No Eternal Security = No Salvation?

Arminians believe they can lose their salvation.

Almost everything he states is false....just like denying that God gives homosexuals over to reprobate minds.....and saying that being homosexual is not sinful.....I wish I could say what I really think without getting banned!!

The following goes to the heart of the controversy.

The quinquarticular controversy is the difference between the 5 points of Calvinism and Armenianism. Both are diametrically opposed to each other. Point 4 goes to the heart of the issue being discussed. Calvinism says God touches the heart of a person causing irresistible grace. Arminians say with point 1 and 4 that a person has free will to resist the grace offered. Point 5 has Calvinism saying OSAS but Arminians say a person can lose their salvation. Both back up their beliefs with lots of scripture.

Calvinism
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism

1. Free will or Human ability
2. Unconditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. Resistible grace
5. Falling from Grace

I'm truly befuddled by this post. I asked a question that I several times said I WASN'T SURE of the answer!

So who am I judging? I think it's possible that those who don't believe they are eternally secure, haven't put their full trust in Jesus, and partially trust in their FOLLOWING Jesus for Salvation, and aren't saved because of that.

I also think it's possible these people ARE saved but haven't been given the revelation yet that Jesus will NEVER leave them and are eternally secure. I just don't know which is true, and wanted to hear others thoughts on this question. But I certainly haven't judged ANYONE.

The issue is the difference between Calvinism and Armenianism. Here is a brief explanation.

Five Points of Calvinism and Armenianism
Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

The five points of Arminianism (from Jacobus Arminius 1559-1609) are in contrast to the five points of Calvinism (from from John (Jehan) Calvin 1509-1564). The Arminian five points with the Calvinist points listed beneath it are listed below.

1.
Human Free Will--This states that though man is fallen, he is not incapacitated by the sinful nature and can freely choose God. His will is not restricted and enslaved by his sinful nature.
Total Depravity - - this states a man is incapable to choose God.

2.
Conditional Election--God chose people for salvation based on His foreknowledge where God looks into the future to see who would respond to the gospel message.
Unconditional Election - - God reached in and chose forcing the person to respond to the gospel message.

3.
Universal Atonement--The position that Jesus bore the sin of everyone who ever lived.
Limited Atonement - - Jesus only bore the sin for only those who choose him.

4.
Resistable Grace--The teaching that the grace of God can be resisted and finally beaten so as to reject salvation in Christ.
Irresistible Grace - - The teaching that when God reaches in and touches the person his grace is irresistible.

5.
Fall from Grace--The Teaching that a person can fall from grace and lose his salvation.
Perseverance of the Saints - - Once saved always saved OSAS.

Armenian
1. Free will
2. ConditionalElection
3. Universal Atonement
4. Resistable Grace
5. Fall from Grace

Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

1. Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
2. Unconditional Election
3. Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
4. Irresistible Grace
5. Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

In the OP you asked, “So my question is does thinking you can lose your Salvation equate to NOT being saved?” That question is clearly an invitation to judge whether non OSAS believers are saved. You have invited others to judge and therefore have involved yourself in the judging process by asking the question.

I thought my comments pretty much responded to your points, so I didn’t take time to respond point by point.





I agree with the first part at least. It would be redundant to use the term passive with actively engaged. I don’t understand the point in the rest of your statement.


Ok, great.

Yeah. That's not what judging is. Judging would be if I said" those who don't believe in eternal security are lost, wouldn't you agree?"

For the 3rd time now, I DON'T KNOW the answer. That's why I wanted to hear others opinion on it.

I hear what you are saying but it really doesn't scratch where I'm itchin!

It doesn't answer the question.

If they believe they must allow the Spirit to lead them and abstain from sins, and do charity, love in action, works of God, to be saved, then they would believe they would be saved without believing OSAS if a person does not do right, for their belief will cause them to act accordingly.

So it does not make sense, for if someone of the occult believes it is truth, and they can evolve through nature, then they will believe accordingly, and act accordingly.

If someone believes Mormon they will act accordingly, Catholic they will act accordingly.

So believe OSAS they will act accordingly, and do not believe OSAS unless a person allows the Spirit to lead them and abstain from sins, and do works of love, they will act accordingly.

So it does not make sense to say that thinking that you can lose your salvation equates to not being saved, for they will act accordingly to what they believe, and that is to abstain from sins, and do works of love, which they say you have responsibility to ensure you act like Christ, and if you do not comply then you will be cut off, which is what the Bible says.

Which the real question is this, do people that believe OSAS allow the Spirit to lead them, and are they always led of the Spirit, and can they believe OSAS but not allow the Spirit to lead them.

For the Bible says we are only saved by being led of the Spirit, for if led by the Spirit you are a son of God, if you are not led of the Spirit you are none of Christ's, a Spirit led life is not under the law, which means the law cannot touch them for persecution.

The Bible does not say if you confess Jesus you are not under the law, but if you are led of the Spirit, for not everybody that claims Jesus as Lord is saved.

So are people that believe OSAS always led of the Spirit, nothing wavering, because that is the only way they are saved.

But let us consider this.

They say they cannot abstain from sin when the Bible plainly states that if they hate sin, and do not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, so why do they say that.

They say that sin does not affect their relationship with God, but the Bible says the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, which this is the seal that seals the saints, and the way they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Which is why not all will dwell with Jesus who claim Him as Lord, for they were workers of iniquity.

Also the Bible states that love works no ill towards their neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law, which love does not think an evil thought, does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth which is to abstain from sins by the Spirit, is not arrogant, not selfish, not unkind, does not go by their wants, but only by their needs, and helps the poor and needy.

So it is strange that OSAS people say they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, and many believe in the prosperity Gospel that God blesses them with money, and material things for their wants, but Paul said if they teach that withdraw yourselves from them, having food and clothing be content, and they erred from the faith.

Those people that believe that a person can lose salvation if they do not allow the Spirit to lead them and abstain from sins, and do works of love to be in the faith that does save are not giving glory to themselves, but giving glory to God, and doing the works of God not works of the flesh.

They are not saying they are sinless, but giving glory to God, and saying do right by the Spirit.

But nevertheless if a person says that if they do not believe OSAS, and they have to abstain from sins, and do works of love, or they are not saved, they must consider this.

Consider these scriptures.

Many people claim Jesus as Lord and Savior, and mean it in the right way, His death, burial, and resurrection, and having faith.

If OSAS is true, then consider this concerning the people that do not believe in OSAS is true if they do not abstain from sins, and do works of the Spirit, which we know some people lack.

If OSAS is true then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, for it would not make sense to work in the lives of those He did not choose for salvation.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No one says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, which is to claim Jesus above all dominion, principality, and power, and that He is God, which many people that do not go along with OSAS believe Jesus is Lord in the right way, which they can only do by the Holy Ghost.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Many that do not go along with OSAS believe Jesus is the Christ, Savior, and the Son of the living God, which could only be revealed to them by the Father.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Many people that do not go along with OSAS confesses the Son as the Savior, and believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

Many people that do not go along with OSAS believe Jesus is Lord and Savior, and He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

So God has to be working in their life, and if OSAS is true God would only work in the lives of the people He chose, so why is God working in their lives if He did not choose them in the beginning, so they must be saved too even though they do not go along with OSAS.

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Also concerning the end time which is now, and we know it is now for the new age movement is here that shall occur in the latter times, which will lead the world to rebel against God, and to establish it as standard religion in the world.

The Bible says concerning the end time that none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand, but many who do not go along with OSAS understand the end time, which means they are not part of the wicked, but the wise.

So some people can say you are not saved if you do not believe OSAS, but why is God working in their life, which they claim Jesus as Lord in the right perspective, claim Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God in the right perspective, and understand the end time, which they can only say those things, and only believe those things if God is working in their life to understand the truth.

So why is God working in their life if they were not chosen, for if OSAS is true God would only work in the lives of those He chose.

Continued,

Continued,

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

They say all we need to do is have faith and we are saved, and that we can never fall but will always have eternal security.

Then how did these people depart from the faith.

This is speaking of the new age movement, and their interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, and no personal God, but the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher in the evolutionary process and love, but not the final teacher, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher in the evolutionary process.

Many people shall depart from the faith and give heed to that interpretation of the Bible, and the time will come that they will not endure sound doctrine, but will only want to hear the Bible according to the new age movement.

How did they depart from the faith if it is always eternal security, and I do not want to hear any excuses, or explanations, like they were not saved in the first place, for the Bible says they departed from the faith, which means they must of had been in the faith in the truth to have departed from it.

So if all we need is faith, and then we cannot fall and it is eternal security, how did they depart from that faith.

Of course many who believe in OSAS are secure in what they believe about Jesus so they believe they are alright, so it is the same with people that do not go along with OSAS if the person lacks being Christlike, that they are secure in what they believe about Jesus and to act like Him so they believe they are alright.

But both will claim Jesus as Lord which they can only do by the Spirit, so if OSAS is true then they would both be saved anyway, for nobody can say Jesus is Lord unless God is working in their lives.

So not going along with OSAS would not hinder them from being saved if OSAS is true.

That is if it is true.

The Bible says many are called, but few are chosen, and you know what that means then, that God does the calling and choosing on earth.

Take it from there and stop playing around and act Christlike for your salvation does depend on that.

Splagna, post: 3706353, member: 170740"]I thought my comments pretty much responded to your points, so I didn’t take time to respond point by point.

well I don't read my minds so I did not know that.


I agree with the first part at least. It would be redundant to use the term passive with actively engaged. I don’t understand the point in the rest of your statement.

uh...perhaps look up the 2 words because together they are not redundant. they are actually opposing in us

Ok, great.

ok great nobody has said what you try to imply they said?

well ok great then

I think the new age doctorine that a video was posted about OSAS is wrong bevause theyve twisted and manipulated the truth but i believe that once i accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior..His death was enough..im not perfect.. I succum to temptation..i need Gods grace mercy and forgiveness but through Christ i am made perfect..God doesnt love me any less in my imperfection and because i Love Him i strive to be obeduant and do what He desires..one day ill be in His presence and im secure in that fact. God made promises to me in His Word and im holding Him to it!

A choice is made conciously..not SUBcontiously..

Grace doesnt not teach people how to live..Grace is a gift FROM God that can cover us in our human sin natured imperfectness..God teaches us how o live

Are you asking if we an 'accidentally" be saved?

Holy moly matt..take a BREATH already..lol

Logical?

The early elders created the Apostles Creed to define what a Christian must believe. They stated that outside of the Creed all other issues were to agree to disagree. There were many disagreements back then and also today. This is in the realm of agree to disagree. The Quinquarticular Controversy means the answer to your question falls into the agree to disagree. There will be scripture seemingly on both sides of the issue. Don't you just love it.

Those folks are most likely lost but in some cases like with the foolish Galatians they did fall into error and where persuaded unto another gospel which is not another (works salvation)

Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian......sounds like one resisting grace to me ....just saying

lol,no I'm not asking can we accidentally be saved because no one can come to JESUS unless GOD draws them.
I'm just saying that a person that Is saved will desire to live GODly.

1 John 3:1-4
King John Version(KJV)


1.) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2.)Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3.)And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4.)Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
+++
Titus 2:9-12
King James Version(KJV)


9.) [Exhort] servants to be obedient unto their own masters, [and] to please [them] well in all [things]; not answering again;

10.) Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11.)For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12.) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;