Increase our Faith!

Luke 17:5-6

5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”
6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.

So, Jesus is saying a tiny, tiny bit of faith is all you need. He didn’t lay his hands on the apostles or pray for them and in the story he tells immediately after this, he seems to say that it is our duty to have such faith. In fact, Jesus is exasperated by the disciple’s inability to cast a demon out (Mt 17:14-20) because of a lack of faith.

Could it be that we are living in an age of unbelief and Jesus is really peeved with us? Should we be praying in sackcloth and ashes, like Daniel? I am not being facetious.

Now, when we (because I am sure you have all dealt with this one in your time) ask why the mulberry tree or mountain does not move at our command, I have heard lots of answers about praying in line with the will of God and not putting the Lord to the test and to concentrate on more serious matters. I have been told such faith comes from God and when I need to move a mountain, the faith will be delivered etc.

What does the forum think about this issue?

I think you should read the rest of the chapter...Jesus says that those who do what is expected should call themselves unprofitable servants. That we should not expect to be praised for doing a good job but to be called upon to serve our Master's dinner. This we can marvel at the grace that allows us to become adopted children of God invited to the wedding feast, instead of being adulterers with the world expecting God to grant wishes for the things of this world to fulfill base lists and desires

Luke 17

7 “Suppose one of you has a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Will he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? 8 Won’t he rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? 9 Will he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty

You have mentioned praying within God's will, and so it is with faith and the types of miracles you mention.

I found by experience that by availing myself I was graced with certain miraculous works of God, all glory to Him for He does the works not us.

All who believe had had at least one experience such, and I have been blessed with many, personal, harmless and rooted in God's love.

I could say the mountain dd come to me once, but that is a very long story, and it was worked for the salvation of others.

God is all powerful, ergo we call Him Almighty, yet somany who say the believe Jesus are nowhere near realizing this giant truth...…..His ways are not our ways, but His ways ae always good.

All blessings in Jesus, Yeshua...amen

It doesn't take signs and miracles to increase ones faith. It takes humbleness to realize the grace and blessings God has already given us and continues to give us each day, not because we deserve it but because He loves us

Well scrobulous , my understanding is not a measuring stick to this forum , but I'll give it just the same .

To take all the guesswork out of it , let's go right to the words and definitions the writers used to communicate this truth .

We have the noun pistis used 245 times , and the verb pisteuo used 248 times .

The noun pistis , where we get our English word Faith , is defined in the Strongs as : " Reliance upon Christ for salvation .,'

The verb pisteuo , how that reliance upon Christ is fulfilled , could not be translated into the English language . The English language doesn't have a verb form of the noun Faith as the Greek does . So the translators were forced to choose a word that would come closest to the intended meaning . They chose the words believe , believer , and believing . They could have never imagined the Carnage those 3 words will create . And this is specifically why your question has gotten no replies . Your question can't be answered in the context of what that mistranslation has done to the correct meaning .

This is the correct meaning .

Faith the noun , in it's application is pisteuo the verb . Pisteuo or how the reliance upon Christ for salvation is fulfilled is perfectly defined in the Vines Greek dictionary . It reads word for word , " pisteuo is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ." It's really 3 separate , but 3 specific parts .

So , the answer to your question , the fulfilled , accepted , Faith and faithing , ( a surrendered life ) whether just beginning ( the mustard seed ) or a finished product ( a seed that has gone onto producing a crop ) is in the same state of being. Why , because both have begun a surrendered life , maintained the surrendered life , Christ has tested and accepted the surrendered life , " THEN " sealing that surrendered life with His Spirit . Making them in Christ.

When we are in this state of being , we won't desire to ask for selfish things. The correct Hebrew , " the Lord is my Shepard , I have no wants ."

So any submissions that would come from the state of " prayer without ceasing " , would go directly into the golden bowls being held by the 24 elders surrounding the throne of God . And those " prayers of the saints " won't be opened or answered until after the seventh seal is broken . So true , correct , prayers of the saints , are not answered emediatly .

I think the moving mountains etc. is not to be taken literally but it more of a proverbial expression.

Matt 17:20 and He *said to them, “Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Paul uses a similar expression:

1 Cor 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

The above is a heretical works based salvation pretending that it is Solus Christus. We'll start with that right off the bat.

It is all based upon the person, and the errant "faithing" doctrine you're pushing, as if a person jumps through a few hoops (3 hoops it appears) then "Christ accepts the surrendered life" at some point..."making them in Christ" eventually. That's heresy, and that is what you're promoting here on CC.

People aren't saved "by the surrendered life" they're saved by grace through faith that is not of themselves; Ephesians 2:8ff.

The above teaching by pisteuo is full of so many errors, and pisteuo with your unwillingness to accept any degree of correction, they are not all worth addressing. One that will be addressed is that belief itself is God's gift, not something man exercises to gain salvation. Faith is evidence of conversion, not the cause. Note Ephesians 1:19; Philippians 1:29; Romans 12:3.

Another one may be that you're conflating sanctification with salvation, and have the cart before the horse. Not sure, but I know you're not willing to receive any correction so this will serve others so as not to be deceived by your teaching.

You didn't offer correct Hebrew, sorry, you've turned the passage into what you desire it to say. For a person who prides himself incessantly with word studies, you have this one wrong as well as the other. It doesn't mean what you say, it means we won't have any lack.

The Greek language doesn't allow work or effort to be separated from Faith and faithing . Only since pisteuo was mistranslated into the English language , was work or effort " manditorily " having to be separate . As if that would usher in an attempt to replace or better what Christ did at Calvary . " His FINISHED work on Calvary" is Grace not the Faith and faithing we are called out to fulfill .

Pisteuo is work , the hardest and easiest work you will ever do. That is if it's ever begun !

Thanks for your post. If I understand it you are saying this is a mistranslation. But you don’t tell me how you think it should be translated! The word faith is used twice in the quoted text, both times as a noun, so not quite sure what you are driving at. I get that faith in christ means one is surrendered to christ, but the object of faith does not have to be christ. One can have faith in the movement of a mountain. Of course the power of christ will be used to achieve this, but we are not talking about saving faith here. But, as you say, a surrendered person has no wish to move anything, since he is surrendered to christ. So you are saying that such a prayer is not in line with the will of God. This forces me to ask, why would Jesus make such a suggestion? He seemed to think we have ‘wants’ and that we should pray about them.

Ok! So as a proverbial statement, what does it mean? If you have a little faith, you can pray for little things? And if you have a lot of faith, you can pray for big things? But this implies that the quantity of faith is an issue and therefore the wish of the apostles should have been granted, if they were to do big stuff for God.
But Jesus answers the question as though they were on the wrong tack entirely. Like they asked, Lord I would like to be more virginal. Then the answer of Jesus makes sense. You cannot have more virginity, you either are a virgin or you are not. Jesus says even if you have a tiny bit of faith you have all you need.
That’s why I am puzzled. We should all be moving mountains and mulberry trees.

Fantastic! I was hoping someone would say, ‘Well, I haven’t moved a mountain, but I have seen the hand of God in a tangible way, so I am getting there!’ This is great news. God bless you even more!

More works salvation heresy...

Mat 3:3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: “A voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’ ”

Too bad ol' John the B didn't have one of these:

You nailed the problem . The object of Faith or faithing ( the surrendered life ) can " only " be Christ Himself , the real living person .

Not in His words , deeds , or promises . This is why todays church world is on the wrong path . Because of the mistranslation of pisteuo , ( the words believe , believer , and believing , ) God's word has become the object of Faith and faithing instead of Christ the real living person . especially at the very beginning of the salvation process when it's mandatory to do so .

And what you understand in God's word to be a suggestion , I understand to be more of a declaration of a state of being in Christ .

God's word isn't a manual of what to do and not to do , it's a mirror that reflects an accepted , tested , maintained , and Spirit filled surrendered life .

moving 'mountains' comes in many forms for us to use the Faith that God has gifted us with -
even sometimes with only a hug...

when God increases our Faith, He always increases our Love,..it's an on-going process,
'From Faith to Faith'...'Here a little, there a little'.

Informative post, thank you.

I like how Jeff Benner puts it, in his (Ancient Hebrew Dictionary), he writes: "a belief in Elohiym is not a mental exercise of knowing Elohiym exists but rather our responsibility to show him our support." This rings true to me keeping in mind even the demons "believe" and tremble.
We all would do well to study for ourselves, dig a little deeper. Modern understanding of these words, faith/believe have deviated from the mark it appears to me. Jesus warned, take heed not to be deceived, are we listening?

You have raised some serious issues and there may not be any satisfactory answers forthcoming. According to Scripture faith as little as a grain of mustard seed should be sufficient. But we simply do not see the results.

Some people say saved by faith alone confessing Christ, but here are some things to consider, for actions that are not Christlike can make a person's faith void.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Charity, love in action, is greater than faith, and faith works by love, lack in love, lack in faith.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity is not unkind, does not act wrongly, is not selfish, is not arrogant, does not think an evil thought, does not rejoice in iniquity, and if a person sins they enjoyed that sin, for if they did not enjoy the sin they would not do it, and rejoices in the truth to hate sin, and not want sin, led by the Spirit, acting Christlike.

Lack in love as the Bible describes it then lack in faith.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have love he is nothing, because love is greater than faith, and this love has to extend to every single person.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Paul said if any person preaches God blesses with money, and material things, for their wants, withdraw yourselves from them, having food and clothing be content, and those that do love money for their wants have erred from the faith.

Which James points out having works of charity, and if not then your faith is dead, for a man is justified by works, charity, love in action, and not by faith alone, and John said if a person does not have charity the love of God does not dwell in them, so do not love in word only, but love in deed and in truth, charity, love in action.

For the love of money is the root of all evil, for it neglects the poor and needy which is what it is all about, for love is the fulfilling of the law, and God created the earth to operate by people loving each other, and that includes helping the poor and needy if you can, for God only blesses us with our needs, not our wants.

There are millions of people that claim Christ that engage in sin and think they are alright with God, and hold unto sin thinking it does not affect their relationship with God, and many that go by their wants with money and material things, which we can see in society.

But then their faith is lacking because they do not abide in love like they should.

Increase our faith, which if people want to increase their faith stop engaging in sins, and holding unto sin, and think it does not affect your relationship with God, and stop going by your wants, enjoying money and material things for your wants that neglect the poor and needy.

For then you do not have love in the proper perspective, and then faith is dead.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

When Jesus comes back will He find faith on earth, for the Bible says there will be many hypocrites claiming Christ, and that is not love, and then that is no faith.

Faith is more than confessing Christ, for it is also an action to be Christlike led by the Spirit, for if not how can you love your Master who represents goodness, if you yourself do not represent goodness, for then you do not care about your Master's character.

Is the Vice President of the United States in league with the President, or is he against him.

Pro 30:11 There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
Pro 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
Pro 30:13 There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
Pro 30:14 There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

The last generation before Jesus comes back, highly selfish, highly arrogant, will not obey parents like previous generations, will be pure in their own eyes but not washed from their filthiness.

To devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men, which they will be so obsessed to heap money to themselves, millions, billions of dollars, and it is not enough, and the vast majority of people trying to get all they can get in a generation where money, and material things, flow like a raging river, because of technology.

And many saints participate in that activity.

That is why Jesus said concerning the end time, since iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold, because it is selfishness, and arrogance, and people will not like each other in that type of environment, and it is worse today than in the past.

After years of people heaping money, and material things, to themselves, and ripping and gypping, even the very people that do business with them, and made them rich, the attitude is people basically care about themselves with little regard for anybody else, so you do not care about me, I do not care about you.

And then the attitude is get all you can get, and forget everyone else, and trust no one, not even your spouse.

I wonder if that is the reason for so many people shooting other people because iniquity is abounding, and the love of many shall wax cold, and they say you do not care about me, I do not care about you, and they do not feel that much love in society as they once used to, and they are lashing out at a country that only cares about themselves for the most part.

Hey, have a nice day, hello, how are you doing, I love you, but I will not feed and clothe you, and may even rob you of all your money, and the business man thinks I will bleed you dry of all your money and leave you out on the street with your 5 kids and wife, for would you care about me if I was on the street, and homeless, and I see you are doing the same oh consumer trying to get all you can get.

Faith is more than having faith in Jesus, but it is an action to be like Jesus, for if not then no faith.

To be fair to the Disciples you speak of, the scriptures are very clear that "fasting" is key to being able to cast out demonic entities. And at the time of this particular event, Christ had not encouraged nor taught on the benefits of fasting.

Fasting gets "self" out of the way and allows faith to manifest. The one definitely benefits the other...