of God also, but the Lord showed me (and Scripture agrees) we do all things unto the Lord.

Whatever word or deed it is all unto Him. And you’re right I don’t hold one day over any other. Because He has made me holy. So all I do is holy and separated unto Him.

In fact, He gave us His Holy Spirit! Part of our inheritance is partaking in His holiness.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Great discussion. I used to think these were not of God also, but the Lord showed me (and Scripture agrees) we do all things unto the Lord.

Whatever word or deed it is all unto Him. And you’re right I don’t hold one day over any other. Because He has made me holy. So all I do is holy and separated unto Him.

In fact, He gave us His Holy Spirit! Part of our inheritance is partaking in His holiness.
I have a differnt view on this honestly. It started when a friend told me once "Im watching the football game to the Lord" and uoted "do all things unto the Lord" Well when he said this I didnt know the world well enough to refute him or really even question it. Now I know better. I dont see "do all things unto the Lord" as whatever I choose to do its to Yah, I see it as I should do all things the HE wants me to. IDK if im elplaingin it right but to not do my stuff and say its for Him, but rather to use my time to do His will. (and no im not perfect, I dont do His will every second)
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
I have a differnt view on this honestly. It started when a friend told me once "Im watching the football game to the Lord" and uoted "do all things unto the Lord" Well when he said this I didnt know the world well enough to refute him or really even question it. Now I know better. I dont see "do all things unto the Lord" as whatever I choose to do its to Yah, I see it as I should do all things the HE wants me to. IDK if im elplaingin it right but to not do my stuff and say its for Him, but rather to use my time to do His will. (and no im not perfect, I dont do His will every second)
This is off topic, but Jesus always did the Will of God.

He fished, cooked food for His friends, went to the bathroom, he hung out with friends, he ate and drank with sinners, attended parties, he rode a young colt, he walked on water... His entire life was unto the Father.

Even things we probably think God doesn’t think are important, but I hold the view WE are important to God.

He likes us and likes spending time with us. He willingly joined Himself to us, lol.

The idea God is only in a few things is a gnostic view. It separates God into only church activities and then people wonder why God isn’t at our work places, hobbies, schools, government, etc.

We can discuss this privately though I don’t want to derail this thread.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,486
13,422
113
58
I never said anyone wa perfect, I said the oppisite.

I sain NONE are perfect.... but this is not excuse to ignore all COmmands or some...

I not arguing tis if you think some or all of the Law is abolished, your choice.

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

I will say this so you say the Sabbath is changed or whatever...

the first "times" and the "time" in "time and times and the dividing of time" are different aramaic words in the original...

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change appointed times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

appointed times” is word #H2166 – zeman, Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) 1) a set time, time, season
I don't ignore Colossians 2:16,17 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

*We are under the NEW COVENANT (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:13), not the old covenant. Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

So you believe the Sabbath law is binding on Christians under the new covenant because of your misunderstanding of Matthew 5:18? Using that logic, the entire Law of Moses would also be binding on Christians under the new covenant, yet that is not the case. *See Hebrews 8:13. The fulfillment of the Law is found in Christ Himself and His finished work of redemption.

If the law of Moses bears the same relationship to the Church today, as it did to Israel under the old covenant in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. If the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Jesus and remains as a binding legal system for the Church today then it's not just partially binding. Rather, it would be a totally compelling system. Jesus clearly said that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus merely fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or else He fulfilled none of it.

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Being under grace, believers are not bound by the Law (Romans 6:14), but we have the Holy Spirit actually living in our hearts. The Spirit gives us the ability to "love one another" (John 13:34), and we know that "the one who loves another has fulfilled the law" (Romans 13:8). Christians do not work at fulfilling the Mosaic Law, which Christ fulfilled on our behalf (Matthew 5:17); rather, we fulfill the "law of Christ" by the Spirit's power (Galatians 6:2).

Certain Sabbatarians, especially SDA's rise up and say, "If there is no law, we may kill, steal, commit adultery, etc.." Yet they miss the point. Hebrews 8:13 - In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. It is another case of the old "Articles of Confederation" of the original thirteen States being superseded by the Constitution of the United States; it is a case of the "law of Christ'' taking the place of the "law of Moses."

Just like SDA's, you have a radical view in regards to law keeping and are having a difficult time making the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant. I noticed that you quoted Daniel 7:25 to help support your radical view. SDA's turn to Daniel 7 to help support their radical view that near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. You can read about it below:

http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
="VCO, post: 3688111, member: 178202"]No, the Levitical Priesthood, was NEVER intended to be a method to atonement of sins
WOW VCO,

There is only two reasons for a Priesthood. Atonement of sins and administration of God's Laws. Are you really trying to preach that the Old Covenant Priesthood wasn't created for the atonement of sins, "Till the Seed should come"?

Lev. 2:
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

The very reason for a Priesthood to begin with, is for the "Atonement of sins". How can you come on this forum and deny this Biblical truth?

The Old Testament Saints are those WHO BELIEVED GOD WOULD SEND A MESSIAH.

The New Testament Saints are those WHO BELIEVE GOD DID SEND A MESSIAH.
True, those Old Testament Saints, who were under the Old Covenant (Sacrificial "works of the Law")for atonement of sins, knew what the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" foreshadowed.

True, those New Testament Saints, who were under the New Covenant (Faith in Christ) for atonement of sins, knew what the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" foreshadowed.

But that doesn't negate the truth about the Levite Priests and how they corrupted God's Priesthood to the point that people lost sight of the reason for the Priesthood. So as prophesied God "changed it"

It's in your Bible VCO.

Heb. 8:
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (Where is Levi?)

IT IS THE SAME FAITH, THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM.
Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood. Levi had not yet been born. It wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years later. Abraham was justified "Apart from the Law" of justification added all those years later.

The Levitical Priesthood was to lead them to the Messiah, and did for the true believers like Zechariahs. But the Levite Priests and Pharisees had corrupted the Law. So finding fault with them He created a New Covenant.

How is this not true given the scriptures?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
="VCO, post: 3688102, member: 178202"]Now that was the longest post EVERY. Do you know how to tell if you have struck a NERVE. They get very long winded trying to impress you with Many Words. You did not impress me, in fact, I skipped over most of the LONG WINDED POST.
I'm not trying to impress you VCO. The only thing that strikes a nerve with me are folks who preach things about the God of the Bible which are just not true. Your praise is the farthest thing from my mind. I do naturally expect some common courtesy regarding my reply to posts though. But I am no longer surprised by this kind of reply from many on this forum.

I responded to your long post, not ignoring any of it, because I think it is just rude to ignore people. I went into detail using not all, but many scriptures so as to show how I come to a conclusion. I feel it is a common courtesy to give you a detailed reason why I disagree with you, rather than just saying you are in error with no Biblical reason why. This way we can weed out those doctrines of men from the instructions of God, an important goal in my opinion.

Skipping over my reply to your posts may be rude, but I am just a man. But it appears by your posts that you are skipping over many of God's Word's as well. Yes, it is true He is long winded, and He writes many Words in the hope that you will read them and understand.

Will you pull out your Apocrypha and ridicule Him as well?

I can assure you He didn't write His Long Winded OP to impress you.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
113
58
HBG. Pa. USA
This really curious to me, I mean to me this is so clearly taking about a rest that we can enter in now.

For example let’s start with Hebrews 4:1

1Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.

Right in this verse the writer says you should already be inside the promise of rest. And if you haven’t reached it yet be in fear.

I mean that’s pretty cut and dry to me.
The Rest to which Israel was to enter was the Gospel. This is testified via verses 1 and 2. If they and we enter into this rest; the Gospel GOD speaks of the Sabbath again; verses 3 and 4.

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith ( Christ; the Word in our hearts and mouths; that is the Word of Faith in which we preach) in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest (the Gospel), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For HE spake in a certain place (Mt Sinai in the giving of the Commandments; because that is the instance to which GOD spoke of the Seventh Day) of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again (HE speaks), If they shall enter into my rest (the Gospel). Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein (the Gospel, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in (the Gospel) because of unbelief (rebellious hardhearted stiff necked disobedience): Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore (back to verses 3 and 4) a rest (a Sabbath Keeping) to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest (the Gospel), he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from HIS ( on the Seventh Day because in this place again GOD speaks).

As GOD did from HIS is a DIRECT COMPARISON. We cease from work like GOD did. GOD did not cease from trying to work out HIS own righteousness outside of Christ. GOD rested the Seventh Day from all HIS work which HE had made. Physical labor not Spiritual!
(Heb 4:1-10 KJV)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
The funny thing about this is, I actually believe believers are held to a higher standard than the 10 Commandments. I used to write about this here in past posts.

But I believe disobedience for us is not loving one another. And we are called to do more than not steal, we are called to give freely. To do more than not murder, but to give our lives for one another, just as Christ gave His.

And these are not burdensome to me because He loves me first.

SO DO I !


Matthew 22:36-40 (HCSB)
36 “Teacher, which command in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and most important command.
39 The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.
40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands.”

Romans 13:8-10 (HCSB)
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments: Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not covet; and whatever other commandment—all are summed up by this: Love your neighbor as yourself.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
I'm not trying to impress you VCO. The only thing that strikes a nerve with me are folks who preach things about the God of the Bible which are just not true. Your praise is the farthest thing from my mind. I do naturally expect some common courtesy regarding my reply to posts though. But I am no longer surprised by this kind of reply from many on this forum.

I responded to your long post, not ignoring any of it, because I think it is just rude to ignore people. I went into detail using not all, but many scriptures so as to show how I come to a conclusion. I feel it is a common courtesy to give you a detailed reason why I disagree with you, rather than just saying you are in error with no Biblical reason why. This way we can weed out those doctrines of men from the instructions of God, an important goal in my opinion.

Skipping over my reply to your posts may be rude, but I am just a man. But it appears by your posts that you are skipping over many of God's Word's as well. Yes, it is true He is long winded, and He writes many Words in the hope that you will read them and understand.

Will you pull out your Apocrypha and ridicule Him as well?

I can assure you He didn't write His Long Winded OP to impress you.
The truth of the matter, is EXTRA LONG POSTS, especially with CONTINUED at the bottom, are JUST PLAIN RUDE in this type of discussion.

I do not POST to convince you of anything, you are on your own.

I post to reassure those that just read, that our position is the TRUTH.


Titus 3:5-11 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.


1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,


Obedience is part of LOVE, and never has been part of Salvation.


Exodus 31:12-17 (HCSB)
12 The LORD said to Moses:
13 Tell the Israelites: You must observe My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, so that you will know that I am Yahweh who sets you apart.
14 Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death. If anyone does work on it, that person must be cut off from his people.
15 Work may be done for six days, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
16 The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign forever between Me and the Israelites, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.”

Keeping the SABBATH has always been part of the First Covenant.

In my opinion, GOD CHOSE THESE VERSES to be the MANDATORY - Substitute for the Sabbath Law, in Heb. 7:12.

Hebrews 10:23-25 (HCSB)
23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,
25 not staying away from our ⌊worship⌋ meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.


Therefore the SABBATH LAW was substituted for these verses in the Second Covenant.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
This is off topic, but Jesus always did the Will of God.

He fished, cooked food for His friends, went to the bathroom, he hung out with friends, he ate and drank with sinners, attended parties, he rode a young colt, he walked on water... His entire life was unto the Father.

Even things we probably think God doesn’t think are important, but I hold the view WE are important to God.

He likes us and likes spending time with us. He willingly joined Himself to us, lol.

The idea God is only in a few things is a gnostic view. It separates God into only church activities and then people wonder why God isn’t at our work places, hobbies, schools, government, etc.

We can discuss this privately though I don’t want to derail this thread.
I agree wit hthis view, but He did all that within the boundrines of the ministry. He never for example, stopped preaching the word and went to a music concert. In our own lines it is a fine lime IMO, or takes self honestly, one can do thiose things and be in ministry or one can just make the excuse they are while not actually be doing the will of Yah. Im not the one to decide, nor am I perfect, but I know me, and while I feel Im always ready to do His will if the opportunity arises, Im not doing His will evry second of every day, some time I just sit and watch sports events, I do not consider that to be doing His will.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
SO DO I !


Matthew 22:36-40 (HCSB)
36 “Teacher, which command in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and most important command.
39 The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.
40 All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commands.”

Romans 13:8-10 (HCSB)
8 Do not owe anyone anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments: Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not covet; and whatever other commandment—all are summed up by this: Love your neighbor as yourself.
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Love, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law.
Here’s an interesting thought. The old commandment was to love one another as we love ourselves. But the new one is to love each other as *He* loved us.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
WOW VCO,

There is only two reasons for a Priesthood. Atonement of sins and administration of God's Laws. Are you really trying to preach that the Old Covenant Priesthood wasn't created for the atonement of sins, "Till the Seed should come"?

Lev. 2:
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

The very reason for a Priesthood to begin with, is for the "Atonement of sins". How can you come on this forum and deny this Biblical truth?



True, those Old Testament Saints, who were under the Old Covenant (Sacrificial "works of the Law")for atonement of sins, knew what the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" foreshadowed.

True, those New Testament Saints, who were under the New Covenant (Faith in Christ) for atonement of sins, knew what the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" foreshadowed.

But that doesn't negate the truth about the Levite Priests and how they corrupted God's Priesthood to the point that people lost sight of the reason for the Priesthood. So as prophesied God "changed it"

It's in your Bible VCO.

Heb. 8:
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (Where is Levi?)



Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood. Levi had not yet been born. It wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years later. Abraham was justified "Apart from the Law" of justification added all those years later.

The Levitical Priesthood was to lead them to the Messiah, and did for the true believers like Zechariahs. But the Levite Priests and Pharisees had corrupted the Law. So finding fault with them He created a New Covenant.

How is this not true given the scriptures?

It's intention was NOT this is how we can resolve sin, IT'S INTENTION WAS TO DRIVE THEM TO A POINT THAT WE NEED A BETTER SACRIFICE, ONE THAT COULD RESOLVE SIGN PERMANENTLY. DESPERATION OVER HOW MANY LAMBS THEY MUST SACRIFICE, WOULD DRIVE THEM TO SEEK FOR MESSIAH TO COME.

The blood of their sheep, only COVERED SIN.

THE BLOOD OF MESSIAH, CLEANS IT AS WHITE AS SNOW.
 
Last edited:

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
I don't ignore Colossians 2:16,17 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.


You quoted it yourself "what is to come" as in still future. THe 7 Feast days and the 7th day Sabbath are 100% about Yahshua and His works.

SO your telling me days originated from the Creator are "of the world""

Colossians 2:20, “If, then, you died with Messiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to it’s ordinances.”

and days 100% about the Messiah are not actually about Messiah?

Colossians 2:8, “See to it that no one makes a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary matters of the world, and not according to Messiah.”

Here:
1. Passover/First-fruits – Yahshua's Sacrifice(Passover), burial and resurrection (First Fruits – presenting Himself to YHWH)
2. Feast of Unleavened Bread – Removal of sin by Yahshua's perfect work as the Passover Sacrifice
3. Feast of Weeks – The blessing Holy Spirit of YHWH, coming into our lives stronger than ever
4. Feast of Trumpets – Yahshua's return and gathering of the Saints
5. Day of Atonement – Yahshua leads the army of YHWH to destroy evil rulers of this world and satan is chained for 1,000 years
6. Feast of Tabernacles – Yahshua dwells on earth for 1,000 years teaching truth and righteousness
7. The Last Great Day – satan is loosed and swiftly destroyed, the Kingdom of YHWH reigns forever
7th day Sabbath - millennial reign of Messiah

You know what does fall unde this catagory:

Colossians 2:8, “See to it that no one makes a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary matters of the world, and not according to Messiah.”

Christmas and Easter... because they are both based in the tradition of man, the MOADIM are 100% based in the Messiah and about Him. but it is not surprising when people speak bad of you, or "makes prey" as Col 2:8 says, for doing what is after Messiah, but do the pagan worldy ones and eveyone loves you...

*We are under the NEW COVENANT (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:13), not the old covenant. Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.


I could show you this 100 times you will reject it ever time: Sabbath WAS ALWAYS for Hebrew and Gentiles alike:

Isaiah 56:1-7, “Thus said יהוה, “Guard right-ruling, and do righteousness, for near is My deliverance to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who becomes strong in it, guarding the Sabbath lest he profane it, and guarding his hand from doing any evil. And let not the son of the gentile who has joined himself to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths, and have chosen what pleases Me, and are holding onto My covenant: to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an everlasting name that is not cut off. Also the sons of the gentile who join themselves to יהוה, to serve Him, and to love the Name of יהוה, to be His servants, all who guard the Sabbath, and not profane it, and are holding onto My covenant, them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is YHWH our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

So you believe the Sabbath law is binding on Christians under the new covenant because of your misunderstanding of Matthew 5:18? Using that logic, the entire Law of Moses would also be binding on Christians under the new covenant, yet that is not the case. *See Hebrews 8:13. The fulfillment of the Law is found in Christ Himself and His finished work of redemption.

If the law of Moses bears the same relationship to the Church today, as it did to Israel under the old covenant in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. If the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Jesus and remains as a binding legal system for the Church today then it's not just partially binding. Rather, it would be a totally compelling system. Jesus clearly said that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. We cannot say that Jesus merely fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or else He fulfilled none of it.
I believe this:

Hebrews 7:11-12, “Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed (#G3331), there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

Notice it is the same word in English “change” but in the Greek they are 2 different words?

“For the priesthood being changed (#G3331), there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

If we only look at the English it is easy to misunderstand what the writer of Hebrews is seeking to tell us. Lets take a deeper look at the difference between these words:

“For the priesthood being changed (#G3331)”

“changed” is word #G3331 μετάθεσις metathesis (me-ta'-the-sis) n., transposition, i.e. transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law). [from G3346], KJV: change, removing, translation, Root(s): G3346

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
#G3331 μετάθεσις metathesis; 1) transfer: from one place to another 2) to change 2a) of things instituted or established

As in the priesthood on earth, the Levite priesthood has been abolished, and the Priesthood in the heavens, carried out by Yahshua is established. This “change” or “metathesis” is a removal of one that is replaced by another.

“there is made of necessity a change (#G3346) also of the law.”

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G3346; transposition, that is, transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law):—change, removing, translation.

“change” is word #G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi (me-ta-tiy'-thee-miy) v., 1. to transfer., 2. (literally) to transport., 3. (by implication) to exchange., 4. (reflexively) to change sides. [from G3326 and G5087], KJV: carry over, change, remove, translate, turn, Root(s): G3326, G5087

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
#G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi; 1) to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) 1a) to transfer 1b) to change 1c) to transfer one's self or suffer one's self to be transferred 1c1) to go or pass over 1c2) to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
#G3346 μετατίθημι metatithemi; From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert:—carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.


As in the Law has been transferred, not mediated by Levites but mediated by Yahshua the High Priest. This “change” or “metatithemi” is a transferral.

John/Yahanan 14:6, “Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me.”
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
continued:

Hebrews 7:24-25,"but He, because He remains forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save completely those who draw near to יהוה through Him, ever living to make intercession for them."

that is the true change, Yahshua as High Priest and the Law mediated by Him, but most people believe in the one who speaks against YHWH:

Daniel 7:25, “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change appointed times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

“appointed times” is word #H2166 – zeman, Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) a set time, time, season

Daniyl Chapter 2-7 is written in Aramaic, not Hebrew. The Israylites were taken captive to Babylon and made to forget their ways under the rule of the Bablonian king. “Zem-awn'” is an Aramaic word, and is the literal equivilent of the Hebrew word “moadim” - word #H4150 meaning: “appointed times”

"time" for , “a time and times and the dividing of time” Is a different root word from the first thus showing it conveys a different meaning.

“a time and times and the dividing of time” is word #H5732 – iddan, Strong's Concordance - iddan: time, Original Word: עִדָּן, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: iddan, Phonetic Spelling: (id-dawn'), Short Definition: time

We are saved by God's grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Being under grace, believers are not bound by the Law (Romans 6:14), but we have the Holy Spirit actually living in our hearts. The Spirit gives us the ability to "love one another" (John 13:34), and we know that "the one who loves another has fulfilled the law" (Romans 13:8). Christians do not work at fulfilling the Mosaic Law, which Christ fulfilled on our behalf (Matthew 5:17); rather, we fulfill the "law of Christ" by the Spirit's power (Galatians 6:2).
So by fulfilled you mean AbOLISHED, the Law He said would not pass:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Mat 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deut 6:5) This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Lev 19:18) On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"

Certain Sabbatarians, especially SDA's rise up and say,
pulliing the SDA is of no consequence to me, I am not SDA nor do I agree with their doctrines, yes we can find somehitng here or there to agree on, but I can do that with you too. Are you an SDA they and you both believe Jesus right? Or are you Catholic you both say SUnday is the NT day right? This is non sense each person is an indivigual, people try to sterotype so they may throw the errors of others upon your head to discredit and de-humanize you.

I will leave you with this, it is written plainly, but I assume you will not accept it due to you tradition:

Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
Here’s an interesting thought. The old commandment was to love one another as we love ourselves. But the new one is to love each other as *He* loved us.
This is a good point.

1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

The Word became flesh. He is our perfect example!

John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”

1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”

1 John 1:26, “The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he (Jesus) himself lived.”
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
It's intention was NOT this is how we can resolve sin, IT'S INTENTION WAS TO DRIVE THEM TO A POINT THAT WE NEED A BETTER SACRIFICE, ONE THAT COULD RESOLVE SIGN PERMANENTLY. DESPERATION OVER HOW MANY LAMBS THEY MUST SACRIFICE, WOULD DRIVE THEM TO SEEK FOR MESSIAH TO COME.

The blood of their sheep, only COVERED SIN.

THE BLOOD OF MESSIAH, CLEANS IT AS WHITE AS SNOW.

I forgot to mention, that the blood of sheep, only COVERED SIN, until the NEXT SIN.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
This is a good point.

1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”

The Word became flesh. He is our perfect example!

John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”

1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”

1 John 1:26, “The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he (Jesus) himself lived.”
Well said. And the most obvious point is when Jesus says in the end times, He compares the sheep and the goats.

Sheep took care of one another - which was taking care of Him.
Goats didn't - which wasn't loving Him.

This is the clearest explanation I've seen of what we are judged by spoken by Jesus Himself.