Not By Works

Hi decon, I'm not trying to drag you off topic but is not the human soul immortal including Adam and Eve. Some will awake to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame.

Daniel12:2
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Hi posthuman, and thank you for bringing me to a closer understanding of this discussion. I will continue to follow along.

Acts17:28
For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

Sure......every man, woman and child born are immortal and exactly why God needed two places for them.......saved with him eternally, lost separated from him for eternity in the proverbial lake-o-fire.........

Nonstudyman is trying to equate Satan telling eve that she would not die to her believing in her mind that she already had eternal life in his attempt to discredit eternal security and a grace through faith eternal salvation.......

NO where does it say or imply what he peddles....

Well first I would say that your understanding of one scripture doesn't make Void any of the Holy Word's of the Christ, the Word which became Flesh. He created Circumcision and there is a reason. And it has been a custom of Christians to circumcise their male children for centuries. So it isn't like sprinkling goats blood on an alter.

Let's look at what Paul actually said.

17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.

18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised.

Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

What does it mean to be called? Called to what? Are we not called to repentance?

Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So what was the Commandment the Word of God which became Flesh gave to Moses?

Lev. 12:
1 And the LORD, (Word of God which became Flesh) spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

So the Commandment was to circumcise the male child.

But if you read further to Lev. 26 The Christ goes on to say what will happen if His People refuse to honor His Sabbaths and Commandments. How they will be driven and scattered among the heathen. But He also speaks to repentance and the Grace that follows.

Lev. 26:
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Circumcision was a sign, but it is the heart that is to be circumcised from the very beginning as it is written..

Duet. 10:
15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

So Paul, having been given Spiritual understanding of the Scriptures, spoke of circumcision which, along with the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins, was central to the Mainstream Preachers doctrines of His time. (they had omitted parts of His Law like Mercy, Justice and Faith)

Rom. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

So your parents obey the commandment, you are circumcised, but you "transgress the Commandments of God by your own traditions" or you "Teach for doctrines the Commandments of men". These "Works" turn circumcision into uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, (Keep God's Commandments) shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

So your parents don't obey the Commandment, that's not your fault. But if your heart is circumcised, you are repentant, (turn from your religious ways to God's Word.) you have taken your cross and Followed the Word's of the Holy Christ just like Abraham did before physical circumcision, you too, like Abraham can be accepted.

So Paul isn't speaking out against Circumcision at all. He is pointing out the Lesson from the Examples he said were written for our admonition. (Law and Prophets)

So if God calls us to repentance, repent, turn to God and follow His Commandments. He created His Sabbaths for you, His Holy Days for you. Study to show yourself approved and you too will see that.

#1. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

#2. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Paul never used Circumcision as a weapon to destroy many of God's Commandments, or as an excuse to reject His Commandments as "many" who come in His name do.

Just the opposite, nothing matters but Keeping the Commandments of God.

There is a lot more scriptures which support Paul's understanding, but "many" on this form aren't capable of comprehending "long posts". That is why the Bile is so difficult for them, it is a very long post.

Gen. 3:
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (Reject the Commandment) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Note in this example written for our admonition that the deceiver used parts of God's Word to deceive, in other words, it used Judeo Christian religion to trick Eve. It tells her she is already saved. And that God's instructions are a burden that causes blindness and that to be FREE from blindness she must reject the commandment.

It seems this deception can be traced through out the Word of God all the way to Revelation. It is a fascinating study.

amen to that.
take it to heart, dude. you don't destroy the NT by quoting Mark 7:7

physical circumcision was commanded by God to Abraham.
physical circumcision was commanded by God to everyone under the Sinai covenant.

Genesis comes before Deuteronomy.
Abraham was given physical circumcision hundreds of years before Deuteronomy.
the Law also explicitly requires physical circumcision.

what then?

the Bible says this was also a sign of a covenant. just like physical circumcision.
the Bible says these were given to the nation Israel explicitly to teach them that it is Yah who sanctifies ((not themselves by their own righteousness))
if you confess circumcision should be understood and kept spiritually, apart from physical requirement, why do you do the exact opposite with the sabbath, preaching physical observance and rejecting spiritual understanding and keeping?

certainly not against the circumcision which is not by human hands.

but Paul is quite explicit about accepting physical circumcision from those who preach that believers are under the Law.
and in the Law, and to Abraham centuries before the Law, physical circumcision is explicitly required.
IMO you are completely missing and/or avoiding the point that physical circumcision very clearly raises.

Paul also says, nothing matters but a new creation. these two verses are inextricably linked.

circumcision is not for remission of sin.
it is not Levitical.
in the Law it supersedes sabbath inactivity requirements.
but in your mainstream religion, sabbath, carnal observance of it, not spiritual, is central.

how can you pretend to have a spiritual understanding of this and, though you write many words, have no answer for why it is not required in the flesh? and do not apply the same understanding to the other sign of the other covenant?

is it your doctrine that an uncircumcised male who becomes a believer should become circumcised, obeying the commandment both to Abraham before the law and to Israel in the law?

there is no such thing as 'Judeo Christian religion' at that time.
certainly now there is a mixing of Judaism and Christianity.
i know people who mix them, personally, in fact

the Serpent directly contradicted God's word saying what He had declared is untrue.
sort of like when you say we do not have eternal life by virtue of believing Christ, even though Christ explicitly says we do.

the Serpent lying again, adding to God's word, said she will be like God by eating the fruit - performing a physical work - but God declares Adam like Him because of something Adam, undeceived, believed and confessed. He doesn't say this of the Woman, even though both had eaten. He doesn't say it of Adam until he renames the Woman to Eve, mother of all the living.
what is this sort of like?

Amen posthuman, post Sinai covenant identification is to believe in God's Son Jesus Christ and how do Christians demonstrate our identification to the world today; by keeping the commandments of God? No rather we show our love of God by our love for one another.

John13:35
"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Studyman said:
"nothing matters but Keeping the Commandments of God."

Posthuman said:
physical circumcision was commanded by God to Abraham.
physical circumcision was commanded by God to everyone under the Sinai covenant.

Well I'm not sure there is a difference between someone who has been convinced they shall not die, and someone who is convinced they are immortal.

I just found it fascinating How the Christ describes the very first deception in the examples He created for our admonition.

I'm not sure how I am "reading something into it that isn't there".

But thanks for your thoughts and the kind reply

The point being it was the Word's of the Creator God of the Earth that satan used to deceive, mixed with it's own words. satan deceives through religions which come in Christ's/God's name. As it is written.

Actually what I do is post scriptures from the Word of God which say man is not saved by lip service to God alone , though "many" will call Him Lord, Lord.. This is simply a Biblical fact told me by the Christ. And I believe in this Christ.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth (Not just lip service)the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Actually the text shows instruction from God, instruction from "another religious voice" and the results of the choice made. Paul said the Law and Prophets were written for our admonition. I don't agree with your implication that satan was trying to get Eve to obey "A physical work of God" to be free. Rather, satan was trying to get Eve to reject God's Word by convincing her that God's instructions burden her and make her blind.

A direct contrast to another of God's Children.

Gen. 12:
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out ( performing a Physical work) of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: (After you get thee out)
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

I can imagine the same satan worked on Abraham to try and convince him that the "burden" of leaving your religion and family and way of life was to be rejected as well. Thank God Abraham not only heard God's Command, but "DOETH" His Sayings as well.

It's really very simple as Paul states.

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

obviously circumcision - in the carnal sense, because these things are types of spiritual truth - is not considered among 'the commandments of God' that the apostle communicates to the believers, despite it being recorded in scripture as a commandment of God to Abraham and to all his descendants according to the flesh, and also commanded to Israel under the covenant made with them in the wilderness, commanded by God, and repeatedly in the law used as a distinction between those who could come near and those who could not.

in the scripture physical circumcision is indisputably physically commanded and required. Moses was nearly killed over it. it's a big deal. but here the scripture says it's nothing, don't do it if you didn't come to belief in Christ with it done already. what matters is keeping the command of God -- even though, reading the law, it happens to be a commandment of God??

something incredibly profound has obviously happened in order for this saying to be in the text!!

who can say what it is? mm?


i can say. but i forbear, not wanting to take all the fun. plus, there's a special certain someone i would love to see confess it, and i don't want to spoil the genuineness of such a confession

these three go together.
all three teach exactly the same truth.

what matters is keeping God's commands.
what matters is faith working through love.
what matters is a new creation.

physical circumcision - despite it being the commandment given to Abraham, despite it being the commandment given in the Law - this is not keeping God's commands. this is not faith working through love. this is not a new creation.

it's a picture, a shadow, but it's not the reality. the substance is Jesus Christ

and we who believe? yes we keep it - in spirit and in truth, and not by our own hand, as though we could boast, but by the hand of God:


the truth of circumcision is amazing thanks for bringing it up @Hevosmies

I think you are confusing that with the Born Again human spirit, which is Eternal; compared to the human spirit of the unbeliever, which was born dead. That is not Dead like the body, but dead spiritually, as in NOT IN TUNE WITH GOD, NOT IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, and thus it is only concerned with SELF.

Ephesians 2:1-5 (HCSB)
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins
2 in which you previously walked according to the ways of this world, according to the ruler who exercises authority over the lower heavens, the spirit now working in the disobedient.
3 We too all previously lived among them in our fleshly desires, carrying out the inclinations of our flesh and thoughts, and we were by nature children under wrath as the others were also.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
5 made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!

Colossians 2:13-14 (NASB)
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


Now, I am going to let JESUS define what the Human Soul actually is, in this parable:


Luke 12:16-21 (NKJV)
16 Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: "The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully.
17 And he thought within himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?'
18 So he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry." '
20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?'
21 So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."


Now, with that in mind, IS NOT THE HUMAN SOUL the HUMAN BRAIN OR PSYCHE?

In fact look and what the Greek word for Soul actually is according to the Strongs:




Now contrast that to the Human Spirit:


Psalm 146:4 (NASB)
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.


That happened Upon Death, making the Story of Lazarus and the Rich Man an BIOGRAPHICAL STORY.

A number of things in that Story that Gives us HINTS that it is BIOGRAPHICAL:

1. Psalm 146:4
2. The Name LARAZUS, it is the ONLY so-called Parable by men, that JESUS USES A NAME in the Actually STORY, making it Biographical, BECAUSE HE SAID IN MAL. 3:6 HE NEVER CHANGES.
3. HE NUMBERS the actual Number of Brothers that Lazarus had, which is 5 brothers. Which would not be relevant if it were a Parable.
4. Why did HE NOT name the Rich Man then? Most like out of respect for some or all of the 5 brothers that may have been in the crowd listening to JESUS that day.
5. The most MISUNDERSTOOD part of that Story is the phrase, "in Abraham's Bosom". It is actually a Tradition in the Mid-east to walk arm in arm with a CLOSE FRIEND, and that IS walking "in your Close Friends BOSOM". Their USED to be an OLD custom where you would be called, "Yes, they are BOSOM BUDDIES." So that speaks volumes about the Abraham being there for Lazarus, when he arrived in Heaven.


Luke 16:22-23 (NCV)
22 Later, Lazarus died, and the angels carried him to the arms of Abraham. The rich man died, too, and was buried.
23 In the place of the dead, he was in much pain. The rich man saw Abraham far away with Lazarus at his side.



See the Ladies in the Background walking arm in arm too. My guess is they are wives of the too guys in this Picture.

NONE OF THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN A STORY THAT WAS ONLY A PARABLE, SO IT HAS TO BE A BIOGRAPHICAL STORY.

sure

you have to actually believe Him, for example, when He says things like


and you have to actually believe Him when He writes in His book,

do you believe Him or do you just give lip service?

the world is full of people who make it their goal to have an outward show of holiness and righteousness demonstrated by their works. full of people who look at the things of the flesh and condemn others by them while boasting in themselves. the world is full of mainstream religions which preach obedience to some set of physical commands results in approval before God. full of religious people who have an appearance of wisdom but who deny the power of God, full of people who focus on the body and think that because of the things that comprise their outward appearance they are clean. inside they are full of death and rot.

i listen to 10-12 sermons a week from random churches. i don't trust men. i always listen critically. but i have something like a broad sample of what actually comprises mainstream Christian religion. something you often say in our random false accusations, studyman, is that others are practicing 'mainstream' religion while you are the purveyor of truth. it is quite ironic, however, that what i find to be mainstream in my experience is in fact the mixing of law with grace, making grace no longer grace. the denial of the power of God and the actuality of His work. the ignorance of the efficacy of His blood and the low view of the deity of the Lord Jesus. i hear much more often a conflating of covenants and a preaching of works as a means of righteousness than i do the preaching of Jesus Christ revealed mightily in all scripture and the amazing gift of life ascribed to all who would come and drink.

*shrug* just an aside. it's interesting, the subtil dichotomy.

if you actually believe that God has made peace with you and hidden you within Himself, not by works we've done but because of your faith in Him, guess what you do?
if you believe this --


if you believe He will do this, guess what you do?
you will do this:


and you won't do it because you are afraid of punishment ((re: 1 John 4:18)) but you will do it because you know and believe who you are, and because you love Him, and because He has actually literally recreated your heart so that it desires goodness rather than evil.

i'm saying this in order to tell you that while i appreciate in a certain sense your baseless, slanderous accusations against the saints in that i believe in your confused head you are desiring to encourage us to walk in righteousness, i also desire for you to comprehend that you are doing so according to a deceived mind. i don't reject your doctrine because i wish to live wickedly, as you falsely & without knowledge so often testify -- i correct you because your argument proceeds from false premises. doubt is sin. it is unbelief. i wish it to be rid from you.

This is exactly what I mean, its PICKING and CHOOSING which commandments apply.

And the usual strategy is: You cant be saved by getting circumcised!!!!! SAVED BY GRACE AMEN! But then they turn around and say: Well now that you got saved by grace through faith you have to obey the Torah(which includes circumcision) or you will lose your salvation.

Well isnt that great.