No Eternal Security = No Salvation?

from what I have seen of this question, people who are really dug in can just talk past another person

I have found myself avoiding arguements here far more than I used to...which does not win me any brownie points...I am just soul tired of the whole thing

I do not think a person looses their salvation if they think they can

hope that makes sense. I am not a Calvinist nor am I Arminian. the issue is always Jesus. no one should take 'shelter' in what they believe. shelter only in Christ

just so you know. This question was asked in a few threads, and it was starting to be a topic. You just figured you would ask yourself.. so you could know what people really thought and others woudl know also.

There is nothing wrong wiht this thread. I am sorry you did not get your answer.

Mark 16:16 in the Greek:

he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved

I don't think he is saying Calvinism or OSAS was banned; I think he is saying the approach was banned: that is - discussing and asking if someone who doesn't believe in a doctrine is not saved simply because they do not believe in a doctrine.

And then people start attacking each other and getting red behind the ears!

Of course you will lose your salvation if you do this.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Well PE, You love to dislike my posts but never tell me why.
No matter.

Let me ask you this:

What saves a person?
Their faith in Jesus or their doctrine?

And therein you'll find the reply to your question.

Could you please explain to me what a non-willful sin is?

i do believe, that a salvation that can be undone is no kind of salvation at all. my faith is in an omnipotent God with an omnibenevolent will towards me: me, who is infinitely over 'par for the course'
i don't think that someone isn't saved on the basis of their believe they can become unsaved. i think of it like this - we know that food doesn't commend us to God. we are not better or worse off by what we eat ((1 Cor 8:8)). we also know that for any of us, if our conscience regards some food as unclean, it is unclean for us ((Romans 14:14)). the reality is that we are not made unclean by food - even tho we think so - and it would be in the offense of our own consciences that we be unclean were we to 'stumble' and eat ((setting aside Grace101's question about 'will' for the moment)).
so in the same way -- if we belong to Him, believing we could cease to belong to Him doesn't make it so. it wasn't by our understanding that He saved us, and in the same way my own understanding, that He will never lose me, doesn't make me lost, if it turns out my understanding is incorrect. He will convince me of the truth, in His perfect time & His perfect way.

It may not easy to explain non willful sin, but for sure the bible say No sacrifice for willfull sin.

Let think the story of Adam and Eve.

They are belong to God and had a licence to reside in the Garden of Eden. They had a permanent resident or greencard in the Garden of Eden, and God protect them, but for some reason they lose they green card

Is that mean God not omnipotent and not omnibenevolence?

In Leviticus we are told about "sin through ignorance":

Leviticus 4:

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.


It's a sin that the person does not know is sin.

It's still a sin in the eyes of God, and an offering is required and, yes, the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, was sufficient to cover sins committed through ignorance.

But that is what in the bible

Hebrew 10
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28

You gave me two verses out of the whole chaper.

Whats the context?

Please stop misusing this text.

The no more sacrifices means the sacrifices under OT law are ineffective -- Christ is the last sacrifice, reject him and you are an enemy of God as is alluded to in the text. They cannot revert back to the OT sacrificial system.

It does not mean that if you ever sin on purpose, willfully, you're now going to hell though once saved. If that were the case and protocol no one would ever be saved.

Verses 26-31. A solemn warning is now once more added. It warns against deliberate apostasy of those who have known the truth (though not regenerated). They are enemies, adversaries and for such willful going astray there remaineth no longer any sacrifice for sins "but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." -- A C Gaebelein

there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins; meaning, not typical sacrifice; for though the daily sacrifice ought to have ceased at the death of Christ, yet it did not in fact until the destruction of Jerusalem; but the sacrifice of Christ, which will never be repeated; Christ will die no more; his blood will not be shed again, nor his sacrifice reiterated; nor will any other sacrifice be offered; there will be no other Saviour; there is no salvation in any other, nor any other name whereby we must be saved. These words have been wrongly made use of to prove that persons sinning after baptism are not to be restored to communion again upon repentance; and being understood of immoral actions wilfully committed, have given great distress to consciences burdened with the guilt of sin, committed after a profession of religion;

but the true sense of the whole is this, that after men have embraced and professed the truths of the Gospel, and particularly this great truth of it, that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour of men by his blood and sacrifice; and yet after this, against all evidence, all the light and convictions of their own consciences, they wilfully deny this truth, and obstinately persist in the denial of it; seeing there is no more, no other sacrifice for sin, no other Saviour, nor any salvation in any other way, the case of these men must be desperate; there is no help for them, nor hope of them; for by this their sin they shut up against themselves, in principle and practice, the way of salvation, as follows. -- John Gill

I believe defending teh salvation of believers being forever quite edifying. But that said, brother, I am having a difficult time deciphering what you are saying above which I underlined. Could you explain this? It just doesn't make sense brother.

Let read from verse 16

1. This topic about Christ sacrifice to replace animal sacrifice because animal blood can't forgive sin

2. This letter is also say that God put law is in our heart and our mind.

3. Verse 17 say God Will forgive our sin because that is His blood for

4. Verse 18 to 25 tell us the result of verse 16, because God put law in our heart, than we Will bring ourself close to God (verse 22 draw near God with sincer heart) to me It mean the law that God put in our heart Will couse us to seriouslly longing to close to Him. People that murder every day not sincere worship God and not go to heaven.

5. Verse 26.

To me verse 26 say, after God put the law in to our heart and we still murder and robbing the bank every day, then No more sacrifice can forgive our sin anymore.

If we deliberatelly keep oN sining

After we recieve the knowledge of the truth ~ after God put the law into our heart


Hebrews 10

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c]
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
A Call to Persevere in Faith
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to Godwith a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.