Paul's revelations and writings affirm previous Scriptures. Mormon writings do not, for example: The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461), and, There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
For those why deny the Deity of Jesus Christ.
- Thread starter bluto
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Excuse me chucky you said this, "And because He existed before He was born as a man, does not make Him God." Since I'm the one that started this thread can you please explain the following question I ask here?
"Since some of you deny the Deity of Jesus Christ which also means He did not preexist His incarnation as a man I have a question? Why is Jesus Christ who is the one and only begotten Son of God identified or presented as the Agent of creation at John 1:-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14 by the Apostles and by His own Father? Please read the verses before you answer."
Secondly, you made this statement. "My Lord "and" my God. He was a man that was born of the Spirit." Can you please explain to all of us here on what basis was Jesus Christ born of the Spirit since He was sinless and only sinners have to be born again?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"Since some of you deny the Deity of Jesus Christ which also means He did not preexist His incarnation as a man I have a question? Why is Jesus Christ who is the one and only begotten Son of God identified or presented as the Agent of creation at John 1:-3, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:10 and at Revelation 3:14 by the Apostles and by His own Father? Please read the verses before you answer."
Secondly, you made this statement. "My Lord "and" my God. He was a man that was born of the Spirit." Can you please explain to all of us here on what basis was Jesus Christ born of the Spirit since He was sinless and only sinners have to be born again?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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J
i almost agree with you. but many people add new teachings to the bible based on Paul that can not be found anywhere else. no women teachers, grace with no works, tongues are all ideas based on Paul and no where else in the bible
Paul is a legit teacher.Mormons not so much. this is based on the actions of the two. Paul after his vision, lived a good life, the example of Jesus. the Mormans patriarchs were into some dark evil stuff.
Paul is a legit teacher.Mormons not so much. this is based on the actions of the two. Paul after his vision, lived a good life, the example of Jesus. the Mormans patriarchs were into some dark evil stuff.
Yes ma’am, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and what most of the world would define as a Christian. I have felt very impressed lately that I need to listen and understand others points of view. That is why I joined Christian Chat. I love talking of Jesus Christ and learning of Him. I love the Bible. I also love what the Book of Mormon adds to the Bible. I love prayer and singing praises to God. I love feeling the spirit of God teach me and others in conversations of understanding.
I have felt very impressed lately that I need to listen and understand others points of view. That is why I joined Christian Chat. I love talking of Jesus Christ and learning of Him. I love the Bible. I also love what the Book of Mormon adds to the Bible. I love prayer and singing praises to God. I love feeling the spirit of God teach me and others in conversations of understanding.
keep your focus on Christ above all things and sound doctrine will follow from it
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I am all for people coming here to learn about Christ and His Gospel. Are you willing to renounce Mormonism? Like Atheists who come here and say things like "I'm an atheist! Ask me anything" we DO NOT care to learn more about Mormonism. Mature Christians are already fully aware of the heresies of that cult, and baby Christians do not need to become confused by those satanic heresies.
It appears to me that you want to "educate" us on why Mormons should be considered Christians. That is why I ask if you are willing to renounce that cult.[/QUOTE
Ok. I will keep your feelings in mind. I am actually here on Christian chat because I have a few questions about different Christian beliefs. I would love to even hearing from you about your story of how you became Christian and what are your core beliefs and even how they differ from other sects of Christianity.
It appears to me that you want to "educate" us on why Mormons should be considered Christians. That is why I ask if you are willing to renounce that cult.[/QUOTE
Ok.
I will keep your feelings in mind. I am actually here on Christian chat because I have a few questions about different Christian beliefs. I would love to even hearing from you about your story of how you became Christian and what are your core beliefs and even how they differ from other sects of Christianity.
Hi lovingothers, and welcome to the Christian chat forums. If it's ok with you I would rather address you as Lo as opposed to typing your name out. I'm also glad your willing to listen and understand other points of view which leads me to ask you a question or two. Let me also tell you I am not LDS but I know about what your Church teaches.
According to Joseph Smith's own testimony he was 15 years old when he had his first vision. Note? I'm not going to type all that he said but just the main points. He said he went out to pray early in the spring of 1820. He saw two personages whose brightness and glory defy all description standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, pointing to the other, "This is my beloved Son, hear Him." (Btw, this is a quote from the Bible at Mark 9:7).
Smith then said there appeared to him the Father and the Son in bodily form. Smith said "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know "which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; they teach for doctrines the commandments of man, having the form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
I would like you to address two points about all of this. First of all, the Bible is clear that God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bone. In fact, Jesus Christ Himself stated at John 5:37, And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His vlice at any time, NOR SEEN HIS FORM." And at John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father." Then there is also 1 Timothy 6:16 which I suggest you can read for yourself.
Here's the second issue I would like you to consider and address. When Joseph Smith ask the question of which sect he should join or which one was right is really a "foolish" question? In other words, salvation is not based on which church one joins. Salvation is based on having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ when He comes into your heart. Ephesians 2:8,9, "For by grace you have (past tense) been saved through faith; NOT by works that any man should boast. Water baptism, doing good works, following ordinances does not save you. I'll stop here and wait for you to address these two issues I raised. PS: Like I said, please address the two issues I raised and do not go into addressing James 2:24. I'll be glad to answer that later and in much more detail. Thanks!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
According to Joseph Smith's own testimony he was 15 years old when he had his first vision. Note? I'm not going to type all that he said but just the main points. He said he went out to pray early in the spring of 1820. He saw two personages whose brightness and glory defy all description standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said, pointing to the other, "This is my beloved Son, hear Him." (Btw, this is a quote from the Bible at Mark 9:7).
Smith then said there appeared to him the Father and the Son in bodily form. Smith said "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know "which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; they teach for doctrines the commandments of man, having the form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
I would like you to address two points about all of this. First of all, the Bible is clear that God the Father does not have a body of flesh and bone. In fact, Jesus Christ Himself stated at John 5:37, And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His vlice at any time, NOR SEEN HIS FORM." And at John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father." Then there is also 1 Timothy 6:16 which I suggest you can read for yourself.
Here's the second issue I would like you to consider and address. When Joseph Smith ask the question of which sect he should join or which one was right is really a "foolish" question? In other words, salvation is not based on which church one joins. Salvation is based on having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ when He comes into your heart. Ephesians 2:8,9, "For by grace you have (past tense) been saved through faith; NOT by works that any man should boast. Water baptism, doing good works, following ordinances does not save you. I'll stop here and wait for you to address these two issues I raised.
PS: Like I said, please address the two issues I raised and do not go into addressing James 2:24. I'll be glad to answer that later and in much more detail. Thanks!IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Bluto,
I got on Christian chat to understand other Christian belief better so I am trying to stay focused on that more than focusing on my beliefs. That is why I haven’t answered you yet.
Honestly though, I don’t really understand why so many Christians believe God does not have a body. I mean, sure there are a few scriptures like the ones you quoted that suggest contradictions, but the bigger overall picture suggests otherwise in my opinion. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ are not alone in these beliefs either. Historically, there are many who have come to that conclusion with the Bible and by the help of the spirit before Joseph Smith’s vision. I was just reading about Joan of Arc and I would safely put her in that category. In fact, such belief was one of the reasons she was killed.
If I only had the Bible (I am so thankful for more witnesses), I feel I would still retain this belief. There are scriptures that support this idea directly in my eyes, but we all tend to be subjective: Exodus 33:11,Hebrews 1:1-3, Philippians 2:5-6 and others. But even more are the personification references throughout the old and New Testament. Speaking face to face, with a voice, God’s hand, and others.
Last week my children and I were sitting watching the animated “God is with us” series on Amazon...excellent videos, but when the martyrdom of Stephen is shown and Christ is standing on the right hand of a...a bright light that doesn’t even have a right hand...my kids and I talked about how that doesn’t make any sense to us.
Please don’t be offended. I know many people feel very strongly about the subject, but that is my true observation. And I would even ask why do others believe that?
To the second topic, I would simple answer that the most foolish question is the one not asked. I think it is wonderful that Joseph had a question and knelt in prayer. I need to do that more often. In fact, maybe that is a good reason to shorten my stay in Christian chat. I should be spending more time with God to learn of God than talking with men about God. True that! I have need to repent. Thanks for leading me to that conclusion.
I got on Christian chat to understand other Christian belief better so I am trying to stay focused on that more than focusing on my beliefs. That is why I haven’t answered you yet.
Honestly though, I don’t really understand why so many Christians believe God does not have a body. I mean, sure there are a few scriptures like the ones you quoted that suggest contradictions, but the bigger overall picture suggests otherwise in my opinion. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ are not alone in these beliefs either. Historically, there are many who have come to that conclusion with the Bible and by the help of the spirit before Joseph Smith’s vision. I was just reading about Joan of Arc and I would safely put her in that category. In fact, such belief was one of the reasons she was killed.
If I only had the Bible (I am so thankful for more witnesses), I feel I would still retain this belief. There are scriptures that support this idea directly in my eyes, but we all tend to be subjective: Exodus 33:11,Hebrews 1:1-3, Philippians 2:5-6 and others. But even more are the personification references throughout the old and New Testament. Speaking face to face, with a voice, God’s hand, and others.
Last week my children and I were sitting watching the animated “God is with us” series on Amazon...excellent videos, but when the martyrdom of Stephen is shown and Christ is standing on the right hand of a...a bright light that doesn’t even have a right hand...my kids and I talked about how that doesn’t make any sense to us.
Please don’t be offended. I know many people feel very strongly about the subject, but that is my true observation. And I would even ask why do others believe that?
To the second topic, I would simple answer that the most foolish question is the one not asked. I think it is wonderful that Joseph had a question and knelt in prayer. I need to do that more often. In fact, maybe that is a good reason to shorten my stay in Christian chat. I should be spending more time with God to learn of God than talking with men about God. True that! I have need to repent. Thanks for leading me to that conclusion.
Ok fine Lo, your here to understand other Christian beliefs and I'm here to show you where your beliefs are not orthodox Christian beliefs. For instance, you made this statement, "Honestly though, I don’t really understand why so many Christians believe God does not have a body." You making this statement shows me that none of these issues are a big deal to you.
Well I got a news flash for you, it is a big deal because that is what Jesus stated and what the Bible teaches. Please, give me any verse in the entire Bible that says God the Father has a body of flesh and bone? Afterall, you just stated, "the bigger overall picture suggests otherwise in my opinion." You see, anyone can state a position on any subject, what one has to do is "PROVE" his position.
Also, to bring up Joan of Arc is nothing more than a rabbit trail. It reminds me of saying to my parents, "Well my best friend billy's parents are letting him go to the party, why can't I?" And of course the answer from the parents is, "I don't care what other parents are doing etc." Now, I see you mentioned some verses in which you think proves your point but you lack understanding?
Do you know the definition of a "metaphor?" It's a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not LITTERALLY APPLICABLE." For instance, you mentioned Exodus 33:11, Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face." The verse means that God familiarly spoke to Moses as a man speaks to a friend. Besides, if you would bothered to read a few verses down, (Exodus 33:19-20), specifically vs20, "But He/God said, You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" Your also taking Hebrewes 1:1-3 out of context and Philippians 2:5-6.
These verses are teaching that Jesus Christ is of the same nature as His Father and not that God the Father is visible or can be seen as your trying to say. Jesus Christ is the one and only physical manifestion of God according to John 1:18 and other verses I can provide.
Now, regarding Stephen at Acts 7 and the animated series you saw. When it says at Acts 7:55 where Jesus is standing at the right hand of God His Father it means Jesus is standing in the place of honor, power, and authority. God the Father does not literally have a right hand. Just like the verse in the OT that says "God will cover with His feathers" does not mean God has feathers, remember, think metaphor.
And lastly, after reading your last paragraph? Why are you now "running away" when you said you wanted to learn about other beliefs? I personally don't believe you came here by accident and I highly encourage you to start reading the gospel of John prayerfully. Maybe you'll get a "REAL" "burning in the bosom?"
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Well I got a news flash for you, it is a big deal because that is what Jesus stated and what the Bible teaches. Please, give me any verse in the entire Bible that says God the Father has a body of flesh and bone? Afterall, you just stated, "the bigger overall picture suggests otherwise in my opinion." You see, anyone can state a position on any subject, what one has to do is "PROVE" his position.
Also, to bring up Joan of Arc is nothing more than a rabbit trail. It reminds me of saying to my parents, "Well my best friend billy's parents are letting him go to the party, why can't I?" And of course the answer from the parents is, "I don't care what other parents are doing etc." Now, I see you mentioned some verses in which you think proves your point but you lack understanding?
Do you know the definition of a "metaphor?" It's a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not LITTERALLY APPLICABLE." For instance, you mentioned Exodus 33:11, Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face." The verse means that God familiarly spoke to Moses as a man speaks to a friend. Besides, if you would bothered to read a few verses down, (Exodus 33:19-20), specifically vs20, "But He/God said, You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" Your also taking Hebrewes 1:1-3 out of context and Philippians 2:5-6.
These verses are teaching that Jesus Christ is of the same nature as His Father and not that God the Father is visible or can be seen as your trying to say. Jesus Christ is the one and only physical manifestion of God according to John 1:18 and other verses I can provide.
Now, regarding Stephen at Acts 7 and the animated series you saw. When it says at Acts 7:55 where Jesus is standing at the right hand of God His Father it means Jesus is standing in the place of honor, power, and authority. God the Father does not literally have a right hand. Just like the verse in the OT that says "God will cover with His feathers" does not mean God has feathers, remember, think metaphor.
And lastly, after reading your last paragraph? Why are you now "running away" when you said you wanted to learn about other beliefs? I personally don't believe you came here by accident and I highly encourage you to start reading the gospel of John prayerfully. Maybe you'll get a "REAL" "burning in the bosom?"
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
γραφὰς (graphas) — 9 Occurrences
Matthew 22:29 N-AFP
GRK: εἰδότες τὰς γραφὰς μηδὲ τὴν
NAS: not understanding the Scriptures nor
KJV: knowing the scriptures, nor
INT: knowing the Scriptures nor the
Mark 12:24 N-AFP
GRK: εἰδότες τὰς γραφὰς μηδὲ τὴν
NAS: that you do not understand the Scriptures or
KJV: not the scriptures, neither
INT: knowing the Scriptures nor the
Luke 24:32 N-AFP
GRK: ἡμῖν τὰς γραφάς
NAS: He was explaining the Scriptures to us?
KJV: he opened to us the scriptures?
INT: to us the Scriptures
Luke 24:45 N-AFP
GRK: συνιέναι τὰς γραφάς
NAS: to understand the Scriptures,
KJV: that they might understand the scriptures,
INT: to understand the Scriptures
John 5:39 N-AFP
GRK: ἐραυνᾶτε τὰς γραφάς ὅτι ὑμεῖς
NAS: You search the Scriptures because
KJV: Search the scriptures; for in
INT: You search the Scriptures for you
Acts 17:11 N-AFP
GRK: ἀνακρίνοντες τὰς γραφὰς εἰ ἔχοι
NAS: examining the Scriptures daily
KJV: and searched the scriptures daily,
INT: examining the Scriptures if were
1 Corinthians 15:3 N-AFP
GRK: κατὰ τὰς γραφάς
NAS: according to the Scriptures,
KJV: sins according to the scriptures;
INT: according to the Scriptures
1 Corinthians 15:4 N-AFP
GRK: κατὰ τὰς γραφάς
NAS: day according to the Scriptures,
KJV: day according to the scriptures:
INT: according to the Scriptures
2 Peter 3:16 N-AFP
GRK: τὰς λοιπὰς γραφὰς πρὸς τὴν
NAS: the rest of the Scriptures, to their own
KJV: the other scriptures, unto
INT: the other Scriptures to the
Matthew 22:29 N-AFP
GRK: εἰδότες τὰς γραφὰς μηδὲ τὴν
NAS: not understanding the Scriptures nor
KJV: knowing the scriptures, nor
INT: knowing the Scriptures nor the
Mark 12:24 N-AFP
GRK: εἰδότες τὰς γραφὰς μηδὲ τὴν
NAS: that you do not understand the Scriptures or
KJV: not the scriptures, neither
INT: knowing the Scriptures nor the
Luke 24:32 N-AFP
GRK: ἡμῖν τὰς γραφάς
NAS: He was explaining the Scriptures to us?
KJV: he opened to us the scriptures?
INT: to us the Scriptures
Luke 24:45 N-AFP
GRK: συνιέναι τὰς γραφάς
NAS: to understand the Scriptures,
KJV: that they might understand the scriptures,
INT: to understand the Scriptures
John 5:39 N-AFP
GRK: ἐραυνᾶτε τὰς γραφάς ὅτι ὑμεῖς
NAS: You search the Scriptures because
KJV: Search the scriptures; for in
INT: You search the Scriptures for you
Acts 17:11 N-AFP
GRK: ἀνακρίνοντες τὰς γραφὰς εἰ ἔχοι
NAS: examining the Scriptures daily
KJV: and searched the scriptures daily,
INT: examining the Scriptures if were
1 Corinthians 15:3 N-AFP
GRK: κατὰ τὰς γραφάς
NAS: according to the Scriptures,
KJV: sins according to the scriptures;
INT: according to the Scriptures
1 Corinthians 15:4 N-AFP
GRK: κατὰ τὰς γραφάς
NAS: day according to the Scriptures,
KJV: day according to the scriptures:
INT: according to the Scriptures
2 Peter 3:16 N-AFP
GRK: τὰς λοιπὰς γραφὰς πρὸς τὴν
NAS: the rest of the Scriptures, to their own
KJV: the other scriptures, unto
INT: the other Scriptures to the
J
it also means writings according to the concordance.
Peter said it was hard to make sense out of some of Pauls teachings. which is not how the Most High speaks to His prophets. Paul even refers to his writings in terms of "I think" or "I say" very different than when prophets speak directly for the Most High.
there is nothing wrong with the teachings of Paul, like i have said many times before, but i am not going to put Paul the man on the same level as Jesus, Elijah and Moses. and if we are to do this then it opens the door for anyone to claim divine revelation and add their own scriptures to the bible.
Peter said it was hard to make sense out of some of Pauls teachings. which is not how the Most High speaks to His prophets. Paul even refers to his writings in terms of "I think" or "I say" very different than when prophets speak directly for the Most High.
there is nothing wrong with the teachings of Paul, like i have said many times before, but i am not going to put Paul the man on the same level as Jesus, Elijah and Moses. and if we are to do this then it opens the door for anyone to claim divine revelation and add their own scriptures to the bible.