What laws given in the OT should be tossed out?

First you have no idea what my view of the law is. With that in mind you should know that the Law has always been and will always be Spiritual.
To ever be truly righteous, can't be acheved by man kind with out Yeshua to forgive our sin. Even after a person turns their life over to Yeshua, and places their faith in HaShem's promises they still battle with sin in their life. Show me a man that says they never sin, and I will show a man that is living in denial.
How ever with just what I have asked of you, your answers make it clear that you do see the law as valid. If not then your anwer would have been no to them. You see just as Paul made clear to us,
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 7:12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
What of James?
Jas 4:11 Don't speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters.[fn] If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God's law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you.
My yes or no question now becomes, are the above passages the inspired word of HaShem?

No. Not all those verses are inspired.

Your James 4:11 passage is from a corrupt translation. One that subtly changes the terms and meaning of what is stated.

Lets look at the subtle difference between obedience to the law and being a doer of the law.

Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Israel tried to be obedient to the law of righteousness but they couldn't attain to it by their own obedience.

The gentiles, which didn't try to be obedient to the law of righteousness, were doers of the law of righteousness by faith in Christ.

James 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Israel made the mistake in the very beginning of ARROGANCE. Telling God that whatever He said they would do.

Well God gave them a Spiritual law that cannot be kept by carnal men.

But that doesn't stop the arrogance of men. They are still trying to work at a spiritual law that they can't fulfill.

It takes coming to Christ to finally realize this.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

If a person does a thing asked of them, or placed in a contract they are obedient to it. The same holds true for the Law of HaShem. Though your word play may hold out water in the desert, it would soon fill in the river.
As to a translation being corrupt, one would have to submit, that by your definition, all that are not in their orignal language must be. You see there is only one that ever uses the word easter in it. That would be the KJ. As easter was never intended in that passage, we should be looking at it as currupt as well.

Act 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
Ever translation renders this as Pass Over, As it is both the Hebrew and Greek. the Greek word use is,πάσχα páscha , the hebrew word used is, פֶּסַח peçach, peh'-sakh. So do we both use a corrupt translation? All passages posted by me is the NKJ I can post from the Complete Jewish if you wish. I am not going to say it is 100% true to the Hebrew text, though it is a lot closer than the KJ.
To address the last line. Be it Jew or Gentile, when a person turns their life over to HaShem the Spirit of HaShem is sent to lead them. Now you may see that a little different, I am good with that. One thing is for sure however, The Holly Spirt leads us in the path of righteousness. That path is found with in the Law. The law as seen in Rev 14:12 is the bases by which the righteous are demanded to be saints.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
If we can be seen as Saints by not keeping The Laws of HaShem, there is not one place in the whole of the word that makes a claim of that kind.

If we aren't under the law how can we still transgress it?

As is made clear from 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Never think that once a person is saved it becomes impossible for them to sin. As the Word clear what sin is, there is no way to get around that definition.
That in mind what does Paul tell us?
Rom. 16:5 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
1 Cor. 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
And James,
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Lastly
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Keep in mind I am not saying we sin willing, at times we simply turn a blind eye to others in need, or maybe we go the other way when we see a person that we don't want to talk to. That is not a sin in of it's self, yet if they were seeking help, or just a kind word to lift their spirit, then it is can be a sin. So you see, every one sins in some way. Many times we may not understand that is what we did.
A question, PLEASE only answer this one in your own heart. Ever find some thing on the road, or even in your yard? Then use it as if it were your own? That is a sin, the right thing to do is put it up, look for the true owner, and return it in the same shape you found it.

Romans 6:14-18
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Not servants of the law. Servants of Righteousness.

Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Do you understand what all of this is saying?

Romans 9:31-33
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

If a person doesn't attain to righteousness then what have they attained to? Regardless, we KNOW that following after the law, attempting to obey the law, is not the way to Righteousness.

SO then you have to ask yourself; are you interested in Righteousness or are you only interested in your personal interpretation of the law?

I suppose Israel must have thought that their personal interpretation of the law was pretty good, too. They must have thought they were without sin when they thought they were following it.

I guess they didn't know that it was a spiritual law but they were carnal, sold under sin.


I am not contradicting scripture here, just your corrupt version you are using. Our job is not to try and obey the law. Our job is to abide in Christ. When we abide in Christ there are no laws that are broken. When we try to obey the law there are no laws that are kept.

How is it our job to obey the law if we are dead to it? How is it our job to obey the law if we aren't under it but under Grace?

You can't just re-word scripture to fit your personal philosophy and expect real Christians to buy it. Not when it contradicts most of the New Testament.

None of them are to be "tossed out." The are part of the Word of God. What right does man have to determine which part of the Word of God needs to be tossed out?

If folks CHOOSE to believe those Laws are still in effect, that is their choice, and Scripture states that they will be judged by those Laws. For the Church, we are under the New Covenant, Grace...........the Law of Grace applies to us.

Folks spend far too much time arguing stuff for no reason other than to argue (in my opinion).

what do you mean by carnal view of the Law. explain you definition of the the carnal Law.

unsaved men should seek out sin? why would you incouridge them to seek out sin .. when you can incouridge them to seek for Righteousness in Christ,.. Why dont you incourigde them to seek Christ first. and not their sin.

A carnal view of the law would be fulfilling the spiritual law in a carnal manner. Like resting on Saturdays instead of resting in Christ by faith. Resting on Saturdays is the carnal understanding. Resting in Christ is how we grow spiritually.

An unsaved man doesn't know he needs Christ. Its not until he tries to seek out and eradicate all the sin in his life that he knows his need for the Lord Jesus Christ.

If I thought a person could just skip that step then I would encourage it. But I don't.

Hey! Blik... PTL!

Think not to toss out the OT law, but rather ask how faith in Jesus changes the law from the letter of the law to the Spirit of the law of life! Jesus lived a perfect life in obedience to both the OT law and also to the NT's commandments. The letter of the law said thou shall not commit adultery; whereas the NT tells us that to lust after another is to commit adultery in one's heart. The OT law commands that we shall not kill; whereas the NT tells us that if we hate our brother, we've committed murder in our hearts. This begs to ask, what is the Spirit for the law for the other commandments? The OT wasn't being kept, so the Lord made a New Covenant, where there is no curse for sin even though the actual standard of obedience is much greater that the OT's and where the Lord himself now writes his laws and commandments upon the tables of our hearts, which transforms us into Jesus' moral image. This is done by the Spirit who ministers righteousness to us by renewing our consciences to see sin as the Lord does, more and more. The things that we once delighted in become points of conviction as our consciences make us feel more and more guilty. True the blood of Jesus ministered to us by the Spirit purges our consciences from dead works, which the OT believer didn't have, giving us a clear conscience of the innocent. Even so, as we keep up our devotions in the word and as the Lord continues to move within us with divine patience; the knowledge of how guilty we'll feel if we continue in the sin that is being dealt with by the Spirit: will set us free from even the most persistent and compulsive sins.

Maranatha!

Have you read 2nd Corinthians Ch.3? Paul is emphasizing twice clearly that trying to find the truth about Christ in the old testament is impossible and is putting back on that veil which blinds men. Besides, who would ever want to carry out the death commands when men sinned. Jesus never advocated retaliation against another man as decried by Moses. Jesus did not give these death commands to Moses. In Mathew 5 Jesus says you have heard it said an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth but I tell you to love your enemies, and a whole list of loving ways to respond to people. Jesus would never correct Himself!

Jesus did not teach the methods of the old testament. Where Moses commanded men to kill each other because of sin, Jesus asked us to love instead. Which among you have the right to kill another when you have just as much sin yourselves? Paul teachings thoroughly emphasize the completeness of each subject in the old as being opposite to that of the. That is why the old is to be completely replaced by the new, read 2nd Corinthians 2. Men, by reading the old testament are currently being blinded by that old veil which kept the followers of Moses from understanding the ways of Christ.

Mathew 5,38 , you have heard it said an eye for an eye. 2nd Corinthians Ch.3 verse 12 and on talk about the blindness of men in the OT. Ch.4 tells us in verse 4 that it is the God of this world, or the devil, which has received men into believing the destructive ways of the OldTestament. Hebrews 8,7 for it the first had been faultless there would be no need for the second. Hebrews 8,13 that which is old does vanish away. Romans 10,4 Christ is the end of law to every believer! Ephesians 3,6 The mystery of Christ was not known before, but is manifested by His spirit now. Why do we try to scour an old testament which led almost every man to death? We should know that Jesus is the, the truth,and the life. 2nd Timothy encourages us to rightly device the word of truth so we can find Jesus to be the real love of God who does not command men to kill each other as most of Moses laws called upon us to do. It's a sure thing that the old has nothing to offer but death. We need the renewed life that Jesus offers.

Hey! RDK... PTL!

Rom 15:4 " For whatsoever things were written afore time were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

2 Cor 1:20 "For all the promises of God are in him yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Jesus said in Mt 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Jesus also said in Lu 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

The veil over the eyes of Israel isn't because they read the OT. Its because they trusted in the requirements of the law for their righteousness; rather than by faith in Jesus.

In New Jerusalem, we'll have the exact same scriptures that we have now-a-days and forever more after that! Strange that over half of the scriptures with us there in New Jerusalem is to be avoided in order to prevent our becoming blinded by that old veil, which we find out from Paul is Jesus' flesh. So the veil is removed in Christ and not by avoiding OT scriptures which is the inspired word of God.

When looking at Rom 6:14 one must keep in mind not just that one passage, rather the Whole of the Word. Yes that means from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21. So lets take that look and see what we find. ( Oh I will use the same corrupt version I uesed in my last post. Funny how it the same one you use.) There are at lest 2 takes on the phrase under the law. 1 We are free from the conviction that the Law makes to us. This conviction brings to see the wrong they have done. As you your self have made clear, the Law has worked in you. The second, and often the most over looked, or most looked at in your case. The Torah had been corupted by the religious leads of Israel. They had at one time turned to their own works, seeking to become righteous if you will, by their own power. What you seem to keep over looking is that I have said many times, with out Yeshua we have no hope.
The reason this last one stands out in the mind of many people, is that it has became a part of many church doctrines. No I am not calling it a bad thing, how ever the manner in witch you use it is. You see Paul writes of this corruption here.
2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Yes Paul was speaking of a sect in Judaism, that is true. Even Yeshua rebuked them at every turn.
As for 18, a person can not serve 2 masters. A servant of righteousness Seeks to walk in the manner of Yeshua, or should anyway. As to being made free from sin, once a person truly gives them over to HaShem, their sin is wash away by the blood of Yeshua, it is then that a person need to change their life. Doing what we can to follow the example set by Yeshua.
1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

{QUOTE=]Romans 9:31-33
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [/QUOTE]
See above.

Proverbs 14:12

Click to expand...

Once more, this has to with seeking salvation by ones own merit. It has nothing to with The Law Of HaShem.

My understanding of the Law comes from the Word, it is not something I made up, rather it comes from many years of studying it. From both the NT and OT. You see I once followed your line of thinking, and I was just as rude, and condescending as you are. Like many in this forum, when one can't debase a person on their command of scripture, they turn to seeking any flow they can find, be it real or imagined. Ever thing I understand is back by scripture, even if it doesn't line up with your understanding.

To try and transpose the matter on to Israel, is not becoming of you. Israel isn't a part of this topic, unless it is made a part of it by the Word. I once said I seen you as a man of integrity, though now I may have to rethink that. You see, by your own answers to my questions, you show that the Law is valid, that works to make sin known to us as it has always been intended to do. Yet be becouse of pride, or to save face with others, you seem to need to uphold your stand at all cost. Even if it means to speak against your own answers.


And yet Paul said.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Is it not a child that should obey their father? Is not HaShem our Father? If your answer is yes, then should we not obey Him? What did Yeshua tell us?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Or John,
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
From the beginning, that does mean from the start of time.
Now it seems that if there are no contidiction in the Word, then this, as well as what Paul tells us must line up. I have never re-worded scripture in any of my post, so you are wrong on that count. You are also forgiven for all your aligations, against me, as none are valid. I will say that I am guilty of doing much the same as you in the past. However I have came to see just how wrong that is. Once I seen that if there was any part of the Word, be it in the OL or NT that seemed to stand in conflict with my understanding of any other part, it was me that had to be wrong, not the Word. We all sin, even when we wish to say we don't, not a single person in this world can say they live sin free, not even you. That is if we are honest. I will leave you with just one more thing, that being the WORDS OF YESHUA.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Whats that? We are not a part of Israel, really? Please read Rom. chapter 11.
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
When a person keeps the 7th day Sabbath, they walking in obedience, fulfilling a spiritual hunger to spend time with HaShem, not much carnal about that. Though it does seem as though you have started useing that pharse a lot, may I ask, and get an honest answer. Most likely not, but here goes. Did you pick that up because you can find no other way to the spiritual content of this topic?

I believe prophecy is not categorized as a law.

You just expressed the carnal view of the law. And called it obedience.

If it is obedience then it is Righteousness before God. But you say that you cannot be righteous before God by your work at the law. Or, at least you seemed to agree with the simple scripture that stated so.

So which is it? And try to be honest. Are you righteous by your obedience to the law or are you righteous by faith?

If you STOPPED resting on Saturdays would you then be disobedient to Hashem and no longer righteous??

And before you say that your faith is what causes you to work at your carnal view of the law let's examine a simple scripture.

Galatians 3:11-12
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

The very gist of this topic is working at the law and thinking it will bring you Righteousness before God. If it is obedience then it is Righteousness. You can't have one without the other. Right?