Not By Works

The truth of the matter, is EXTRA LONG POSTS, especially with CONTINUED at the bottom, are JUST PLAIN RUDE in this type of discussion.

I do not POST to convince you of anything, you are on your own.

I post to reassure those that just read, that our position is the TRUTH.


Titus 3:5-11 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.
8 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed God might be careful to devote themselves to good works. These are good and profitable for everyone.
9 But avoid foolish debates, genealogies, quarrels, and disputes about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
10 Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning,
11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sins, being self-condemned.


1 John 3:14-19 (HCSB)
14 We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
16 This is how we have come to know love: He laid down His life for us. We should also lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has this world’s goods and sees his brother in need but closes his eyes to his ⌊need⌋—how can God’s love reside in him?
18 Little children, we must not love with word or speech, but with truth and action.
19 This is how we will know we belong to the truth and will convince our conscience in His presence,


Obedience is part of LOVE, and never has been part of Salvation.


Exodus 31:12-17 (HCSB)
12 The LORD said to Moses:
13 “Tell the Israelites: You must observe My Sabbaths, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, so that you will know that I am Yahweh who sets you apart.
14 Observe the Sabbath, for it is holy to you. Whoever profanes it must be put to death. If anyone does work on it, that person must be cut off from his people.
15 Work may be done for six days, but on the seventh day there must be a Sabbath of complete rest, dedicated to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.
16 The Israelites must observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign forever between Me and the Israelites, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.”

Keeping the SABBATH has always been part of the First Covenant.

In my opinion, GOD CHOSE THESE VERSES to be the MANDATORY - Substitute for the Sabbath Law, in Heb. 7:12.

Hebrews 10:23-25 (HCSB)
23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works,
25 not staying away from our ⌊worship⌋ meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.


Therefore the SABBATH LAW was substituted for these verses in the Second Covenant.

Well said. And the most obvious point is when Jesus says in the end times, He compares the sheep and the goats.

Sheep took care of one another - which was taking care of Him.
Goats didn't - which wasn't loving Him.

This is the clearest explanation I've seen of what we are judged by spoken by Jesus Himself.

I forgot to mention, that the blood of sheep, only COVERED SIN, until the NEXT SIN.

That is one of my favorite parables, it's is so awe inspiring, thingking about being one of His sheep and yet so real because He is not sugar coating it... Im going to post it because it's so awesome!

Mat 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”


ALso here is a parrallel teaching from the "OT"


Malachi 3:14-18, “You have said, ‘It is worthless to serve Yah. And what did we gain when we guarded His Charge, and when we walked as mourners before יהוה of hosts? And now we are calling the proud blessed – not only are the doers of wrongness built up, but they also try Yah and escape. Then shall those who fear יהוה speak to one another, and יהוה listens and hears, and a book of remembrance be written before Him, of those who fear יהוה, and those who think upon His Name. And they shall be Mine,” said יהוה of hosts, “on the day that I prepare a treasured possession. And I shall spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you shall again see the difference between the righteous and the wrong, between one who serves Yah and one who does not serve Him."

It's intention was NOT this is how we can resolve sin, IT'S INTENTION WAS TO DRIVE THEM TO A POINT THAT WE NEED A BETTER SACRIFICE, ONE THAT COULD RESOLVE SIGN PERMANENTLY. DESPERATION OVER HOW MANY LAMBS THEY MUST SACRIFICE, WOULD DRIVE THEM TO SEEK FOR MESSIAH TO COME.

The blood of their sheep, only COVERED SIN.

THE BLOOD OF MESSIAH, CLEANS IT AS WHITE AS SNOW.

WE are talking about the difference between what you teach the New covenant is and what the Bible says the New covenant is.

Yes, the Levitical Priesthood foreshadow of the Sacrifice the Messiah would make. Yes, it was to lead folks to Christ.

But the Priesthood was for the atonement of sins, not the elimination of the definition of sin. That has not changed.

According to the Bible, the New Covenant did two things. It changed the way God's Law is administered, and it changed the way sins were forgiven. This is what the New Covenant was all about. A New and Better "Ministry", made on better promises. No more sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement.

WE are talking about the difference between what you teach the New covenant is and what the Bible says the New covenant is.

Yes, the Levitical Priesthood foreshadow of the Sacrifice the Messiah would make. Yes, it was to lead folks to Christ.

But the Priesthood was for the atonement of sins, not the elimination of the definition of sin. That has not changed.

According to the Bible, the New Covenant did two things. It changed the way God's Law is administered, and it changed the way sins were forgiven. This is what the New Covenant was all about. A New and Better "Ministry", made on better promises. No more sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement.

The Rest to which Israel was to enter was the Gospel. This is testified via verses 1 and 2. If they and we enter into this rest; the Gospel GOD speaks of the Sabbath again; verses 3 and 4.......
Physical labor not Spiritual! (Heb 4:1-10 KJV)

It was a NEW COVENANT. New means not the old.

How hard is that to understand.

Well said. And the most obvious point is when Jesus says in the end times, He compares the sheep and the goats.

Sheep took care of one another - which was taking care of Him.
Goats didn't - which wasn't loving Him.

This is the clearest explanation I've seen of what we are judged by spoken by Jesus Himself.

I'm only going off what the scriptures regarding the New Covenant says. It isn't hard to understand at all.

What I find interesting is

Matthew 25:37-40
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
"Lord when did we?

Then we have

Matthew 25:44-45
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

"Lord when did we?

The sheep did but in a sense seem surprised.
It was natural to them, because they knew Jesus.

The goats on the other hand did not.

They talked the the talk but did not want to walk the the walk.
They had no desire to do so.

Both profess "Lord"

What's the difference?

And sharing scriptures in a discussion about God's Word is not hatred towards one another.

All I'm saying is that what the God of the Bible says the New Covenant is and what you preach the New Covenant is are two completely different things. In fact, if one only uses scripture, you have almost zero support for your preaching of the meaning of the New Covenant in my opinion.

The scriptures you post here are beautiful. And I love them all. But they have nothing to do with your Preaching that the New Covenant was about the nullification of God's Holy Sabbath that Jesus said was made for man. In fact, there is no mention of "changing" any of God's definition of sin in ANY of the New Covenant teachings of the Bible. Only the manner in which His Law is administered, and the manner in which sins are forgiven.

Heb. 7:
12 For the priesthood being changed, there

is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; (Not Levi) of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

How do you get from a change in the Law to allow a NON-Levite into the Priesthood, to "GOD CHOSE THESE VERSES to be the MANDATORY - Substitute for the Sabbath Law, in Heb. 7:12."


Personally I don't care one way or the other, whatever God asks of me I will strive to do with His help. But what you are preaching is not Biblical. At least I can find no support for it.

Jesus loved those around Him by setting them straight on the difference between what the Mainstream Preaching of His time taught "You have heard it said of them of old time", and what the Word which became Flesh actually taught. I believe this is important stuff to know.

Since Christ is the Christian’s High Priest and He was of the tribe of Judah, not Levi (cf. Matt. 2:1, 6; Rev. 5:5), His priesthood is clearly beyond the law which was the authority for the Levitical priesthood (cf. v. 11). This is proof that the Mosaic Law had been abrogated. The Levitical system was replaced by a new Priest, offering a new sacrifice, under a New Covenant. Christ abrogated the law by fulfilling it (cf. Matt. 5:17) and providing the perfection which the law could never accomplish (cf. Matt. 5:20).


The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

7:11 In verses 11-20 we find the second argument that shows Melchizedek's priesthood to be superior to Aaron's. The argument is that there has been a change in the priesthood. The priesthood of Christ has set aside the Levitical priesthood. This would not have been necessary if the latter had achieved its purpose fully and finally.

The fact is that perfection was not attainable through the Levitical system. Sins were never put away and the worshipers never obtained rest of conscience. The priesthood that was set up under the Law of Moses was not the ultimate one.

Another kind of priesthood is now in effect. The perfect Priest has now come, and His priesthood is not reckoned according to the order of Aaron but rather after the order of Melchizedek.

7:12 The fact that the priesthood has been changed forces the conclusion that the entire legal structure on which the priesthood was based has been changed also. This is a very radical announcement! Like a tolling bell, it rings out the old order of things and rings in the new. We are no longer under the law.

7:13 That there has been a change in the law is evident from the fact that the Lord Jesus belongs to a tribe which was barred from performing priestly function by the Levitical law.

7:14 It was from the tribe of Judah that our Lord was descended. The Mosaic legislation never authorized anyone from that tribe to be a priest. Yet Jesus is a Priest. How can that be? Because the law has been changed.

7:15 The author has additional evidence that there has been a vast change in the law of the priesthood. Another kind of priest has arisen in the likeness of Melchizedek, and His qualification for the office is quite different from that of Aaron's sons.

7:16 The Levitical priests became eligible by meeting the legal requirements concerning bodily descent. They had to be born of the tribe of Levi and of the family of Judah.

But what qualifies the Lord to be a Priest like Melchizedek is His endless life. It is not a question of pedigree but of personal, inherent power. He lives forever.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

You make interesting points, but I don't think that's completely true Studyman. Because the New Covenant actually increased what "sin" is. before it was what we did now it's included what we don't do. As an example, Paul writes anything we do not of faith, for him it is sin. Sin isn't just a simple list of right/wrong, but the deepest convictions of our heart now.

Yes, I love this Scripture too because my passion is going after unity with Christ. I believe this reshapes our entire gospel. So most of my study is directed more towards what does it mean to be in Christ, walk with Him, etc. But this parable clearly indicates that He identifies with us so much - that as we do for one another, we are truly doing unto Him. So the idea we love God, but don't love His people is not Scriptural at all.

="VCO, post: 3688611, member: 178202"]


Don't you get it? Paul understood Levitical Law, better than most people. PLUS EVERY SCRIPTURE WAS INSPIRED BY THE LORD OUR GOD. HE INSPIRED PAUL TO WRITE that "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."

UNLESS you are questioning that JESUS is our High Priest, if so, I answered that at the end of this post. Paul said there MUST BE A CHANGE IN THE LAW, and Jesus NEVER reiterated the Sabbath Law, even though HE reiterated 9 of the 10 Commandments, in one form or another.

That plus, it says in Ex. 31, that the sign of the First Covenant is Sabbath keeping. To me that is clear to me, that GOD INTENDED ONLY ISRAEL to keep the Sabbath Law. I still think, GOD expects me to have a worship attitude towards Christ every day of the week, and NOT JUST ON SATURDAY.

WE are talking about the difference between what you teach the New covenant is and what the Bible says the New covenant is.

Yes, the Levitical Priesthood foreshadow of the Sacrifice the Messiah would make. Yes, it was to lead folks to Christ.

But the Priesthood was for the atonement of sins, not the elimination of the definition of sin. That has not changed.

According to the Bible, the New Covenant did two things. It changed the way God's Law is administered, and it changed the way sins were forgiven. This is what the New Covenant was all about. A New and Better "Ministry", made on better promises. No more sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement.

I am teaching the way the New Covenant was designed to be taught.

We are NOT modern Day Israelites. WE HAVE A MUCH MORE INTIMATE AND PERSONAL COVENANT, than to be just His People. WE ARE SONS AND DAUGHTERS.

You have your way of interpreting it, I HAVE HIS WAY.

AND WORKS OF THE LAW NEVER WAS A WAY FOR ATONEMENT.

Abraham BELIEVED GOD, and IT was counted to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Abraham BELIEVED GOD would send a MESSIAH.

We N.T. Saints BELIEVE GOD did send a MESSIAH.

It is the SAME FAITH, THE SAME WAY FOR ALL THE SAINTS TO BE SAVED, both O.T. and N.T. Saints.

Malachi 3:6 (TLB)
6 "For I am the Lord—I do not change.
That is why you are not already utterly destroyed [for my mercy endures forever].

This really curious to me, I mean to me this is so clearly taking about a rest that we can enter in now.

For example let’s start with Hebrews 4:1

1Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.

Right in this verse the writer says you should already be inside the promise of rest. And if you haven’t reached it yet be in fear.

I mean that’s pretty cut and dry to me.

I understand the teaching. It's just that I have found no evidence that the Word which became Flesh didn't teach the true definition of sin in the Law and Prophets. I'm not sure where you get the belief that the Old Testament didn't define the Righteousness of God.

Lev. 19:
15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

This is only a small example of How the Word, before He became Flesh, described God's Laws. As you can see, all these statements are referring to our heart, how we think, how we feel, our emotions our deepest convictions.

Duet. 6:
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

In my opinion a person can not have greater conviction that this for his God.

Who can match the Love and Trust Abraham had for this Same God to kill his own son? You can say he didn't, but He did everything but stick the knife in that boy and would have if God had not stopped him. And Noah, my goodness, can you even imagine the ridicule and insults he endured build such a big boat no where near water?

I believe the Word, before He became a man, taught exactly what you describe sin is. It's just that mankind doesn't trust Him enough to believe.

This same Word tells us exactly what His New Covenant is.

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

You said "Because the New Covenant actually increased what "sin" is." I mean no disrespect, but according to Him, the Creator of the New Covenant, there is no mention at all of our behavior. Or Any change in the definition of sin. Only that He will write His Laws on our hearts as opposed to getting them from a corrupt Priesthood. And He will forgive our sins as opposed to have a Levite sprinkle goats blood on a stone.

Can you see how I would believe what this says no matter what other men might say?