Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
393
75
28
#1
I have spent the last 22 months studying the Bible, especially the New Testament, several hours per day. Sometimes up to 10 to 12 hours per day. I have been a Christian for 30 years but because of unemployment the last 22 months I have had a lot of time to study. I estimate I have spent about 3,500 hours studying my Bible the last 2 years.



I’m writing this post because I am concerned about a dangerous and false doctrine that permeates the Christian church.



It is the doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” or “Eternal Security”. This doctrine teaches that once a person believes in Jesus, even if it is just for one moment in time, that person is saved forever. THIS IS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY CONTINUE BELIEVING OR ARE REPENTANT.



I believe that the Bible does not teach this but most Christian churches are teaching this today.



Because of the length of this post I had to make 2 posts. The original post for this thread and then the first reply is also from me to finish the post. Thank you to all who take the time to read this.



Now let me explain, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, why I think that “Once Saved Always Saved” is a lie.



Let me start with John 3: 16. Perhaps the most famous verse in the Bible. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”



We also have John 5: 24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”



And John 6: 47 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”



So what do these 3 verses have in common? The Greek word for faith/believe is Pistis. It is in the present tense in the Greek in all of these verses. The present tense in Greek denotes a “kind of action” that is continuous. It means a CONTINUAL coming to Christ in faith.



The Christian church for the most part teaches that you can “accept Christ” by believing in Him and you have “eternal life”. No repentance required. No continuing in faith. Just walk that aisle and “get saved”. This is giving many people in the church a false belief that they are saved.



Eternal Life isn’t something that is deposited inside of you which is how many Christians think of it. I think the term “born again” adds to the confusion. Also people think that the sealing of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1: 13 and Ephesians 4: 30 is permanent.



BEING “BORN AGAIN” AND “SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT” ARE BOTH REVERSIBLE IN THE BIBLE. THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS THERE ARE AT LEAST 2 CLASSES OF GENUINE BELIEVERS.



How do I know these 2 things? In this post I will try to show you why these statements are true. Let me give you some examples from SCRIPTURE ALONE. Not my opinions.



You will find the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8. The version in Luke 8 is especially helpful. Let us take a close look at the second and fourth soils in these parables and also compare it with John 15 and the parable of the vine and branches.



What does Jesus say about the second soil? He says five specific things:



1 - Mark 4: 5, That the soil is rocky with not much depth of earth (a bad heart).

2 - Luke 8: 6, That it sprang up.

3 - Luke 8: 13, That in the time of testing/temptation they immediately fall away

4 - Luke 8: 6, That it withered away

5 - Luke 8: 13, That they BELIEVE for a while



The last point is especially important. I have spoken with people who believe in Eternal Security/Once Saved Always Saved and they always try and tell me that the second soil never really believed. They are calling Jesus a liar. Probably not on purpose but that is what they are saying.



Jesus Himself says that the second soil REALLY BELIEVES. That is what the Scripture says.



Now let’s look at John 15: 1-6 and see how it relates to the second soil:



In this parable Jesus is talking about remaining in Him which we do by faith. What happens to the branch in John 15: 6? He loses his faith and is broken off from the vine. So what is the fate of this branch? It is the same as the second soil.



He withers and dies. The same description as what happens to the second soil when he falls away.

And we are told in John 15: 6 the branches are gathered and thrown into the fire and burned. This is an obvious reference to the Lake of Fire and the second death.



What does it say about the fourth soil? That they hear the word with a “Good and Sincere” heart. They are good soil. They bear fruit with patience as the parable tells us.



SO YOU SEE WE HAVE AT LEAST TWO CLASSES OF REAL BELIEVERS.



One with good and sincere hearts (the fourth soil) and one with bad hearts (the second soil which is rocky). If you examine the three versions of this parable closely you will see that the condition of the soil is equal to the condition of the heart.



It also helps to look at John 2: 23-25 and also John 8: 31. These are both second soil type believers. How do we know this? What does Jesus Himself say about them in these two passages?



To paraphrase John 2: 23-25, “…many BELIEVED in Jesus but Jesus did not believe in them…” Why did Jesus not believe in these BELIEVERS? He tells you in the verses. They have bad hearts. They don’t really love Him. They won’t stay long.



Same thing in John 8: 31 when Jesus says to those that BELIEVED in Him that “…if you continue in My word then you are really My disciples…”



The Scripture in both these passages says that these people REALLY BELIEVED. The same thing as what Jesus says about the second soil and the branch in John 15.



THESE ARE FOUR DIFFERENT PASSAGES THAT SHOW THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO CLASSES OF GENUINE BELIEVERS. To deny this is to deny Scripture and call Jesus a liar. These are not my opinions.



So how does the “new birth” work, and being “sealed with the Holy Spirit” work?



To use a crude analogy it works like electricity. Please hear me. I am not saying Jesus is electricity. He is infinitely greater obviously. I am trying to use an analogy to get the point across. I am trying to get you to think about how the “new birth” and “sealing” work in the biblical way.



Like I said earlier, many Christians think the “new birth” and “sealing by the Holy Spirit” are one-time things that are permanent and irreversible. This is false. Let me show you:



Remember John 15 and the vine and branches we just talked about? Jesus is the vine and we are the branches just as the parable tells us. What does a vine do?



It pushes it’s life giving sap into the branches otherwise the branches would die. Just like electricity lights a light bulb.



Ephesians 2: 1 says that we are all dead in sins. We have all been born physically alive thanks to our parents but spiritually dead thanks to Adam and Eve and their lack of faith in the Garden.



We are all empty vessels, or empty light bulbs if you will, walking around that need to be filled with Christ’s Spirit. How does that happen?



Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3: 3, “..you must be born again…” How?



By faith in Christ. You are that empty light bulb/vessel. When you believe in Him you flip the light switch on and the electricity/Jesus heats up the filament (your dead spirit) and causes the light bulb to shine. So when people see a true Christian they are seeing Jesus shining bright through that person.



As soon as you believe you are “born again” and “sealed with the Holy Spirit”. When we read of conversions in the book of Acts it works just like that.



But can you become “unborn” and “unsealed”? The biblical answer is YES.



This terminology is a stumbling block to the person who believes in Eternal Security/OSAS. The reason it is a stumbling block is because they think the “new birth” and “sealing” are irreversible. They are not. YOUR FAITH IS ALWAYS REQUIRED YOUR WHOLE LIFE UNTIL YOU DIE AND YOUR FAITH COMES FROM YOU ALONE. JESUS DOES NOT BELIEVE FOR YOU.



It works like electricity. When you stop trusting in Christ, you flip the light switch off. No more electricity/Jesus. The filament goes cold just like when you turn off a light bulb and there is no more light. Jesus’ presence has left you because you don’t have faith in Him anymore.



This fits the exact five details that I gave you earlier about the second soil. Remember them?



1 - “Rocky Soil” = Bad heart that doesn’t really love God

2 - “Life springs up.” This one is very important. We are all born dead spiritually with no life in us. Only God has spiritual life. Their faith was real because they were attached to His life giving Spirit.

3 - “In the time of testing/temptation they immediately fall away” This is more proof of a bad heart. You can’t “fall away” unless you had real faith.

4 - “they withered away” Just like the branch in John 15 that stopped believing also. They withered because Christ’s life was in them and now Christ’s Spirit has left them when they flipped the light switch off.

5 - JESUS SAYS THEY WERE REAL BELIEVERS. The eternal security/OSAS must stop denying that this is true. Jesus says it is true. But these people have bad hearts and don’t love Him so they lose their faith and perish.



What about the “sealing by the Holy Spirit” in Ephesians 1: 13 and Ephesian 4: 30?


POST CONTINUED IN FIRST REPLY
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
393
75
28
#2
Ephesians 1: 13-14 says, “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” So what does this verse really mean?



The Eternal Security/OSAS person does not understand this verse correctly because they keep thinking the “SEALING” is irreversible. Like the Holy Spirit is implanted within them now and cannot escape. But is this correct?



How did you receive the Holy Spirit the first time? Through faith in Christ. Who is Paul writing this letter to? The church at Ephesus. Believers. Believers. Believers.



Let me say it one more time in the hopes that it will sink down into your ears. They were BELIEVERS.



I already gave you the analogy of electricity and Jesus. So let’s think about it the correct way. If you stop believing, His Spirit leaves you. You flipped the light switch off. It’s just like the sap from the vine/Jesus in John 15. No more sap going into the branch which is you. No more of His life.



A “seal” in the Bible is a mark of ownership. In Revelation 13 we read about all the people who take the “mark of the beast” and everybody who takes the “mark” perishes. Why? Because they belong to the devil. It is a mark of ownership and allegiance. They are unbelievers.



How do I know this? Look at the immediate context that follows right after Revelation 13.



Revelation 14: 1, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”



Why is the name written on their foreheads? And why is it on their foreheads only? The “mark of the beast” in Revelation 13 is on both foreheads and hands. Why?



Because in the Bible the forehead represents the mind/heart and what you believe. The hand represents your works/actions.



We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. This is why you see the name in Revelation 14: 1 written only on their foreheads and no mention of hands. Who are these people in Revelation 14: 1?



They are the same group in Revelation 7: 1-4. What does it say there? To paraphrase the verses it says, “…don’t harm anything until we SEAL the servants of our God on their foreheads…” The number is the exact same of Revelation 14. 144,000. Rev 7 and 14 are the same group.



A “SEAL” is a mark of ownership in the Bible. Who does God own? People of faith. Because it is what you believe in your mind/heart. This is why it is only on their foreheads in Rev 14: 1. They have put their trust in Christ. When a person stops believing, God doesn’t own them anymore. They have abandoned Him. No more seal. His Spirit departs.



Paul is speaking figuratively in Ephesians 1: 13 and 4: 30 saying to those believers that they belong to God because of their FAITH IN CHRIST. AND AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THAT FAITH IN CHRIST, GOD WILL FULFILL HIS PROMISES TO THEM.



There are 80 verses and passages within the New Testament that say a person must continue to believe to the end of their life or they will not be saved. To deny this is to deny Scripture. I can list them upon request if anyone wants them.



Now having said all this, I want to offer one caveat. I believe in the ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE SHEEP ONLY. What do I mean by this?



John 10: 26-29 says, “But you do not believe, because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”



This is the favorite passage of the Eternal Security/OSAS believer. They think this means that once you are “born again” and “sealed” that it is irreversible.



Something very important in this passage needs to be noted. JESUS IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY SHEEP BELIEVE IN JOHN 10: 26. This is a logic error OSAS advocates make. This passage is a big reason why OSAS people think you “can’t lose your salvation” as they would put it.



I have already shown in this post that there are at least TWO CLASSES OF BELIEVERS. How do we reconcile this with John 10: 26-29?



In my opinion, the fourth soil, the one with the “good and sincere” hearts who bear fruit with patience, are the “sheep” of John 10 that Jesus is talking about. This is the only group of believers that will hang on to their faith their whole lives. Why?



Because they love God. And God gives them the revelation they need to keep believing. And because they love God they never leave Him or listen to anyone else and Jesus preserves them THROUGH THEIR FAITH THAT THEY KEEP ALL OF THEIR LIVES.



The second soil believers, along with the John 15: 6 believers, along with the John 2: 23-25 believers, along with the John 8: 31 believers, do not really love God. Their faith eventually dies. Why?



They leave because the road is hard and narrow as Matthew 7: 13-14 tells us and because they have “bad hearts” they go back to the world.



These BELIEVERS, and Jesus tells us they are all REAL BELIEVERS, perish eternally because they don’t hang on to their trust in Christ.



Sin hardens their heart, which is already “rocky soil” and not good to begin with, and their REAL FAITH DIES.



This is what the Scripture says. These are not my opinions. The only opinion I have given is that I believe that the fourth soil is probably the sheep of John 10. This is why I say I believe in the “eternal security of the sheep only”. But there is more than one class of REAL BELIEVERS.



Everything else I have given is Scripture alone and I believe proves that OSAS is false.



If you disagree with any of my conclusions, please use Scripture alone to tell me why. I would be happy to dialogue with you and love discussing the Scriptures.



God bless.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
772
113
#3
This doctrine teaches that once a person believes in Jesus, even if it is just for one moment in time, that person is saved forever. THIS IS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY CONTINUE BELIEVING OR ARE REPENTANT.
Yes, this is totally false, I agree.

But I have never heard anybody to teach this. What I always heard and what is biblical and logical, is this:

If you are truly saved by a true faith, if you are born again from the Spirit, God will preserve you to the end. I.E. you will be repentant, you will be faithful to the end, by the grace of God.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
393
75
28
#4
Thanks for responding Trofimus.

What do you mean by true faith? When you use the word "preserve" do you mean that, after you have believed, God believes for you?

The point of my post was about two types of real believers. One believers faith dies and the others survives. Why? Because of the condition of their hearts.

OSAS claims that anyone who has believed at any point will be saved. They don't need to continue in faith because God keeps them. I agree with you that this is false.

What they are saying is that God believes for you. My post shows that to be false from the Scriptures. It is always our faith that we do ourselves through the revelation God gives us and whether we choose to believe it or not.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
772
113
#5
Thanks for responding Trofimus.

What do you mean by true faith? When you use the word "preserve" do you mean that, after you have believed, God believes for you?

The point of my post was about two types of real believers. One believers faith dies and the others survives. Why? Because of the condition of their hearts.

OSAS claims that anyone who has believed at any point will be saved. They don't need to continue in faith because God keeps them. I agree with you that this is false.

What they are saying is that God believes for you. My post shows that to be false from the Scriptures. It is always our faith that we do ourselves through the revelation God gives us and whether we choose to believe it or not.
I am not sure what you mean by "God believes for you". I think that if you are a true believer, your heart is changed, you died with Christ and live another life. Christ is in you through His Spirit and preserves you in good works, in faith, in repentance, in grace. You believe and you will always believe, because your heart, the source of the faith, is of God...

True faith is, for me, a faith that leads to a true conversion. Yeah, what is a true conversion :) We can continue in the chain until we get to God, anyway. I think we know what it means, but its difficult to technically describe.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
21,705
3,854
113
#6
post's wife was playing 'candy crush' yesterday and received a special reward: 'unlimited life for the next 2 hours'
--- temporary eternal life

"
what is that i don't even"



later, we walked around the neighborhood watching kids trick-or-treating. someone said 'hail travelers, have some sustenance to aid you on your journey' and gave me some gobstoppers.
the package said they were everlasting gobstoppers, but when i ate one, it only lasted a few minutes.
--- temporary everlasting gobstopper

"
what is this i don't even"
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
6,102
485
83
#7
I have spent the last 22 months studying the Bible, especially the New Testament, several hours per day. Sometimes up to 10 to 12 hours per day. I have been a Christian for 30 years but because of unemployment the last 22 months I have had a lot of time to study. I estimate I have spent about 3,500 hours studying my Bible the last 2 years.



I’m writing this post because I am concerned about a dangerous and false doctrine that permeates the Christian church.



It is the doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved” or “Eternal Security”. This doctrine teaches that once a person believes in Jesus, even if it is just for one moment in time, that person is saved forever. THIS IS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY CONTINUE BELIEVING OR ARE REPENTANT.
Thankfully, the word of truth tells us we are not justified by our individual faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith is not about our works, but His work on the cross. You should study Paul's letters to the church more.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Yes, with faith comes obedience, but it's the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies the believer and Christ's perfect obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
15,051
2,151
113
#8
Is there something wrong with learning all from the Master?

It is written we will b taught by God, and Jesus has invited all to learn from Him. (Matthew)

After all, Paul learned from Jesus Christ………….
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
393
75
28
#9
Thankfully, the word of truth tells us we are not justified by our individual faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. His faith is not about our works, but His work on the cross. You should study Paul's letters to the church more.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Yes, with faith comes obedience, but it's the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies the believer and Christ's perfect obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.
Thanks for replying John146 but I think you are making a distinction without a difference.

Everything you said is also what I believe. I trust in Christ alone and His finished work on the cross to save me.

That is an example of my faith in the perfect life that Jesus lived. The perfect life He lived qualified Him for the death that He died.

He lived this perfect life and became the sinless Lamb of God, slain for us all, because he had perfect faith and never sinned. That is what Paul means in those verse you cited which I am sure you are aware of.

Requiring someone to trust in Jesus' finished work on the cross until the end of their life is not "working". it is continuing to trust Christ.

The point of my post is that there are at least two groups of REAL BELIEVERS. One group perishes because they stop trusting (second soil). The other group trusts Christ to the end (fourth soil) and are His sheep that never perish.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
1,348
302
83
#10
What came to mind as I read the OP was similar to what John146 has written in his post, above.

Once we faithe on Christ (believe / trust in Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation), then "the faith of Christ" (which can be translated "the faithfulness of Christ") comes in and takes the reins. ;) . He dwells within us. And "... He abideth faithful."

Then there's also this:

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being." - 2Cor5:17 [blb]. An entirely "new creation" IN Christ Jesus.

Oh, and "Christ in you the [sure / certain] hope of glory." Col1:27


[see also Romans 7:1-4... as well as Hebrews 13:20-21 and Philippians 1:11 "by means of Jesus Christ"]
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
8,036
1,686
113
#11
Now let me explain, using SCRIPTURE ALONE, why I think that “Once Saved Always Saved” is a lie.


...This doctrine teaches that once a person believes in Jesus, even if it is just for one moment in time, that person is saved forever. THIS IS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY CONTINUE BELIEVING OR ARE REPENTANT.
Well, you won't prove your case with Scripture because it's not there. I am glad to see that you are spending time in Scripture though.

Nevertheless OSAS is true, but Free Grace Theology is a lie.

That is what you are dealing with and talking about churches teaching. It's Free Grace Theology -- many are deceived by this error and there are many popular speakers who preach it.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
393
75
28
#12
Well, you won't prove your case with Scripture because it's not there. I am glad to see that you are spending time in Scripture though.

Nevertheless OSAS is true, but Free Grace Theology is a lie.

That is what you are dealing with and talking about churches teaching. It's Free Grace Theology -- many are deceived by this error and there are many popular speakers who preach it.

I am aware of Free Grace Theology and it's advocates such as Bob Wilkin and the late Zane Hodges. I agree with you that it is a lie.

Where I disagree is your belief that OSAS is scriptural. Could you show me in my post where I was in error with the Scriptures?
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
8,036
1,686
113
#13
It is always our faith that we do ourselves through the revelation God gives us and whether we choose to believe it or not.
Faith is God's gift, not innate inherent ability or some power force we exercise at will. Salvation is also not decisional.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
8,036
1,686
113
#14
I am aware of Free Grace Theology and it's advocates such as Bob Wilkin and the late Zane Hodges. I agree with you that it is a lie.

Where I disagree is your belief that OSAS is scriptural. Could you show me in my post where I was in error with the Scriptures?
I highly doubt you'd listen, you've already convinced yourself your interpretations are correct and that salvation is up to man in either losing it, maintaining it, or gaining it.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
393
75
28
#15
Faith is God's gift, not innate inherent ability or some power force we exercise at will. Salvation is also not decisional.
You are right. You are a Calvinist and there is no point in dialogue with you. I think your viewpoint is completely in error and you think mine is. We will just have to call a truce on that one. I am not looking to debate Calvinism in this thread.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,136
2,065
113
#16
Hebrews 6
6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to [a]perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,


When we come to Christ, because the Father drew us, we have a recognition that we need a Savior. That there is nothing we did, do, or can do, that can save us, and pay our sin debt. THAT IS THE REPENTANCE! NOT turning from sin. The dead works are those things we do that make us think we are saved. If we could turn from sin BEFORE coming to, and receiving Christ, then we wouldn't have to come to Him in the 1st place!

Now if we confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in our heart, that God raised Him to life on the 3rd day, we WILL be saved.

We can only see the confession part, we do NOT know the heart part. BUT if we are truly born again, with a NEW heart, a NEW creation, filled with, and SEALED, by the Holy Spirit, we WILL remain a saved, loved, Child of the One True King.
Those that confess only, and are NOT born again, fall into THIS category:
1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

In Revelation 5 we see John weeping convulsively because NO ONE can break the Seals and open the Book, except Jesus Himself.

So in order to believe that one can lose their Salvation, you would have to believe that God is the One who breaks the Seal, removes His Holy Spirit, takes away the GIFT of Faith He gave to someone, and reseals him up so that he won't ever believe again.
No. Gifts that are by the Father and opened up, aren't taken back by him.

Now there are all sorts of things that can happen to the born again Child when he GRIEVES the Holy Spirit, and they are worth discussing. But one thing that WON'T happen is a loss of Salvation.

That your Father won't rescind your Salvation has to come by revelation, NOT a recital that you have done untold hours of study, and that with this vast amount of time studying, with your HUMAN intellect, have concluded that a person can become "unsaved". I pray you will receive this revelation.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
8,036
1,686
113
#17
You are right. You are a Calvinist and there is no point in dialogue with you. I think your viewpoint is completely in error and you think mine is. We will just have to call a truce on that one. I am not looking to debate Calvinism in this thread.
Not a problem of you bowing out because you cannot disprove the faith; Jude 1:3. Therefore you wish to debate only those you feel you have a chance to win against, or accept agreement among those who believe your misconstrued texts.

It isn't really Calvinism you'd be debating, but contextual exegetically interpreted Scripture.

"OSAS" has virtually always been the teaching of the church until false doctrine came in from Arminius and others. Even the book of Hebrews was one used extensively to prove that there is eternal security to the believer and was accepted into the canon.

Here is the problem, and it is a foundational problem of your teaching: You believe faith is innate and inherent, and that man chooses his salvation, either to maintain it, lose it or gain it. Biblically this is untrue, as faith is God's gift granted to the saved. You have man as the captain of his salvation, not God, and therefore make many errors of interpretation. Like I said, yours is a foundational problem based upon an exalted and unbiblical view of man.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
393
75
28
#18
Hebrews 6
6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to [a]perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,


When we come to Christ, because the Father drew us, we have a recognition that we need a Savior. That there is nothing we did, do, or can do, that can save us, and pay our sin debt. THAT IS THE REPENTANCE! NOT turning from sin. The dead works are those things we do that make us think we are saved. If we could turn from sin BEFORE coming to, and receiving Christ, then we wouldn't have to come to Him in the 1st place!

Now if we confess with our mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in our heart, that God raised Him to life on the 3rd day, we WILL be saved.

We can only see the confession part, we do NOT know the heart part. BUT if we are truly born again, with a NEW heart, a NEW creation, filled with, and SEALED, by the Holy Spirit, we WILL remain a saved, loved, Child of the One True King.
Those that confess only, and are NOT born again, fall into THIS category:
1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

In Revelation 5 we see John weeping convulsively because NO ONE can break the Seals and open the Book, except Jesus Himself.

So in order to believe that one can lose their Salvation, you would have to believe that God is the One who breaks the Seal, removes His Holy Spirit, takes away the GIFT of Faith He gave to someone, and reseals him up so that he won't ever believe again.
No. Gifts that are by the Father and opened up, aren't taken back by him.

Now there are all sorts of things that can happen to the born again Child when he GRIEVES the Holy Spirit, and they are worth discussing. But one thing that WON'T happen is a loss of Salvation.

That your Father won't rescind your Salvation has to come by revelation, NOT a recital that you have done untold hours of study, and that with this vast amount of time studying, with your HUMAN intellect, have concluded that a person can become "unsaved". I pray you will receive this revelation.

I agree with you that repentance is realizing you can't save yourself and that you need Jesus. Faith is holding out an empty hand like a beggar and saying, "Lord save me." Like Peter did when he began sinking in the water because he took his eyes of Jesus.

Faith is not something implanted in you. It is something YOU do as the Scripture makes clear. I don't know if you are a Calvinist but you sound like one. I don't want to hijack this thread with Calvinism.

I disagree with you on the "sealing". You are trying to equate a seal on a scroll with being the same as the sealing of Ephesians 1: 13. That is not the same thing. It is a mark of ownership in the Bible as I showed from the Scripture references in Revelation.

You didn't refute any of the Scripture references I gave in support of my view. Are you saying that the second soil doesn't really believe? This is the only argument that I ever hear from OSAS believers. But Jesus says they REALLY BELIEVE. He confirms it by saying "life springs up" which only comes from God since we are spiritually dead. How do you answer that?
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
393
75
28
#19
Not a problem of you bowing out because you cannot disprove the faith; Jude 1:3. Therefore you wish to debate only those you feel you have a chance to win against, or accept agreement among those who believe your misconstrued texts.

It isn't really Calvinism you'd be debating, but contextual exegetically interpreted Scripture.

"OSAS" has virtually always been the teaching of the church until false doctrine came in from Arminius and others. Even the book of Hebrews was one used extensively to prove that there is eternal security to the believer and was accepted into the canon.

Here is the problem, and it is a foundational problem of your teaching: You believe faith is innate and inherent, and that man chooses his salvation, either to maintain it, lose it or gain it. Biblically this is untrue, as faith is God's gift granted to the saved. You have man as the captain of his salvation, not God, and therefore make many errors of interpretation. Like I said, yours is a foundational problem based upon an exalted and unbiblical view of man.

I am not taking the bait, sir.

I don't have any problems refuting any Calvinist Scripture because I have studied them all and they are all prooftexts and false. I understand that you believe otherwise and we will have to agree to disagree.

I do not want to talk about Calvinism in a thread that is about eternal security. I am not responding to anymore of your posts unless they are about eternal security and what I posted.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
6,136
2,065
113
#20
I agree with you that repentance is realizing you can't save yourself and that you need Jesus. Faith is holding out an empty hand like a beggar and saying, "Lord save me." Like Peter did when he began sinking in the water because he took his eyes of Jesus.

Faith is not something implanted in you. It is something YOU do as the Scripture makes clear. I don't know if you are a Calvinist but you sound like one. I don't want to hijack this thread with Calvinism.

I disagree with you on the "sealing". You are trying to equate a seal on a scroll with being the same as the sealing of Ephesians 1: 13. That is not the same thing. It is a mark of ownership in the Bible as I showed from the Scripture references in Revelation.

You didn't refute any of the Scripture references I gave in support of my view. Are you saying that the second soil doesn't really believe? This is the only argument that I ever hear from OSAS believers. But Jesus says they REALLY BELIEVE. He confirms it by saying "life springs up" which only comes from God since we are spiritually dead. How do you answer that?

Try not to put people into neat, tidy boxes like "Calvinist". Many aspects of Calvinism I agree with, some I don't. so please leave the labels at the door.

OK. Second soil it is then.

Matthew 13:5 Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had NO ROOT they withered away.

Who is the root? If you can get your mind around WHO the Root is, then you can see they NEVER had HIM.

Also, meditate, don't just read, this passage AGAIN:
1 John 2:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.