Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
N
i disagree with your guess work
but your out of context OT verse means nothing in regards to the conversation 🤔
8104. shamar ►
Strong's Concordance
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shamar
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mar')
Definition: to keep, watch, preserve
5083. téreó ►
shamar: to keep, watch, preserve
Original Word: שָׁמַרPart of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shamar
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mar')
Definition: to keep, watch, preserve
5083. téreó ►
Strong's Concordance
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
His sheep do keep His commandments even if we may stumble... He abides in us... we are made new... and we hear His voice
this has nothing to do with the loss of salvation or gaining it by works as you like to push🤔
1 john 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
James 1:17 - Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέωPart of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.
His sheep do keep His commandments even if we may stumble... He abides in us... we are made new... and we hear His voice
this has nothing to do with the loss of salvation or gaining it by works as you like to push🤔
1 john 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
romans 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
James 1:17 - Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Romans 11:29
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
N
branches cut off <- He does not abide in
these represent the goats like judas
who are among us
profess to be believers
but have never been born again
there is no fruit because they have no power in themselfs to bare fruit
they will probably point to their works not knowing it is Jesus who saves.... and not our own performance
these represent the goats like judas
who are among us
profess to be believers
but have never been born again
there is no fruit because they have no power in themselfs to bare fruit
they will probably point to their works not knowing it is Jesus who saves.... and not our own performance
-
2
-
2
- Show all
So, in your view 'castaway' can only mean lost salvation and an eternity in hell? Not possible a man making shipwreck of his life whereby he is unable to serve God due to a personal failing. I know a few men called to preach that are no longer in the ministry because they failed to keep their body under subjection . . . yet they still love and serve the Lord in other capacities.
You have a serious case of tunnel vision.
Are you a Jehovah's Witness? And if you are, are you ashamed to admit it? Perhaps you fear what men might do to your membership here?
You have a serious case of tunnel vision.
Are you a Jehovah's Witness? And if you are, are you ashamed to admit it? Perhaps you fear what men might do to your membership here?
-
1
- Show all
I explained this to you before also. No fake branch is on the true vine. Do you think those who deny Jesus are going to be IN HIM? No. only those IN HIM are good branches and they are the ones referred to in John 15:2. If they do not produce fruit, they will be cut off. Same as in this scripture:
Romans 11:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
The good (those that believe and are saved), will receive goodness from God, only if we continue in his goodness, otherwise we also will be cut off. You got to get a clue sooner or later.
Romans 11:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
The good (those that believe and are saved), will receive goodness from God, only if we continue in his goodness, otherwise we also will be cut off. You got to get a clue sooner or later.
-
3
- Show all
Well, you changed the subject, and completely ignored the scriptures I posted, but that seems to be the custom of many folks on this forum.
As to me following any "law" to save me, I can't save myself. I must trust the Christ, the Word of God, in all matters of Salvation. Religious men, like those we were speaking about, will try, as the Pharisees did, and the serpent did to Eve, to trick me into trusting their religion, their voice and rejecting the Word of God. This has been going on since Cain and Abel and will continue until the Christ comes back.
The Word of God has already told me who God gives His Mercy to. But most religious men can not accept His Words.
I don't believe a person can have "Faith" in the Word of God which became Flesh, and not believe all that He says. So I know there is no "LAW" that I can follow that will cleanse my sins. It is foolishness to suggest such a thing, although before the Christ there were "Works of the Law" specifically designed for that very purpose, that the Jews were still pushing on the New Converts and the Galatians. But the Word of God had already promised a "change" in this Priesthood in which the Messiah would shed His own Blood for our transgressions. Those humble obedient servants like Zechariahs, Abraham, Simeon, Anna, all knew Him when He came to them, but the disobedient mainstream preachers of His time did not. This is an important Biblical fact regarding "Who He knows, and who He doesn't know.
Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Most religious men will work to discredit or silence any attempt to expose their religion. But some, those who have a willing heart, will believe the scriptures when it is shown to them.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
My argument has always been about the Whole teaching of the Word of God VS the Mainstream teaching of the religions of the land. It was the same for Caleb and the Prophets and the disciples. The Christ said it would be the same today. And I have come to "Believe" in Him.
As to me following any "law" to save me, I can't save myself. I must trust the Christ, the Word of God, in all matters of Salvation. Religious men, like those we were speaking about, will try, as the Pharisees did, and the serpent did to Eve, to trick me into trusting their religion, their voice and rejecting the Word of God. This has been going on since Cain and Abel and will continue until the Christ comes back.
The Word of God has already told me who God gives His Mercy to. But most religious men can not accept His Words.
I don't believe a person can have "Faith" in the Word of God which became Flesh, and not believe all that He says. So I know there is no "LAW" that I can follow that will cleanse my sins. It is foolishness to suggest such a thing, although before the Christ there were "Works of the Law" specifically designed for that very purpose, that the Jews were still pushing on the New Converts and the Galatians. But the Word of God had already promised a "change" in this Priesthood in which the Messiah would shed His own Blood for our transgressions. Those humble obedient servants like Zechariahs, Abraham, Simeon, Anna, all knew Him when He came to them, but the disobedient mainstream preachers of His time did not. This is an important Biblical fact regarding "Who He knows, and who He doesn't know.
Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Most religious men will work to discredit or silence any attempt to expose their religion. But some, those who have a willing heart, will believe the scriptures when it is shown to them.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
My argument has always been about the Whole teaching of the Word of God VS the Mainstream teaching of the religions of the land. It was the same for Caleb and the Prophets and the disciples. The Christ said it would be the same today. And I have come to "Believe" in Him.
Your LOGIC is all WRONG.
Matthew 7:20-23 (HCSB)
20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! [born again] Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
-
2
- Show all
"God opens a door that no man can shut".
I always thought the door was a door I needed to ENTER but the door is an EXIT door!!!!
Exit from the Old Covenant (Dead Works) into the New Covenant of the Finished Work of Jesus!!!
Jesus is the exit door......we are done with sin and the law.
Rejoice!!!
I always thought the door was a door I needed to ENTER but the door is an EXIT door!!!!
Exit from the Old Covenant (Dead Works) into the New Covenant of the Finished Work of Jesus!!!
Jesus is the exit door......we are done with sin and the law.
Rejoice!!!
In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, I'll never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that salvation is based on works.
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. Religious, but not right with God. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not true converts.
Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh. This is why Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! Descriptive of the lost.
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. Religious, but not right with God. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not true converts.
Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh. This is why Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! Descriptive of the lost.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Hi Ben, Jesus told the story (an allegory), of "The Vine and the Branches" to his disciples because Jesus was referring to, Isaiah5:7. and Psalm80. He was warning the disciple's what happened when Israel became "disobedient"
You are carrying this warning from Jesus to far because He will only "cut off" hangers on to the branch who produce no fruit and He will not "cut off" a true believer who will always produce fruit, even if they produce only a little fruit.
Your misinterpretation of John15:2 does not make a valid doctrine of the Church. The "Eternal Security of the Believer", is a valid well established doctrie of the Church and is supported by the bible over and over again.
Also there is a quote from William Hendriksen a well known bible scholar at the end of this post just so you will have more proof from a biblical scholar. (William Hendriksen (18 November 1900 – 12 January 1982), was a New Testament scholar and writer of Bible commentaries.)
Isaiah5:7
"Indeed Israel is the vineyard of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies,the people of Judah are the cultivated place in which he took delight. He waited for justice, but look what he got – disobedience! He waited for fairness, but look what he got – cries for help!"
Provided by bible.org
Psalm80:14-19
14) O God of Heaven’s Armies, come back!Look down from heaven and take notice!Take care of this vine, 15) the root your right hand planted,the shoot you made to grow! 16) It is burned and cut down.They die because you are displeased with them. 17 May you give support to the one you have chosen, to the one whom you raised up for yourself! 18 Then we will not turn away from you. Revive us and we will pray to you! 19 O Lord God of Heaven’s Armies, restore us! Smile on us! Then we will be delivered!
William Hendriksen , Exposition of the Gospel
Hendriksen writes, “In no sense whatever do such passages as 15:2 and 15:6 suggest that there is a falling away from grace, as if those who were once actually saved finally perish. This allegory plainly teaches that the branches which are taken away and burned represent people who never once bore fruit, not even when they were ‘in’ Christ. Hence, they never were true believers; and for them the in-the-vine relationship, though close, was merely outward. William Hendriksen, Exposition of the Gospel
You are carrying this warning from Jesus to far because He will only "cut off" hangers on to the branch who produce no fruit and He will not "cut off" a true believer who will always produce fruit, even if they produce only a little fruit.
Your misinterpretation of John15:2 does not make a valid doctrine of the Church. The "Eternal Security of the Believer", is a valid well established doctrie of the Church and is supported by the bible over and over again.
Also there is a quote from William Hendriksen a well known bible scholar at the end of this post just so you will have more proof from a biblical scholar. (William Hendriksen (18 November 1900 – 12 January 1982), was a New Testament scholar and writer of Bible commentaries.)
Isaiah5:7
"Indeed Israel is the vineyard of the Lord of Heaven’s Armies,the people of Judah are the cultivated place in which he took delight. He waited for justice, but look what he got – disobedience! He waited for fairness, but look what he got – cries for help!"
Provided by bible.org
Psalm80:14-19
14) O God of Heaven’s Armies, come back!Look down from heaven and take notice!Take care of this vine, 15) the root your right hand planted,the shoot you made to grow! 16) It is burned and cut down.They die because you are displeased with them. 17 May you give support to the one you have chosen, to the one whom you raised up for yourself! 18 Then we will not turn away from you. Revive us and we will pray to you! 19 O Lord God of Heaven’s Armies, restore us! Smile on us! Then we will be delivered!
William Hendriksen , Exposition of the Gospel
Hendriksen writes, “In no sense whatever do such passages as 15:2 and 15:6 suggest that there is a falling away from grace, as if those who were once actually saved finally perish. This allegory plainly teaches that the branches which are taken away and burned represent people who never once bore fruit, not even when they were ‘in’ Christ. Hence, they never were true believers; and for them the in-the-vine relationship, though close, was merely outward. William Hendriksen, Exposition of the Gospel
-
2
-
1
- Show all
that seems really ill-defined.
do you mean you have to make yourself 'good enough' to receive Him?
in the parable of the wedding feast, where the poor and the lame and the crippled were invited, and everyone going by on the road, someone was thrown out because they weren't dressed in the right clothes. it was evidently important not to be wearing just anything - not like a 'come as you are' party in the common parlance.
everyone needed to be dressed in special robes. where do you think they got their wedding garments? esp. the beggars?
who is the man without the right clothes?
do you mean you have to make yourself 'good enough' to receive Him?
in the parable of the wedding feast, where the poor and the lame and the crippled were invited, and everyone going by on the road, someone was thrown out because they weren't dressed in the right clothes. it was evidently important not to be wearing just anything - not like a 'come as you are' party in the common parlance.
everyone needed to be dressed in special robes. where do you think they got their wedding garments? esp. the beggars?
who is the man without the right clothes?
-
2
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God.
(1 Peter 4:1-2)
sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Romans 6:14)
(Romans 6:14)
If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.
(James 2:8)
(James 2:8)
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. For each will have to bear his own load.
(Galatians 6:2-5)
(Galatians 6:2-5)
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
(Galatians 6:14)
-
2
- Show all
Folks......what is one thing we all notice about the workers for and Cainologists in this thread...
A. They have no honesty
B. They ADD to the word or embellish it
C. The will not answer any direct quote that proves their theology false and misdirect in the process.
Salvation is SPOKEN of in ALL three verb tenses and YET a few on here STILL deceptively state that no one is saved until the END<--this is as FALSE as can be.....I sure hope those new to the faith and or weak in the faith see right through this deception that they spew.
A. They have no honesty
B. They ADD to the word or embellish it
C. The will not answer any direct quote that proves their theology false and misdirect in the process.
Salvation is SPOKEN of in ALL three verb tenses and YET a few on here STILL deceptively state that no one is saved until the END<--this is as FALSE as can be.....I sure hope those new to the faith and or weak in the faith see right through this deception that they spew.
-
5
- Show all