What laws given in the OT should be tossed out?

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Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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A history on the sacrificial system. The first one we read of is in Gen. Chapter 4. To this point not once does the Word tell us HaShem asked for them, commanded them, or hinted of them. So when we read Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
We must keep in mind that offerings/sacrifices were given by them before they got to Sinai. As can be seen in Exo 18:12 And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.

Now if you look closely at Lev 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. You will see that HaShem said IF, not when. In this same chapter, you will note that it is to be done in the Tabernacle/Temple only. This is why in Lev. 17:1-5 we given the commandment that if one kills an offering out side of the Temple, blood will be imputed unto that man. This is a law that is binding, however it isn’t a commandment to give a sacrifice, just one that regulates how they are to be done.

Once more no temple, means that to offer a sacrifice would be sin at this time. It doesn’t negate any part of Levitical Law rather upholds it. As I stated, once the 3rd Temple is in place, you can expect to sacrifices resume. So you see, HaShem never gave a commandment to give any sacrifice other than the ones ordained in the feast, and the vow of a Nazarite. He did give guide lines as to how to offer them IF a man was to do so.

As for going back to OT times when a person was seen as righteous by their faith, not much has changed there. So that would make that point mutt would it not? After all, Abraham simply believed and what happened? Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. So a person even then was counted righteous by faith, not by works or what sacrifice they gave.

I hope this cleared that up, as I in no way intended for my words to convey what you glemed from them. Though I know I was clear, it seems that like many others I have had this discussion with, they wish to twist my words to mean what they hope they do. Not saying you are doing this, though if the past is any indication, it looks that way.
Regardless of whether there is a temple NOW or not to make sacrifices in, there WAS a temple when the Lord Jesus made this statement;

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Would you say that the Book of Leviticus contains jots and tittles of the law?

If the whole Levitical Priesthood along with their sacrifices is done away what does that say for jots and tittles of the law?

Do you consider the 10 commandments written on stone to be part of the Law?

What does Israel do when they break one of those commandments?

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
 

RDK

Member
Sep 29, 2018
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Regardless of whether there is a temple NOW or not to make sacrifices in, there WAS a temple when the Lord Jesus made this statement;

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Would you say that the Book of Leviticus contains jots and tittles of the law?

If the whole Levitical Priesthood along with their sacrifices is done away what does that say for jots and tittles of the law?

Do you consider the 10 commandments written on stone to be part of the Law?

What does Israel do when they break one of those commandments?

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
The volume of the ten commandments was not erased. Only the death penalty was removed. That is the mystery as revealed in Ephesian Chapter three,vs4 , whereby when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. Hebrews8-13, In that he said, a NEW covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to VANISH away.
As following all the jots and tittles, Jesus says that love fulfills the law, Galatians 5-14, and loving others as we love God was the greatest thing that man could do, and against this there is nothing greater. Galatians 4-21 to the end of the chapter also makes the comparison between the old and new- Tell me that you desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? This chapter goes on to say that the old law was considered as slavery and the new law is freedom.
I'm afraid that the blind people of Israel do not realize that they are free from the curse, but instead continue to obey the sentence for breaking a command-death.
I'm still surprised that any NT observer has not seen these opposites yet. Jesus brought life to the world, not sin and death.
2nd Cor. 3-14 But their eyes were blinded, for until this day remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament, which vail is done away in Christ. But even to this day, When Moses is read, the vail is back upon their heart. Even so, when we shall turn to the Lord, that vail shall be taken away
I pray that this vail of blindness shall be taken away from those people who think they can still find some life in the OT. It does not exist there. The greatest gift God could offer is life that we don't deserve. We have all failed. The law could not save us but condemn us. There was no gift of the holy spirit to the common man that he might recognize the shortcomings of the law. OT=death, NT=life.
 

Locoponydirtman

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Oct 9, 2018
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I don't find this that complicated at all. Much of the ritual and ceremonial law was given as a sign to a separated people through whom Christ would come. Christ has come and fullfilled all those ritual and ceremonial traditions.
Paul admonishes the Galatians not to get circumcised or they would no longer be under grace but the law. These were foretellers of Christ to come and now Christ has come. The moral expectations of God has never changed. One could argue they are greater now than then because now not only are we supposed to act moral we are to be moral. It's no longer good enough not to commit adultry but now it must not even be on my mind. Like I say about the 10 commandments, they are less commandments to do and more a description of who we are in the new nature in Christ.
 

Blik

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Dec 6, 2016
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There seems to be a LOT of misunderstandings, particularly of what Paul tells us. He was rabbi trained and that is how Paul taught us. He would get carried away with one subject and over emphasize that subject--like in Galatians. Paul had to get across to them about how grace and works was used by God, and he explained to people sure they could have their works accepted by God for righteousness when God saw all the people as ones with knowledge of sin so they couldn't give their work complete enough not to earn death for them. God accepted innocent blood to pay for the sin and be forgiven.

Can you imagine how you would handle it if you took on the job of changing a group of people's belief if they all were sure their wrong understanding was actually correct?

So today people read this explanation and delight in all the ways Paul told them their work wasn't what did the job it was faith. "We are not under the law". That becomes in today's mind to not listen to God's guidance. Paul would say "Heaven forbid".

As a rabbi Paul was taught to present a truth, then show any misinterpretation of what he said and say of that wrong idea "heaven forbid", then explain. Today, people quote anything for getting rid of law and ignore all Paul says in explanation.

Paul tells us we are to die with Christ, die to sin. It is paid for, done away with, we aren't under the law that tells of our sin any longer. It is the next step that is important and ignored. We are to accept the spirit of God within us and live for God, living in the God spirit. That is a spirit of love. It does NOT mean to toss out every suggestion God gives us about what is living expressing the spirit of God. Stealing, Lying, gossiping is not done in the spirit of love. We aren't to obey legally to be self righteous. That way is tossed out, we are to obey God in the spirit of love that is of God.

If we do these things like toss what God the Father tells us because he gave His Son for us we do wrong. If we toss out Moses or get rid of any suggestions for living called law that God gives we can be putting our eternal life in extreme danger. If we do these things with understanding of God, we live.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Regardless of whether there is a temple NOW or not to make sacrifices in, there WAS a temple when the Lord Jesus made this statement;

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
As heaven and earth are still here, this passage would point to the Laws validIty.

Would you say that the Book of Leviticus contains jots and tittles of the law?

If the whole Levitical Priesthood along with their sacrifices is done away what does that say for jots and tittles of the law?
It informs us that prophecy is true, and HaShem stands by His Word. As I pointed out, it wasw told that this would come about, so how could we say HaShem is true, and just if any part of what He told His prophets didn't come to pass?

Do you consider the 10 commandments written on stone to be part of the Law?

What does Israel do when they break one of those commandments?

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Yes the 10 commandments are a Part of the Law.
As it stands now Israel prayers for forgivness of sin, and they like most logical people, see their prayers as their sacrifice. Though after pointing out that by NOT giveing sacrifices, they up hold the Torah, it seems,(at lest to me) that your asking a question about it shows your lack of comprhention in the matter.
 

RDK

Member
Sep 29, 2018
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Consider the law of keeping the Sabbath holy. NT Christians think its a fine day to go to church, go out to a restaurant, then maybe hit up the football game on TV. I'm not trying to be sarcastic but any of this would be forbidden in the OT. If you made a sandwich, picked up sticks for a fire, sewed on a button, or any other kind of activity, you could be put to death. What do you think God feels about this now? He has not changed. Maybe we should start stoning people to make God happy. Can you see the stupidity of this? A loving GOD would never have asked someone to kill others for things which are perfectly acceptable now. Something else of darkness is allowing us to believe that Jesus could have been different at any other time in history.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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As heaven and earth are still here, this passage would point to the Laws validIty.


It informs us that prophecy is true, and HaShem stands by His Word. As I pointed out, it wasw told that this would come about, so how could we say HaShem is true, and just if any part of what He told His prophets didn't come to pass?


Yes the 10 commandments are a Part of the Law.
As it stands now Israel prayers for forgivness of sin, and they like most logical people, see their prayers as their sacrifice. Though after pointing out that by NOT giveing sacrifices, they up hold the Torah, it seems,(at lest to me) that your asking a question about it shows your lack of comprhention in the matter.
I completely comprehend what you are trying to say and what you are trying to defend.

What I don't understand is your inability to even acknowledge that some jots and tittles (at least) have fallen from the law.

The whole temple is gone and all the sacrifices and yet you still say that no jots or tittles have fallen from the law.

Its a pretty amazing display of Monty Pythons skit the black knight in Quest for the Holy Grail.

So, in Judaism, they pray for forgiveness of sin and pretend this is a sacrifice? What about what is necessary for atonement of sin???

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,575
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There seems to be a LOT of misunderstandings, particularly of what Paul tells us. He was rabbi trained and that is how Paul taught us. He would get carried away with one subject and over emphasize that subject--like in Galatians. Paul had to get across to them about how grace and works was used by God, and he explained to people sure they could have their works accepted by God for righteousness when God saw all the people as ones with knowledge of sin so they couldn't give their work complete enough not to earn death for them. God accepted innocent blood to pay for the sin and be forgiven.

Can you imagine how you would handle it if you took on the job of changing a group of people's belief if they all were sure their wrong understanding was actually correct?

So today people read this explanation and delight in all the ways Paul told them their work wasn't what did the job it was faith. "We are not under the law". That becomes in today's mind to not listen to God's guidance. Paul would say "Heaven forbid".

As a rabbi Paul was taught to present a truth, then show any misinterpretation of what he said and say of that wrong idea "heaven forbid", then explain. Today, people quote anything for getting rid of law and ignore all Paul says in explanation.

Paul tells us we are to die with Christ, die to sin. It is paid for, done away with, we aren't under the law that tells of our sin any longer. It is the next step that is important and ignored. We are to accept the spirit of God within us and live for God, living in the God spirit. That is a spirit of love. It does NOT mean to toss out every suggestion God gives us about what is living expressing the spirit of God. Stealing, Lying, gossiping is not done in the spirit of love. We aren't to obey legally to be self righteous. That way is tossed out, we are to obey God in the spirit of love that is of God.

If we do these things like toss what God the Father tells us because he gave His Son for us we do wrong. If we toss out Moses or get rid of any suggestions for living called law that God gives we can be putting our eternal life in extreme danger. If we do these things with understanding of God, we live.
Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

How is it you have no understanding? And yet still think you can tell OTHERS that they are putting their eternal life in danger?

I thought by now that at least one legalist (SDA, Judaizer, Hebrew Roots, etc.) would start to at least try to understand scripture. Maybe give SOME thought to some of these passages that are posted with an attempt at trying to figure out how they MIGHT be against some of your philosophies.

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Rest from what? See Galatians 2:19 (again)

B'Hatzlacha
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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You are so busy trying to find fault with my posts that you are now charging me with denying the Deity of Jesus Christ?

For instance, the sermon on the mount hardly applies to our age - but it will come alive during the millennium.
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Timothy 3:16).

If that doesn't prove that Jesus Christ is God I don't know what will.
I go with the statement of Jesus.

John 10 AMPC
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
912
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18
Consider the law of keeping the Sabbath holy. NT Christians think its a fine day to go to church, go out to a restaurant, then maybe hit up the football game on TV. I'm not trying to be sarcastic but any of this would be forbidden in the OT. If you made a sandwich, picked up sticks for a fire, sewed on a button, or any other kind of activity, you could be put to death. What do you think God feels about this now? He has not changed. Maybe we should start stoning people to make God happy. Can you see the stupidity of this? A loving GOD would never have asked someone to kill others for things which are perfectly acceptable now. Something else of darkness is allowing us to believe that Jesus could have been different at any other time in history.
Though much of this is true, it was by the demainds of Biblical Law so much as it was Rabbinic law. As the later is shown in both OT and NT to be a pervistion of the former. However to say that HaShem would not condem us for things that He said were wrong, yet many today find as acceptable would be a misunderstanding of the Word. Let me explain that one.
Tomany to day it acceptable to pray to the dead, neel at an image of one man made saint or another. Yet when we stand befoer him for judment, do you think He will over look just because man kind seen it as ok?
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
912
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I completely comprehend what you are trying to say and what you are trying to defend.

What I don't understand is your inability to even acknowledge that some jots and tittles (at least) have fallen from the law.

The whole temple is gone and all the sacrifices and yet you still say that no jots or tittles have fallen from the law.

Its a pretty amazing display of Monty Pythons skit the black knight in Quest for the Holy Grail.

So, in Judaism, they pray for forgiveness of sin and pretend this is a sacrifice? What about what is necessary for atonement of sin???

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
It would be a bit short sighted of me to say that any part of the Law has been removed, even with no Temple. After all, when the Law tells us it is a sin to offer a sacrifice anyplace we want to, then it is a sin to do that. Keep in mind that the 10 northern Tribes were removed from their home land for just that reason. Well there was a bit more going than just that, however, it was their refusal to go to the one place that IS COMMANDED as the oncly exseptal lace to make an offering, that lead to their many other sins.
As to your last question. Would you have a person pill one sin on top of another to remove the first sin? NOt the thinking of a lo0gical person.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
912
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"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Timothy 3:16).

If that doesn't prove that Jesus Christ is God I don't know what will.
You may wish to point out John Chapter 1.
 

Locoponydirtman

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Oct 9, 2018
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Ok, in the law sacrifices were made for sin. Sacrifices are no longer made because Christ full filled the sacrificial requirement of the law. In fact he full filled all the law. Now rather than circumcision of the flesh it is of the heart.
Jesus did many thing that would have made him ceremonially unclean, he touched lepers, and dead people, and a woman with issues of blood, and a prostitute. By the law Jesus would be unclean, but he wasnt. Because by the law any uncleanness of these things would transfer from the unclean to the clean. The clean would be made unclean by contact, however Christ himself was clean and touched many unclean and they were healed and raised from the dead and sin forgiven because the power of his righteousness. The emparted his righteousness to the unclean and they became clean. But he never sinned. He did not come to destroy the law but to full fill it. Now we are in him and him in us. Therefore if we touch anything unclean his righteousness is imparted and that made clean by the righteousness of Christ. "So rise kill and eat", and do not call unclean what I have made clean".
 

Locoponydirtman

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Abraham was before the law but believed God and by faith it was credited to him as righteousness, so if we also by faith believe God then we are children of Abraham who was before the law, we are children of Abraham and heirs to the original covenant which was before the law, and was the meaning of the law and is the full fillment of the law in him who was from the foundation of earth the word that became flesh and sacrificed once for all.
If you keep the law then you are subject to the whole law and are a transgressor and are doomed, because you make void the work of Christ.