Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

No one can really explain how anyone else believes.
But, they can take what many here post, find similarities, and see that in general many are saying the same thing.

Delirious,

There are currently 2 schools of thought on these forums concerning OSAS ,and both actually agree and are the same, but explained differently.

So, in as easy I believe it can be explained I will show how I am seeing it from the other posters vs my own view.

If you some how discover people talking about Jesus (Yeshua). And you ask who are they talking about. After hearing them, you decide you want to try this Jesus. So you pray/ask forgiveness/the business of getting saved per church example...they will claim you are saved and need to attend church. But, you don't go to church, don't follow up on who this Jesus person is, just basically keep on being who you were...the idealism here is that you were NEVER SAVED to begin with.

Now, if you do just the opposite by going to church, learning more about Jesus, getting involved with scripture, and have changed your habits and things you once did.......well.......at this point, chances are you will continue because you want to. For those who want to learn and be with God, their salvation is guaranteed for the fact they themselves are not going to go back to their old ways.

So, according to everyone I suppose on these forums, the OSAS refers to:

1. We know God WILL NEVER LEAVE us once we find Him and ask Him in (repent and become saved)
2. Now everything falls onto the person in what they want (God vs old sinful life)

Consciousness:
what is in our thoughts most of the time/or/at any given time

Basically, if your consciousness is about God, then you are trying to be His follower. This includes when you sin you ask for true repentance. It means you are aware of you to God to know we need Him for everything. You are OSAS!!

If your consciousness never includes God, even after going to the alter, because you went to church with a friend and felt guilty for that one time sermon subject..........but never go back or try to live for God. You were NEVER saved so the OSAS cannot apply.


It's rather tricky understanding the minds of those who participate here. But ultimately, this is what is believed concerning the OSAS matter...:

From God's view, He never leaves us so we are secure. If God is on our view, it means we are conscious of Him because we live for Him. Both sentences then equal the perfect union to describing OSAS.

^This is how I interpret what is being said on these forums concerning the OSAS issue...

I will ask since I might have offended a brother or 2 here...(putting people in a box)

Even though this is written how I write...

Is there a point I tried to make from my view of the OSAS that anyone who does believe the OSAS way disagree with?

Because, many have posted at me when I spoke against the OSAS...and these are for the better most part...basic reasons why they believe in the OSAS!!

This is their interpretation of scripture

Try not to put people into neat, tidy boxes like "Calvinist". Many aspects of Calvinism I agree with, some I don't. so please leave the labels at the door.

OK. Second soil it is then.

Matthew 13:5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had NO ROOT they withered away.

Who is the root? If you can get your mind around WHO the Root is, then you can see they NEVER had HIM.

Also, meditate, don't just read, this passage AGAIN:
1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The parable of the sower is not about losing salvation.....Jesus brings a positive instructive message ....it is about bearing fruit.

It says that the devil takes away the word so they will not believe and be saved. This is in reference to the first soil. So the parable is about salvation.

Really, all these threads on this issue and you had to open another one.

All this study, and your conclusion is you must earn salvation,

Thats to bad, because you wasted all your time studying and did not fing Gods truth

I have spent the last 22 months studying the Bible, especially the New Testament, several hours per day. Sometimes up to 10 to 12 hours per day. I have been a Christian for 30 years but because of unemployment the last 22 months I have had a lot of time to study. I estimate I have spent about 3,500 hours studying my Bible the last 2 years.



I’m writing this post because I am concerned about a dangerous and false doctrine that permeates the Christian church.



POST CONTINUED IN FIRST REPLY

Strawman quote from Op: "
It is the doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” or “Eternal Security”. This doctrine teaches that once a person believes in Jesus, even if it is just for one moment in time, that person is saved forever. THIS IS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY CONTINUE BELIEVING OR ARE REPENTANT."


Your premise is false thus your argument is void.

One is not saved unless their BELIEF is the kind that includes repentance (admitting they are sinners in need of a favour), salvation (accepting that Jesus death on the Cross was enough to wash away their sins) and sanctification (having the seal of the holy Spirit to teach and guide you and the righteous/virtue of Christ to protect you as you gain in knowledge, self control, perseverance, brotherly kindness and agape love)

Only if you have this type of faith are you truly saved. Only if you are sealed by the Holy Spirit and told that you are a beloved child of God do you have eternal security.

Otherwise it's just false assurances of a fallen world.

Two mistakes you make right away:

(1) Brag about your study time
(2) Make a looooooong post - few people are going to read it - probably most who are posting here never really read what you wrote

I am in agreement with you that OSAS is not biblical.

Eternal security teaches […]. No lifestyle change needed. This is taught in churches all over the place.

Could have sworn she said it's not about loss of salvation, not that she said it's not about salvation at all.

Bro, seriously, if you're missing something that simple and not seeing that context, is it probable that you're missing the point elsewhere as well? I dare say yes, you're misusing and misunderstanding Scripture brother. You've got to get to what it means not just what it says. The language there is showing that there is not a genuine conversion -- it's right there in the text.

Now, can you please show us some commentary that shows the person lost salvation in that text?

Are you saying "lifestyle change needed" FOR [to obtain] salvation?

Or as a result of salvation? [and is that dependent on YOU, or on the power of Christ/God/the Spirit? (2Cor3:18 and 2Tim3:5)]

Or what?

Ephesians 1: 13-14 says, “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” So what does this verse really mean?



The Eternal Security/OSAS person does not understand this verse correctly because they keep thinking the “SEALING” is irreversible. Like the Holy Spirit is implanted within them now and cannot escape. But is this correct?



How did you receive the Holy Spirit the first time? Through faith in Christ. Who is Paul writing this letter to? The church at Ephesus. Believers. Believers. Believers.



Let me say it one more time in the hopes that it will sink down into your ears. They were BELIEVERS.



I already gave you the analogy of electricity and Jesus. So let’s think about it the correct way. If you stop believing, His Spirit leaves you. You flipped the light switch off. It’s just like the sap from the vine/Jesus in John 15. No more sap going into the branch which is you. No more of His life.



A “seal” in the Bible is a mark of ownership. In Revelation 13 we read about all the people who take the “mark of the beast” and everybody who takes the “mark” perishes. Why? Because they belong to the devil. It is a mark of ownership and allegiance. They are unbelievers.



How do I know this? Look at the immediate context that follows right after Revelation 13.



Revelation 14: 1, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”



Why is the name written on their foreheads? And why is it on their foreheads only? The “mark of the beast” in Revelation 13 is on both foreheads and hands. Why?



Because in the Bible the forehead represents the mind/heart and what you believe. The hand represents your works/actions.



We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. This is why you see the name in Revelation 14: 1 written only on their foreheads and no mention of hands. Who are these people in Revelation 14: 1?



They are the same group in Revelation 7: 1-4. What does it say there? To paraphrase the verses it says, “…don’t harm anything until we SEAL the servants of our God on their foreheads…” The number is the exact same of Revelation 14. 144,000. Rev 7 and 14 are the same group.



A “SEAL” is a mark of ownership in the Bible. Who does God own? People of faith. Because it is what you believe in your mind/heart. This is why it is only on their foreheads in Rev 14: 1. They have put their trust in Christ. When a person stops believing, God doesn’t own them anymore. They have abandoned Him. No more seal. His Spirit departs.



Paul is speaking figuratively in Ephesians 1: 13 and 4: 30 saying to those believers that they belong to God because of their FAITH IN CHRIST. AND AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THAT FAITH IN CHRIST, GOD WILL FULFILL HIS PROMISES TO THEM.



There are 80 verses and passages within the New Testament that say a person must continue to believe to the end of their life or they will not be saved. To deny this is to deny Scripture. I can list them upon request if anyone wants them.



Now having said all this, I want to offer one caveat. I believe in the ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE SHEEP ONLY. What do I mean by this?



John 10: 26-29 says, “But you do not believe, because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”



This is the favorite passage of the Eternal Security/OSAS believer. They think this means that once you are “born again” and “sealed” that it is irreversible.



Something very important in this passage needs to be noted. JESUS IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY SHEEP BELIEVE IN JOHN 10: 26. This is a logic error OSAS advocates make. This passage is a big reason why OSAS people think you “can’t lose your salvation” as they would put it.



I have already shown in this post that there are at least TWO CLASSES OF BELIEVERS. How do we reconcile this with John 10: 26-29?



In my opinion, the fourth soil, the one with the “good and sincere” hearts who bear fruit with patience, are the “sheep” of John 10 that Jesus is talking about. This is the only group of believers that will hang on to their faith their whole lives. Why?



Because they love God. And God gives them the revelation they need to keep believing. And because they love God they never leave Him or listen to anyone else and Jesus preserves them THROUGH THEIR FAITH THAT THEY KEEP ALL OF THEIR LIVES.



The second soil believers, along with the John 15: 6 believers, along with the John 2: 23-25 believers, along with the John 8: 31 believers, do not really love God. Their faith eventually dies. Why?



They leave because the road is hard and narrow as Matthew 7: 13-14 tells us and because they have “bad hearts” they go back to the world.



These BELIEVERS, and Jesus tells us they are all REAL BELIEVERS, perish eternally because they don’t hang on to their trust in Christ.



Sin hardens their heart, which is already “rocky soil” and not good to begin with, and their REAL FAITH DIES.



This is what the Scripture says. These are not my opinions. The only opinion I have given is that I believe that the fourth soil is probably the sheep of John 10. This is why I say I believe in the “eternal security of the sheep only”. But there is more than one class of REAL BELIEVERS.



Everything else I have given is Scripture alone and I believe proves that OSAS is false.



If you disagree with any of my conclusions, please use Scripture alone to tell me why. I would be happy to dialogue with you and love discussing the Scriptures.



God bless.

Jesus says of the second soil that they really believe.

He confirms it by saying life sprang up.

We are all dead in sin and there is no life in us. It only comes from God.

1 John 5: 11 says that eternal life is only in the Son. Only God possesses it. You partake of it by faith in Him.

Jesus also says the second soil falls away when tested. They lose their faith. What does Jesus say happens? They wither. They go back to being just like an unbeliever because Christ is not there anymore.

The parrallel in John 15: 6 is the same wording as the second soil. They are both attached by faith. The branch in John 15: 6 stops believing and is broken off and withers just like the second soil description.

What happens to the branch? Thrown into the fire and burned. Same thing that happens to the second soil because the details are the exact same.

The parable is about salvation.

I am aware that the OP no longer wishes to engage me in this debate, so, fair enough and I understand why: Consistent exegetical interpretation is to be rejected, thus he will not engage me for this reason since that will be my position. However, I will seek to refute the premise and teaching of the OP as it is in error and needs to be refuted for the sake of others.

It is important to note Luke 8:13, which many who deny the faith use to "prove" salvation is based upon man and his decision, being captain of their own salvation via their own decision. There is no getting around that, this is the foundational problem in the errant gospel of losing salvation.

There are many passages that refute this entire premise of decisional regeneration, man being in charge of his destiny due to his decision, deciding his way in and out of the kingdom; John 1:13 and Romans 9:16ff for instance, thus it, losing salvation is based upon a faulty foundation and error.

So what of those persons mentioned in Luke 8:13? Looking closely at the text it is easy to see their profession is in vain; They are "on a rock" and "have no root" yet "believe" for a while. All of these descriptions are to be noted. Faith based truly in Christ cannot have these types of descriptive language. Only one of these persons in the parable are granted language that describes the truly converted, Luke 8:15, which uses the word "but" showing the distinction.

We must understand that temporary belief is not genuine faith, (note John 8:30-33&c) and their faith is based upon inherent ability, themselves where there is no root, not the faith from God; Romans 10:17; Romans 12:3; Php. 1:29, Acts 3:16; Eph. 1:19 &c. Thus there is no root. It, the word is planted on a rocky, only to endure for awhile, yet again it is not genuine faith. Secondly, when testing and proving of such faith comes along (temptations; i.e. proofing) their faith is to be found not genuine, Luke 8:13b.

The OP is melding the errors of FGT with the text at hand, and since the FGT position is false doctrine, the OP is arguing a straw man and dismantling a straw man he's erected. Thus he is not dismantling the biblical doctrine of eternal security/OSAS/perseverance of the faith. That's a double fallacy and shows the inherent problem in the OP.

There was no strawman. Eternal security teaches that if you believe in Jesus you can walk an aisle, say the sinners prayer, and get saved. No lifestyle change needed. This is taught in churches all over the place.

I have shown using Scripture that a person "can lose their salvation" if you want to put it in those terms.

1 John 5: 11 says that eternal life is only in the Son. You have eternal life because His Spirit has come and quickened your spirit when you believe in Him. My post shows that if a person stops believing they perish. They are not united to Christ anymore and only God possesses eternal life.

Are you saying "lifestyle change needed" FOR [to obtain] salvation?

Or as a result of salvation? [and is that dependent on YOU, or on the power of Christ/God/the Spirit? (2Cor3:18 and 2Tim3:5)]

Or what?