What is the resurrection of bodies for?

Okay, but I didn't have that at my fingertips at the moment (remember, I was getting myself a sammich! lol)

It's even quite POSSIBLE that it COULD BE at the link in the source you just provided, I don't know!

I know Plutarch is a person.

And I have NO CLUE what you are referring to, because *I am not the one stating that "definitions of words" from sources outside the Bible (though at the same time / era it was written) are illegitimate proofs of "definitions of words"... someone ELSE said that (in this thread), not me.

Well, used it as evidence so can't cite "Plutarch" as being outside the bible and claim it should be rejected.

Let's be clear here. The Word apostasia means a departing from the truth or faith. All sources confirm this. It does not mean to be "caught up" ever.

Look at it in context:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Revealed here means to be exposed like revealing truth about who he actually is not his grand appearance. His lie about being will be exposed. This is the falling away from Christ to the false christ, and then the time when will be revealed/exposed as a false god


2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


This is the lie that will be exposed.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Again, this "revealing" is tied to the second coming not the start of trib.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And this refers back to the Apostasy...the ones who believed the lie. The fell away from Christ to another Christ but this was a false instead.

The rapture is not mentioned here at all.

I already stated earlier in this thread, that 2Thess2 is covering ALL SEVEN YEARS of the man of sin and ALL HE WILL DO:

--his BEGINNING [2Th2:9a "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/parousia" and 2Th2:[BE REVEALED]--stated 3x in 3 ways in this text/context of chpt 2]

--his MIDDLE [2Th2:4]

--his END [2Th2:8]



...JUST AS Daniel 9:27[26] has his "BEGINNING," his "MIDDLE," and his "END"


[the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" is the START of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that follow on from that FIRST one, per Jesus' words in His Olivet Discourse, which I also referenced in my previous posts... (and that the SEALS of Rev6 equal "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" at the START of the DOTL time period [FUTURE])]

I never suggested such a thing (at least what it is I think you are saying, here). Perhaps you could rephrase, coz it sounds as though you are saying I said something I didn't say nor suggest. (but I can't really understand what you are saying in the sentence above)



*I* have given examples myself of "outside sources" supplying the definition and usage of that word. I have no problem with that.

^ when one examines the THREE TIMES[/WAYS] that "BE REVEALED" is used in this context (and the SEQUENCE it discloses), one can begin to see that it is indeed at the START of the DOTL time period, at the ARRIVAL ["whose COMING/advent/arrival/presence/parousia"] of the man of sin, i.e. SEAL #1 / "G5100 - tis - 'a certain one'" Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 (the FIRST "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" to follow on from this INITIAL one...) / Daniel 9:27a[26] "for ONE WEEK [7-yrs]"

(this is not to say this person does not exist on the earth prior to that moment)


….

The revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

G601
apokalupto¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.



Matthew Henry

Well, Matthew Henry was "Amillennialist" (from what I recall), so naturally I'm going to disagree with his assessment, seeing as I believe "Amill-teaching" wholly disregards CHRONOLOGY issues (as it pertains to the subject of eschatology... not to mention its inaccurate/made up definition of "the DOTL" to be meaning a singular 24-hr day).

Also, the "whose coming" (2Th2:9a) matches the Dan9:27a/26 "the prince THAT SHALL COME" (i.e. at the START of the "ONE WEEK/7-YEARS")... and then the verse goes on to IDENTIFY ..."whom the Lord SHALL CONSUME [FUTURE]…" and "SHALL DESTROY [FUTURE, at Jesus' Return]"... it is not stating that the REVEALING of the man of sin is at the same moment of Jesus' CONSUMING/DESTROYING of him (at His Second Coming to the earth, Rev19).

This is a very common take on it, but I wholly disagree based on the CHRONOLGY of the text, and its parallels (already supplied)

The point is the "revealing" is not a first public introduction but the unmasking or exposing the truth about who this liar truly is and that does happen when Christ returns. Obviously if someone claims to be the Messiah himself and people Apostatize to him from Christ, and then the real Christ returns....that is a true exposing or revaling. It's like when the wizard of Oz has curtain pulled back revealing who the wizard actually was...a fraud. That is what Paul is talking about. Again, nothing here is about rapture and the very fact that you are saying the Apostasy is a good thing for Christians to strive for is frankly very disturbing.

Do you guys know what this means?

Jesus says: I will (future tense) build my church and gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But Daniel and Revelation say he (antichrist,beast) was given POWER to overcome the saints.

That proves the SAINTS in revelation are NOT part of the church.

BUT HOW can it be? Shouldnt all who believe in Jesus be part of the CHURCH? This is what I have been arguing on here about with pre-tribbers for about a month now. HOW CAN SOMEONE BELIEVE IN JESUS AND NOT BE PART OF THE CHURCH?

I also admit that i was WRONG guys. Im sorry! I didnt do it intentionally. I apologize

It's apparent you are not reading my posts in view of trying to UNDERSTAND my points (showing the parallels and chronology and so forth), even if you continue to disagree based on arguments you present ADDRESSING THOSE POINTS.


"apostasia" simply means "departure" (we are not to INJECT "from the faith" to that basic denition)

"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is who the "Rapture" pertains to SOLELY (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods... not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints--you might agree with that LAST ONE, b/c at the time of the MK, the RAPTURE is PAST [well-past!])


I am unclear about what you are apologizing over, do you mind clarifying?

Well there is this:

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


But as far as the overcome saints in Rev:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


This proves the saints who are killed by the beast were true Christians.

No, that is part of what it means. It does not simply mean "departure". Even the definitions you have posted show that it is not anything related to being "caught up".

It is a departure from true Christ. That is the context given by Paul...those who believed lie which is that the man of sin, that Wicked is not Jesus but a false christ. Those Christians that believed the lie worshipped him and fell away from Christ in Apostasy even believing Apostasy was a good thing!

Nobody is arguing that saints who come to faith WITHIN the tribulation period AREN'T INDEED "saints / believers / saved persons"!! THEY ARE!

And as to your next point / post , you are not reading 2Th2 very carefully. You are injecting ideas (and wrong definitions of words, etc) and disregarding the SEQUENCE, and the reason Paul was writing this corrective (and how long it would have taken him to hear of their v.2 prob and send off his letter to them), etc...


"purporting that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (NOT a 24-hr day, point in time)

I have been saying that everyone who repents and puts their faith in Christ is part of the church. Yesterday today and during the tribulation (book of revelation).

But turns out, i was wrong. In the book of revelation the "saints" arent part of the church it seems. SOMEHOW.
I was arguing based on logic, not plain scripture. I learned my lesson there

Time to learn another lesson because the saints killed in the trib are part of church and loyal to Christ which is why they were killed.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Shameful to teach these martyrs are not part of church. Study more and teach less (or stop altogether).

Okay, thanks.

I think it's good to study out (as one author put it): "the real position of the Church--its calling, its standing, its hopes, its privileges!"



["the Church which is His body" Eph1:20-23, and note when; plus that it only exists on the earth UNTIL the Rapture, but ppl come to faith AFTER that point, and thus are indeed also "saints"--but they are never referred to as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" ]

Does the word of God not say the following:

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

People seem to forget that the Holy Spirit reveals the deeper things of God. Regarding this, I have told you that Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church and that in further support of this, the church is never mentioned again during the narrative of God's wrath.

I've have also told you that scripture makes it clear that believers cannot go through the wrath of God because Jesus already experienced it on every believers behalf and you did not believe that.

Let's suppose a missionary is over in the middle east. He preaches about Jesus, and some ISIS fanatics are full of wrath, and chop his head off....in wrath. Does that mean the man was 'appointed unto wrath'? Maybe he was appointed to man's wrath or Satan's wrath, but not the kind of wrath described in the verse I just quoted.[/quote]

The wrath that we are speaking about is God's coming, unprecedented wrath. It is a specific time that will take place leading up to the Lord's return. Your example doesn't fit. If a missionary had his head cut of, it would not be because of God's wrath, but because of his faith in Christ. Big difference. What is soon coming upon this earth, will be the deliberate wrath of God on a Christ rejecting world. As Jesus said, "if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prescribed time, no one would be left alive.

Because of your lack of understanding regarding that time of wrath, or as Isaiah put it, "the day of vengeance of our God. I would suggest doing a hard study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. These along with the plagues that the two prophets bring upon the earth is what will be taking place during that time of wrath.

Paul uses similar language here:

The above is an inaccurate comparison, because the scripture above is speaking about the general wrath that used to rest upon us before we were believers which leads to the ultimate wrath of being separated from God, opposed to the time period of God's wrath where the majority of the earths population will be decimated and all human government dismantled, which is quickly approaching. But first, the church has to be gathered.

"whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life and the wrath of God rests upon him.



And unbelievers still are children of wrath. And there is also a time of unprecedented wrath that will be coming directly from God in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is what the majority of Revelation is all about, God's wrath. Therefore, the reference to God's wrath, is that those who are here when the Lord gathers the church, will be trapped in that last seven years and will be exposed to God's wrath. Those who are unbelievers and die before that time, their spirits will depart from their bodies and will go down into Sheol/Hades and like the rich man mentioned in Luke, will be in torment in flame until the great white throne judgment. Therefore, the unbeliever dies before that time of wrath will end up in Hades in torment. For those who remain alive when the wrath of God begins, they will suffer wrath on the earth directly from God. And if they still don't repent and receive Christ, not only will they suffer the wrath upon the earth, but the wrath after death as well.

If by saying "the saints of the tribulation" you mean the great tribulation saints, God is not mad at them, but because they will not have believed prior to the church being gathered, they will be caught in that time period and will be exposed to God's wrath. That is why Jesus tells us in His word to "always be on the watch" because we don't know at what time the Lord will appear. Regarding this, He gave His disciples and especially believers who would be living right before the churches gathering, the following warning:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

That's only according to you. I come to my conclusions by cross-referencing and comparing scripture, not reading into them. I don't see how you can even comment on end-time events, because you're not even aware of God's coming wrath. Like so many people, you adopt a believe and then you defend it tooth and nail, instead of considering all of the related scriptures. And before say that "you do" I would refer you back to the fact that you ignore the fact that scriptures states that we cannot go through the wrath of God, but instead you provide apologetics by getting rid of or reinterpreting/distorting God's wrath. When you read that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that Jesus said that he would keep us out of that time of wrath, it means any wrath, whether the specific wrath that is coming upon the earth or the wrath after dying and suffering in Hades, as well as in the lake of fire. We are not appointed to suffer any wrath and that ag
ain because Jesus already experienced it on our behalf.